Has IT's run come to an end?

Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
He hasn't been the same as of late, and I think it's because the starters can plan for him now. He hasn't done much on defense since his play on Westbrook, and so far has shown that he can't hang with the elite PGs of the NBA.
I've always thought that he was a great change of pace guard, and definitely better than the other team's backup PG on most nights. He was great off the bench and as a smallball wrinkle in the 4th. Now he just looks for his shots and doesn't set people up like he used to, as though he forgot what got him that starting role.

Part of the issue may be related to Smart thinking full time smallball is a great idea, so I'm willing to acknowledge that, but that issue aside, I think it's time to go back to what was winning games, even if it wasn't as aesthetically pleasing to the kiddos on board.
 
Yes. And frankly, it should never have started. He is a great role player and full of heart. In fact, a lot like Bobby J. That said, not a starter. At best, a 6th man. But he's done great under the circumstances.
 
If Donte is officially a PF.

Reke
MT
Cisco
JT
Cousins
is what I want to see immediately. Not a knock on IT. I love the guy, but never thought he'd be a full time starter. I have been worried of late though, because of certain statements from a few in our organization who basically turned the keys of the offense over to him. But now IT doesn't look comfortable, and Reke definitely doesn't look comfortable. Not sure how that's a positive. I'd bring IT off the bench as a 6th man, and if he's playing well then decide whether to ride him until the end.

I was pretty sure the organization was so behind IT at point that I wanted MT to go to the bench just to end this 3 guard, Reke at SF crap. But IT might be making the decision easier. But who knows? I'm done trying to guess what our FO/ownership/Smart are thinking.
 
I doubt our organization down shifts that fast after breathlessly diving into the hype with both feet.

Two important dates/times for this issue is 1) the trade deadline. If we bring in somebody that could obviously change things and/or give us an excuse to make a move with him; and 2) the upcoming 8 game homestand. It really is our last gasp this season (and will ironically be largely ignored while March Madness rolls on). We need to really knock it out of the park or we will officially be playing for next season by its end. Rookies, especially energy rookies, usually play better at home. If IT continues to struggle even under those circumstances and the season starts to slip away, then is when something could happen. I just don't know after you more or less throw Reke under the bus how it could be him you hand the keys back to only a few weeks later. "Um, sorry...just kidding!"
 
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You knew this was coming, teams will learn all about Isaiah Thomas and adjust to him. IT is better as the sparkplug off the bench. Though Reke is not a pure PG, his best position is still PG. Having him play SF is not going to work out long-term.
 
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I love IT but it only took a few games before teams found a good way to shut him down and being a 5'9" guy that wouldn't be hard to figure out.
I think, in the long run, this team needs Jimmer to be at least an average defender in the league because his shooting is the best compliment to Reke and DMC's inside game.
But he sucks in defense and it's really hard to root for him starting in place of IT. I still hope Jimmer to pull himself together or maybe watch John Stockton tapes.

In an ideal world, I think this lineup would be nice:
PG - Jimmer (if he learns to defend or at least stick to his man and not another foot farther)
SG - Reke (With Cisco and Jimmer all Reke needs to do is keep driving down the lane)
SF - Cisco (clearly got the hops and shooting hands back)
PF - JT
C - DMC
 
I'm not willing to buy into the premise that "IT's run has come to an end." ...yet. Has he disappointed recently? Yes. But I'm willing to give him a tad more time. However, I still do believe that long term, he is best suited for a 6th man role.

I still want to see this lineup for a game or two and see what it could bring.

DMC
JT
Greene/Garcia/Honeycutt
Reke
IT

MT off the bench.
 
The above posts all shed light or reflect what's going on. But they not only point to IT's becoming human they also point to the fact that we don't agree on an alternative, alternatives yes, but which one. If I were to make a change right now I would try leaving IT where he is, Evans at the 2, Garcia and subs at the 3 and JT and Cuz where they are (after giving Cuz regular tranquilizers).

In the second half I think we suffered on offense because we didn't put Thomas back in soon enough.
 
I didn't get to see the game because Dish puts two games on the schedule and one of them is at the wrong time with no game. My attempt to record it failed.

I'm not sure all of the critisizms are acurate. This loss fits the teams patern perfectly. That is... Play tough against some good teams and lose anyway. Then lose badly to a team we should be able to beat. Cheer up we are due for a win streak. That is if the team doesn't lose all inspiration when the season is lost, and it almost is. We have some talent. We need to draft some real PF's or maybe another Center. We will probably be in the lottery again. If we get a real coach we will win soon.
 
I never thought IT as the long term point guard was a realistic solution to our problems here. So yes, I think his run as an effective lead point guard in our starting lineup SHOULD be over. Donte didn't help his case in his last two games either, and I love Donte .. he has just been shooting the ball EVERYTIME he gets it these last two games. We can't have that in our starting unit. I like him getting PT off the bench though.

I would also start Chuck Hayes next to Cousins. Hayes has been playing well lately... the shoulder finally looks like its set and not popping out every other quarter. He has been passing well and can add another pass first/defense element to the starting unit. I'd also start Cisco for his shooting and off ball defense. He's a good helper and one of the few defenders on our team who knows how to double team a player without leaving his man completely open. I'd roll with..

Evans
Thornton
Garcia
Hayes
Cousins

With Thomas, Salmons, Donte, and JT as the other 4 in our 8 man rotation. And for the love of god, sub the starters back in with more than 4 minutes left in the fourth quarter.
 
kingsnation said:
I'm not willing to buy into the premise that "IT's run has come to an end." ...yet. Has he disappointed recently? Yes. But I'm willing to give him a tad more time. However, I still do believe that long term, he is best suited for a 6th man role.

I still want to see this lineup for a game or two and see what it could bring.

DMC
JT
Greene/Garcia/Honeycutt
Reke
IT

MT off the bench.
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^This.
 
Not unexpected! People are too quick to label someone the new messiah just as they are quick to dump them when they don't live up to it.

IT has a spot in this league but thats as a change of pace guard off the bench. He is a modern day version of Bobby Jackson but a better playmaker. Thats a good thing but he is not a starter in this league....not for a good team anyway and it was only a matter of time before teams figured out how to slow him down as a starter.
 
I knew this thread was coming thats for sure.

what was so strikingly awful about his play last night? Apart from he really didn't look to create for himself.
 
IT's run has barely just begun. He's just a rookie. People are judging him as if he were a 3-year vet. He's going to have ups and downs, and from what I've seen there are a lot more ups than downs. IT gets to practice and before games before anyone else. He's watches film. He's working at getting better. (His work ethic is reported in the media). He's good now, and in 3 years time, with that kind of work ethic, he'll be markedly better.

Last night I saw a play with IT at the top of the key dribbling the ball. There were three Suns at about the 18' mark walling off his drive to get to the basket. He passed to the right to Tyreke while Tyreke was on the move so that he could take two steps and have a clear path for a layup. There are no stats for that play. But you need those kind of plays to win games. IT has a very bright future ahead of him.
 
Kingster said:
IT's run has barely just begun. He's just a rookie. People are judging him as if he were a 3-year vet. He's going to have ups and downs, and from what I've seen there are a lot more ups than downs. IT gets to practice and before games before anyone else. He's watches film. He's working at getting better. (His work ethic is reported in the media). He's good now, and in 3 years time, with that kind of work ethic, he'll be markedly better.

Last night I saw a play with IT at the top of the key dribbling the ball. There were three Suns at about the 18' mark walling off his drive to get to the basket. He passed to the right to Tyreke while Tyreke was on the move so that he could take two steps and have a clear path for a layup. There are no stats for that play. But you need those kind of plays to win games. IT has a very bright future ahead of him.
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I think that ultimately he has to end as a guy who's priority is setting others up. You don't get very many successful, winning scorers his size other than the exceptional few. Eventually teams will have him on their scouting reports, and he'll have to make use of his quickness and ability to probe the defense to set guys up, rather than take shots. We've yet to see him run a good halfcourt offense as well, and my personal opinion is that you can't go deep into the playoffs without having a good halfcourt offense.

The improvement is certainly there, and there's no reason not to be optimistic about IT's future with the Kings. At very least we know he's an energy guy who will give his all when he's playing. Right now I just think that settling rotations and positions is a number 1 priority for the team going forward. You can't develop players or a team when guys are in and out of the rotation, changing positions every other game etc.

Here's to hoping that both IT and Jimmer become important, contributing pieces in our future team.
 
UK_King said:
I knew this thread was coming thats for sure.

what was so strikingly awful about his play last night? Apart from he really didn't look to create for himself.
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Of more concern is that he is increasngly ONLY looking to create for himself and has been skunked in both mathcups against elite PGs in the last few games. This one against Nash too, who of course is notoriously not a defender. The last thing our starting lineup needs is a 5'9" PG chucking up 13 shots to 2 assists.
 
IT can be a good pace changer off the bench. Someone who can be in the rotation, with 12-15 mins per game. But there's no way he can be a starter for a winning team. Remember he is just a rookie, the 60th pick of the draft. So he is doing a wonderful job. Just don't ask him to be our savior.

We need a real PG. I know he is old and he is not the player he was years ago, but I would really try to call Atlanta and see if they are interested in trading Hinrich for Hickson. Then IT can come off the bench and play in what should be his role.
 
Bricklayer said:
Of more concern is that he is increasngly ONLY looking to create for himself and has been skunked in both mathcups against elite PGs in the last few games. This one against Nash too, who of course is notoriously not a defender. The last thing our starting lineup needs is a 5'9" PG chucking up 13 shots to 2 assists.
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in one game. I'd hardly call it "increasingly" If this was the 4th or 5th game where he'd only mustered 2 assists i'd agree, that by definition would be.. "increasingly." He did manage 11, 5, 6, 8, 4 and 6 assists before that. But if we're going game by game then i guess yeah, we should sit him down.

I'm not surprised personally that the 60th pick rookie PG has had a hard time guarding Steve Nash and Chris Paul either.
 
UK_King said:
in one game. I'd hardly call it "increasingly" If this was the 4th or 5th game where he'd only mustered 2 assists i'd agree, that by definition would be.. "increasingly." He did manage 11, 5, 6, 8, 4 and 6 assists before that. But if we're going game by game then i guess yeah, we should sit him down.

I'm not surprised personally that the 60th pick rookie PG has had a hard time guarding Steve Nash and Chris Paul either.
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it hasn't been one game. Its his instincts anyway, but his numbers against Paul were only inflated because of the final minutes of garbagetime, he really ddi no do much against the Lakers and the numbers looked better than the impact, and then this. Now if they guy had been great all season and then hit a little rough patch its a little rough patch. When a guy's whole mythology is built over a 5 game period however, then the league adjusts and he is knocked back to medicority for the next 3, you have to begin to squirm.
 
I don't think he's going to save this franchise or anything but i genuinely think this guy gives 100% to the cause every time. He's probably been given too much responsibility too early, but i don't blame him for that. I just think it's a bit negative to be coming down on him already, at least he hasn't had a trade thread yet though, maybe in a few weeks! ;)
 
I think you have to give him a little time to recover... he is a rookie and rookies are not really known for consistency. Gotta let him play through it. What is the other option? It's not like Beno Udrih is sitting on the bench...
 
mac said:
I think that ultimately he has to end as a guy who's priority is setting others up. You don't get very many successful, winning scorers his size other than the exceptional few. Eventually teams will have him on their scouting reports, and he'll have to make use of his quickness and ability to probe the defense to set guys up, rather than take shots. We've yet to see him run a good halfcourt offense as well, and my personal opinion is that you can't go deep into the playoffs without having a good halfcourt offense.

The improvement is certainly there, and there's no reason not to be optimistic about IT's future with the Kings. At very least we know he's an energy guy who will give his all when he's playing. Right now I just think that settling rotations and positions is a number 1 priority for the team going forward. You can't develop players or a team when guys are in and out of the rotation, changing positions every other game etc.

Here's to hoping that both IT and Jimmer become important, contributing pieces in our future team.
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I agree about the rotations and positions. There has to be more of a clear cut definition of the role of each player on this team. As it is, Smart seems to be engaging more in appeasement than in defining roles. It's a "IT takes his turn, then Tyreke takes his turn" approach to point guard, for example. That may work in stick ball, but it can't work very long in the NBA.
 
I don't think it's so much as coming down on him, but possibly the realization is starting to hit that he shouldn't be the starting PG. That's not a knock on him, but more on the fact that Smart liked what he did when he was a sub, then decided to give him starter's minutes and responsibilities. Along with that, he decided to go with small ball as a starting philosophy, instead of a change-of-pace-close-the-game-out-with-your-best-ballhandlers sort of notion. I think that has really bit the team much more. Had he gone with IT and Evans at the 1 and 2, then maybe this thread doesn't happen.

Essentially what I'm saying is that IT starting at the point is not conducive to long-term success. Nowhere do I say he's bad, or that he doesn't have a role. He does. It's off the bench. I do get what Brick says, though, in that Smart probably isn't going to make the switch. I also get that we have a nice 9 game homestand where good can happen, but unless bigger picture issues like defense, roles, and rotations are addressed, it'll all be lipstick on a pig. I'm not looking at this in terms of 1 or 2 games. I'm focused on long-term growth.
 
The thing that I liked most about moving Thomas into the starting lineup is that it moved John Salmons out.

That's not a knock on Thomas. He's a great sparkplug and has absolutely earned minutes. But Salmons was really that bad. His shooting has been beyond woeful, he doesn't move the ball on offense, doesn't provide veteran leadership and his defense comes and goes in part due to being undersized at the 3. Thomas, with his energy, ball handling and passing was a breath of fresh air. And he's had some great 4th quarters.

What I still want to see is a starting lineup of Evans, Thornton, Greene, Thompson and Cousins with Thomas as the first guard off the bench. If he's got it going he gets more minutes, especially down the stretch.
 
This thread is one big joke. The Kings were ahead 41-31 with Isaiah on the floor. Cousins, Thornton and Donte Greene all sucked more than Isaiah in the third quarter.

1a: Cousins
1b: Thornton
3: Greene
4: Thomas
5: Evans

The next time Isaiah came in, the Kings were down nine, but they got within three (85-82).
 
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Spike said:
I don't think it's so much as coming down on him, but possibly the realization is starting to hit that he shouldn't be the starting PG. That's not a knock on him, but more on the fact that Smart liked what he did when he was a sub, then decided to give him starter's minutes and responsibilities. Along with that, he decided to go with small ball as a starting philosophy, instead of a change-of-pace-close-the-game-out-with-your-best-ballhandlers sort of notion. I think that has really bit the team much more. Had he gone with IT and Evans at the 1 and 2, then maybe this thread doesn't happen.

Essentially what I'm saying is that IT starting at the point is not conducive to long-term success. Nowhere do I say he's bad, or that he doesn't have a role. He does. It's off the bench. I do get what Brick says, though, in that Smart probably isn't going to make the switch. I also get that we have a nice 9 game homestand where good can happen, but unless bigger picture issues like defense, roles, and rotations are addressed, it'll all be lipstick on a pig. I'm not looking at this in terms of 1 or 2 games. I'm focused on long-term growth.
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If IT shouldn't be the point guard now, then who should? Tyreke? There we do have a large body of work to go by, not a few games. That experiment has been repeated, with the same results. And it ain't pretty.

PS It's really amazing that two games after winning Rookie of the Month that we should even have this discussion. Let's have it in two years.
 
Kingster said:
If IT shouldn't be the point guard now, then who should? Tyreke? There we do have a large body of work to go by, not a few games. That experiment has been repeated, with the same results. And it ain't pretty.

PS It's really amazing that two games after winning Rookie of the Month that we should even have this discussion. Let's have it in two years.
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John Salmons was bringing the ball up the court for stretches last night trying to lead the bench. Crazy. That should be IT.

Whatever the minute split is, the two guard spots should be covered by Tyreke, Thornton, IT, and then Jimmer as the 4th spot guy for now.
 
Jimmer is the ideal starter with someone like Tyreke at the 2. I think offensively he will get there in a couple of seasons, but defensively could be a big liability against elite pg's.
 
cuad said:
This thread is one big joke. Isaiah led the Kings to a 41-31 advantage. When they all came back in the third, Donte, Thornton and Cousins especially were all in shot-jack mode. Those of you who watched the suns broadcast last night heard the Suns commentators point that out more than once. Even after 8:00 of that, the Kings were only down 65-61. The next time Isaiah came in, the Kings were down 9 and they managed to pull within three (85-82).
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And that lead came with the starters against the subs.
 
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