Harrison Barnes Likely to Receive $88 mill over 4 Years

Tobias Harris is about to get 30 mil with VORP of 0.3. Kelly Oubre is about to get same contract as Barnes with 0.2. Maybe this stat is flawed when it comes to players contracts.
Harris had a .3 with the Sixers after the trade but his total for the year was 1.8. He's been between 1.8 and 2.0 for the last 4 years or so. He's pretty consistent. I think he's worth 25mil but not 30. For 30 you better be getting a guy who does basically everything on the court.

I really think the Oubre contract rumor is just coming from his agent. I'd be surprised if he's very far outside of 12mil a year. He's not even worth that production wise up to this point but a team will still bank on his potential.
 
Tobias Harris is about to get 30 mil with VORP of 0.3. Kelly Oubre is about to get same contract as Barnes with 0.2. Maybe this stat is flawed when it comes to players contracts.
Thats another example where you get the whole stat wrong. That Tobias Harris 0.3 VORP number is calculated on his 27 games with philly. For the whole 82 games that season his VORP was 1,8. Also anyone who is paying Oubre anywhere near 4/88mil is just stupid.

Edit: apparrently esp was little quicker to point that out
 
There is no be all end all stat that works to perfection but lets be serious here, teams aren't led by guys that average about a .4 VORP per year. Is Harrison Barnes going to lead the team? No. But his contract does. The Kings are going to give a huge part of their salary cap to a guy who is barely above average. He's going to get paid like a guy who averages 2.5+ VORP per year.

You can act like the stat lies or it doesn't matter because you think your eye test is better but in the end almost all the good players have a high VORP and almost all the bad players have a low VORP. Whether or not you care about that is irrelevant. Show me a playoff team where the stats lie and the top players average below a 1 VORP. On the flip side, show me a bad team that has a bunch of high VORP players. Neither scenario exists.

It's why a Zach Lavine team will never win anything because you let him dominate the ball and he puts up all these numbers that look impressive in the box score but in the end you just had a guy dominate the ball all year only to wind up with a measly 1.1 VORP because he doesn't really help the team win much. Same thing with Jabari Parker, Bobby Portis, Kelly Oubre and to a lesser extend, Harrison Barnes. The numbers look decent and they look good with the eye test but they don't contribute much to winning.

I like Barnes and I don't mind having what is essentially an average player at the 3 but I don't like committing that much money to that level of production. I don't know who is willing to sign here and who isn't but theoretically you could pay a little more and get a hell of a lot more back in return on the court from another player.
I think one thing I'm intrigued by is how much is value (possibly) goes up if we remove the lead option role for him (25.3, 25.2, 23.7 USG rates in Dallas) and if we see a boost from that. Had 0.2 VORP with us the final 25 games with us basically being that 3 and D complimentary role guy with positive On/OFF numbers and added consistent floor spacing. And that's without a training camp and being immediately forced into 35+ minutes with new teammates. The last 2 seasons in GSW, with a similar role and profile on the team, had 2.7 VORP over those 2 seasons (compared to being a negative player in Dallas).

Also, I think Barnes is incredibly smart and will adapt to playing that complimentary role well. Parker/Oubre/Portis/Lavine have much bigger ambitions for themselves and think they're significantly better than they really are on offense. As we've seen with WCS time and time again, having a guy actually willing to play his role on the team is really important.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
I find it interesting that the Kings' offer of 4 years, $90 M was released to the press prior to FA. ESPN had projected Barnes' salary to be $18.5M, which is 20% under the purported Kings' offer. By releasing it for public consumption, the Kings are influencing the entire "market." Agents will use the Barnes' comp to advocate for higher compensation for their clients. Bogan Bogdonovich, for example, is projected by ESPN to get a $15M salary in FA. Will his compensation end up being closer to $18M, reflecting a 20% increase over the $15M? We'll see.
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
I find it interesting that the Kings' offer of 4 years, $90 M was released to the press prior to FA. ESPN had projected Barnes' salary to be $18.5M, which is 20% under the purported Kings' offer. By releasing it for public consumption, the Kings are influencing the entire "market." Agents will use the Barnes' comp to advocate for higher compensation for their clients. Bogan Bogdonovich, for example, is projected by ESPN to get a $15M salary in FA. Will his compensation end up being closer to $18M, reflecting a 20% increase over the $15M? We'll see.
Who was it we signed a year or two back that was reported higher than it actually was. Everybody freaked out a bit. I think it may have been bogi. Was reported at like 10-12 a year ended up being 6-8
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
Who was it we signed a year or two back that was reported higher than it actually was. Everybody freaked out a bit. I think it may have been bogi. Was reported at like 10-12 a year ended up being 6-8
I don't recall, but as you imply it will be interesting to see the actual details of the Barnes' contract and compare to this public release.
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
I don't recall, but as you imply it will be interesting to see the actual details of the Barnes' contract and compare to this public release.
It was bogi. It was reported 3 years 30 mil. Ended up being 3 year 27. Not as big of a difference as I thought but still a difference in report and actual. I don’t think Barnes will be under 20 but could be a start of 18 then end at 22.
 
I find it interesting that the Kings' offer of 4 years, $90 M was released to the press prior to FA. ESPN had projected Barnes' salary to be $18.5M, which is 20% under the purported Kings' offer. By releasing it for public consumption, the Kings are influencing the entire "market." Agents will use the Barnes' comp to advocate for higher compensation for their clients. Bogan Bogdonovich, for example, is projected by ESPN to get a $15M salary in FA. Will his compensation end up being closer to $18M, reflecting a 20% increase over the $15M? We'll see.
If you were a player and I your agent, I'd ask Vlade who he would like to give the details to. Everything out in the view double downs on the sincerity of both the player and franchise.

You bring up a good point too.

Maybe there is some benefit setting a market price to possibly cost other teams a tad bit more in FA.
 
I'm in the overpaid camp with Barnes, and am a bit annoyed about it. You hope he has a nice uptick in stats, but not expecting it. I am looking forward to the prospect that the Kings overpay for Vucevic who seems more worth the overpay. I'm not too enthused about the idea of Capella at all. Horford would be ok at a shorter contract.
 
I think one thing I'm intrigued by is how much is value (possibly) goes up if we remove the lead option role for him (25.3, 25.2, 23.7 USG rates in Dallas) and if we see a boost from that. Had 0.2 VORP with us the final 25 games with us basically being that 3 and D complimentary role guy with positive On/OFF numbers and added consistent floor spacing. And that's without a training camp and being immediately forced into 35+ minutes with new teammates. The last 2 seasons in GSW, with a similar role and profile on the team, had 2.7 VORP over those 2 seasons (compared to being a negative player in Dallas).

Also, I think Barnes is incredibly smart and will adapt to playing that complimentary role well. Parker/Oubre/Portis/Lavine have much bigger ambitions for themselves and think they're significantly better than they really are on offense. As we've seen with WCS time and time again, having a guy actually willing to play his role on the team is really important.
Yeah the thing about Barnes is his VORP goes down as his usage goes up because he's not an efficient volume shooter and doesn't have the defense to make up for it. I think he will be somewhere in between what he would have averaged with us last season (0.6) and his best year in GS (1.8). Probably around 0.8-1.0 or so if I had to guess. As you know, VORP numbers inflate a bit on better teams so I wouldn't count on him reaching his GS levels but he's obviously not going to be as bad as his Dallas levels were either.

I like Barnes and I thought he came in and fit in as well as he possibly could last year. I was a bit worried that he would try and be Dallas Barnes but he didn't do that at all. I just don't think he's worth the contract is all. I think the over payment could have been made elsewhere on better players to get a better bang for your buck and to fill more holes on the team. I would have rather over paid a better player in Beverly/Brogdon and then found a deal on a guy like Aminu. At that point you just keep WCS for depth at the 5. I think the bang for the buck there is better than what I consider a negative deal in this one (paying 22mil for a guy who struggles to even get 1 VORP).

Lets say the best case, semi realistic scenario the Kings have this offseason is they wind up with Barnes, Joseph and Dedmon.

My plan would be to go after Aminu, over pay Beverly and keep WCS which I think is fairly realistic. I think the Kings would wind up spending roughly the same amount of money in each scenario.

VORP - Barnes/Joseph/Dedmon = 2.7 (I'm rounding Barnes' VORP to 0.6 since he had a 0.2 and played 1/3 of the season with us)

VORP - Aminu/Beverly/WCS = 6.3

The 2nd group gives up a little bit shooting wise but they are much better defensively and would completely change the look of the team from a bunch of young run and gunners that jack up shots to a team that can not only score, but will make you work on the other end of the court.
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
I'm in the overpaid camp with Barnes, and am a bit annoyed about it. You hope he has a nice uptick in stats, but not expecting it. I am looking forward to the prospect that the Kings overpay for Vucevic who seems more worth the overpay. I'm not too enthused about the idea of Capella at all. Horford would be ok at a shorter contract.
What kind of uptick in stats are you looking for. 18-19 pts 5-6 reb and 38% or better 3pt% is pretty darn good
 
Yeah the thing about Barnes is his VORP goes down as his usage goes up because he's not an efficient volume shooter and doesn't have the defense to make up for it. I think he will be somewhere in between what he would have averaged with us last season (0.6) and his best year in GS (1.8). Probably around 0.8-1.0 or so if I had to guess. As you know, VORP numbers inflate a bit on better teams so I wouldn't count on him reaching his GS levels but he's obviously not going to be as bad as his Dallas levels were either.

I like Barnes and I thought he came in and fit in as well as he possibly could last year. I was a bit worried that he would try and be Dallas Barnes but he didn't do that at all. I just don't think he's worth the contract is all. I think the over payment could have been made elsewhere on better players to get a better bang for your buck and to fill more holes on the team. I would have rather over paid a better player in Beverly/Brogdon and then found a deal on a guy like Aminu. At that point you just keep WCS for depth at the 5. I think the bang for the buck there is better than what I consider a negative deal in this one (paying 22mil for a guy who struggles to even get 1 VORP).

Lets say the best case, semi realistic scenario the Kings have this offseason is they wind up with Barnes, Joseph and Dedmon.

My plan would be to go after Aminu, over pay Beverly and keep WCS which I think is fairly realistic. I think the Kings would wind up spending roughly the same amount of money in each scenario.

VORP - Barnes/Joseph/Dedmon = 2.7 (I'm rounding Barnes' VORP to 0.6 since he had a 0.2 and played 1/3 of the season with us)

VORP - Aminu/Beverly/WCS = 6.3

The 2nd group gives up a little bit shooting wise but they are much better defensively and would completely change the look of the team from a bunch of young run and gunners that jack up shots to a team that can not only score, but will make you work on the other end of the court.
Anyone who wants WCS back cannot be taken seriously. Who the heck cares about VORP or any other statistic out there when you have WCS bricking half his free throws and thinking he’s Kareem but yet can’t finish a layup.

I’d take the first group 10/10 times just because Willie isn’t on it. He’s not starter material and does not belong out there. He is our weakest link at all times out on the court. He’s lost us games repeatedly. No one wants him back.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
Anyone who wants WCS back cannot be taken seriously.
Of course they can.

No one wants him back.
Clearly some do. There's no hive mind here. One shouldn't conflate the idea that the anti-WCS contingent here is the loudest with the idea that the anti-WCS contingent here is right.
 
Anyone who wants WCS back cannot be taken seriously. Who the heck cares about VORP or any other statistic out there when you have WCS bricking half his free throws and thinking he’s Kareem but yet can’t finish a layup.

I’d take the first group 10/10 times just because Willie isn’t on it. He’s not starter material and does not belong out there. He is our weakest link at all times out on the court. He’s lost us games repeatedly. No one wants him back.
I want him back, and not just because he had the best VORP amongst Kings last year. For all the scapegoating WCS gets, he was our best rebounder, shot the highest percentage from the field, was second behind Fox in steals, and fourth in assists. He had a total of 3 games below 4 rebounds all season and a thousand comments claiming wild inconsistency in rebounds ("..and next game it would be 0/1/2"). i hope we keep him.
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
I want him back, and not just because he had the best VORP amongst Kings last year. For all the scapegoating WCS gets, he was our best rebounder, shot the highest percentage from the field, was second behind Fox in steals, and fourth in assists. He had a total of 3 games below 4 rebounds all season and a thousand comments claiming wild inconsistency in rebounds ("..and next game it would be 0/1/2"). i hope we keep him.
When I saw you put up the 4 rebound stat all that told me is I should look. Because cherry picking theneat number to get the lowest total is generally what people do. So to expand on that rebounding. He had 33 games of 5 reb or less
 
When I saw you put up the 4 rebound stat all that told me is I should look. Because cherry picking theneat number to get the lowest total is generally what people do. So to expand on that rebounding. He had 33 games of 5 reb or less
Where did you look because that is wrong. he had 66 games of 6 and more rebounds, and 15 games of 5 and less.
 
I want him back, and not just because he had the best VORP amongst Kings last year. For all the scapegoating WCS gets, he was our best rebounder, shot the highest percentage from the field, was second behind Fox in steals, and fourth in assists. He had a total of 3 games below 4 rebounds all season and a thousand comments claiming wild inconsistency in rebounds ("..and next game it would be 0/1/2"). i hope we keep him.
I would want to keep him too if he realized who and what he is as a player. Instead, he has these visions of grandeur of himself, but yet his play is inconsistent at best. Stats don’t tell you the whole story. I watched most of the games last season and his problem is what’s between the ears. Lack of effort, heart whatever you want to call it. He doesn’t have it and he never will.

He was given more chances than a player of his caliber deserves, but yet did nothing that really stood out, apart from letting three straight opposing centers grab 20 plus rebounds on him each. His free throw percentage has declined with each year in the league. This is not a hard working guy folks. He is in it for the money only and the good times.

He had no competition last year for the C spot. None. We were small and mobile and yes he runs the floor well, but has the worst layup percentage in the league or is right up there. That’s like going hunting without any bullets in your rifle, what’s the point?

He has the physical capability of being so much more, but he refuses to acknowledge the type of role he should be playing. If he stays it’s going to be messy. He will be upset that he is still here and not being Kareem somewhere else.

I acknowledge I was overly aggressive with my initial statement, but how can anyone argue with the above? He is a fringe starter on a bad team and it showed. He simply cannot keep focus long enough during the season and cost us games with his lack of rebounding and poor free throw percentage. Instead of owning up to any deficiencies as a player, he comes out via agent and says we did not let him thrive as a player? Please.

Guy is delusional and needs to take his act elsewhere. Luckily, there are quite a few better big men available this offseason and we have lots of money to spend.
 
Anyone who wants WCS back cannot be taken seriously. Who the heck cares about VORP or any other statistic out there when you have WCS bricking half his free throws and thinking he’s Kareem but yet can’t finish a layup.

I’d take the first group 10/10 times just because Willie isn’t on it. He’s not starter material and does not belong out there. He is our weakest link at all times out on the court. He’s lost us games repeatedly. No one wants him back.
I don't "want" WCS back either but I was coming up with a realistic approach. It would be a dumb argument for me to just pretend like we could get Kawhi and Horford and call it an offseason. I'm trying to be realistic here.

Again, show me a bad team full of high VORP guys and I'll concede the argument. You can't do it because they don't exist. I don't like Willie either but that second group would whoop the first group because they put a much bigger stamp on winning basketball games. The nice part is that they don't do the things that our other best players do so they could all conceivably keep their VORP's high because there isn't much redundancy with their games compared to Fox, Bagley and Buddy. You add those guys to our current roster minus Barnes, Yogi and Koufos and you have yourself the 2018 Clippers.
 
The Warriors play in the Bay Area for one thing
Doesn’t matter. The point was, under the scenario I outlined, any team will interest top free agents. San Antonio isn’t a large market, but always draws interest because they win. The KINGS circa 2002 would have done the same had they been able to sustain. Unfortunately they were a shooting star.

Im just saying, it’s possible. It’s not a ‘it can never happen’ situation. But I fully agree with you that it’s a ways off, if it ever happens at all.
 
I would want to keep him too if he realized who and what he is as a player. Instead, he has these visions of grandeur of himself, but yet his play is inconsistent at best. Stats don’t tell you the whole story. I watched most of the games last season and his problem is what’s between the ears. Lack of effort, heart whatever you want to call it. He doesn’t have it and he never will.

He was given more chances than a player of his caliber deserves, but yet did nothing that really stood out, apart from letting three straight opposing centers grab 20 plus rebounds on him each. His free throw percentage has declined with each year in the league. This is not a hard working guy folks. He is in it for the money only and the good times.

He had no competition last year for the C spot. None. We were small and mobile and yes he runs the floor well, but has the worst layup percentage in the league or is right up there. That’s like going hunting without any bullets in your rifle, what’s the point?

He has the physical capability of being so much more, but he refuses to acknowledge the type of role he should be playing. If he stays it’s going to be messy. He will be upset that he is still here and not being Kareem somewhere else.

I acknowledge I was overly aggressive with my initial statement, but how can anyone argue with the above? He is a fringe starter on a bad team and it showed. He simply cannot keep focus long enough during the season and cost us games with his lack of rebounding and poor free throw percentage. Instead of owning up to any deficiencies as a player, he comes out via agent and says we did not let him thrive as a player? Please.

Guy is delusional and needs to take his act elsewhere. Luckily, there are quite a few better big men available this offseason and we have lots of money to spend.
I understand that my view is the minority view on the board, but I just wanted to add that I don't see him quite the way most people see him. People take him for a selfish player while I don't see that. I think he likes being a part of a team, hence his petulant behavior when the "Ball Club" was broken apart. Wanting to show more of his game is not a negative for me. He does what the coach asks him to do, but he expresses that he wants more responsibility. That is fine with me. He does not live for basketball like some of our players, but I think he tries his best.

While I do accept some of the criticism you leveled above, I think its still too harsh as an overall assessment. His shooting did regress horribly this year, and I think it has to do with the change in motion. He needs to go back to his previous motion ASAP. His biggest issue might be that he does not fit next to Bagley. Hopefully he fits better on his next team, because I too think that at this point the chances of him staying are slim.
 
I don't "want" WCS back either but I was coming up with a realistic approach. It would be a dumb argument for me to just pretend like we could get Kawhi and Horford and call it an offseason. I'm trying to be realistic here.

Again, show me a bad team full of high VORP guys and I'll concede the argument. You can't do it because they don't exist. I don't like Willie either but that second group would whoop the first group because they put a much bigger stamp on winning basketball games. The nice part is that they don't do the things that our other best players do so they could all conceivably keep their VORP's high because there isn't much redundancy with their games compared to Fox, Bagley and Buddy. You add those guys to our current roster minus Barnes, Yogi and Koufos and you have yourself the 2018 Clippers.
I don’t really care about the VORP thing to be honest. It has its place for sure but I’m looking at reality and the results of an entire season. My qualms aren’t with VORP or anything it’s Willie. The Clippers did really well for what they were, but that shouldn’t be the image we are trying to copy.

Willie has been our starting center for a while and has done exactly squat to keep it. If he had, you and I wouldn’t be discussing this right now. Don’t get me wrong, I like most of the players you mentioned but going with Willie as your starting center will always limit the Kings. He just isn’t good enough point blank. Poor rebounder, horrible blocker, can’t hit free throws, and a subpar interior defender. He’s not an awful player, but he’s too much baggage for a limited skill set. It’s one thing to have confidence and another to be delusional about who you are as a basketball player.
 
I understand that my view is the minority view on the board, but I just wanted to add that I don't see him quite the way most people see him. People take him for a selfish player while I don't see that. I think he likes being a part of a team, hence his petulant behavior when the "Ball Club" was broken apart. Wanting to show more of his game is not a negative for me. He does what the coach asks him to do, but he expresses that he wants more responsibility. That is fine with me. He does not live for basketball like some of our players, but I think he tries his best.

While I do accept some of the criticism you leveled above, I think its still too harsh as an overall assessment. His shooting did regress horribly this year, and I think it has to do with the change in motion. He needs to go back to his previous motion ASAP. His biggest issue might be that he does not fit next to Bagley. Hopefully he fits better on his next team, because I too think that at this point the chances of him staying are slim.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree. It’s not just this season though that his shooting has regressed. It’s been downhill since he entered the league and I’m not even making that up. Bagley also does things on the side apart from playing basketball and all other players should enjoy other activities, but Bagley is aggressive and wants to destroy the opposing team whether it’s basketball or in rap apparently. You can’t teach something like that.

He’s good at rim running, perimeter defending and seems to be a decent teammate at least from what we see. But he’s also poor at blocking shots, poor at rebounding, and poor with overall focus and effort. He’s a liability at the end of games because of free throw shooting as well.

The thing that gets me though, above all, is that he had his agent come out publicly saying that WE (as in the Kings) didn’t give him a fair shake to show his stuff and skills.

That, to me, is the ultimate nail in the coffin. Instead of admitting that he sucks at shooting free throws and for being infuriating to watch at times and saying I’ll come back better, he points fingers and blames the Kings instead. That’s a child’s response and way of thinking. It shows poor character and I think no matter what his days as a King are numbered and hopefully will be over very soon.
 
Barnes is getting paid what the market dictates.
There is only a handful of Elite 3s: George, Kawhi, Middleton, Lebron.

Underneath that you have some potential with Josh Richardson, Ingram and Tatum.

Of course, the 22 million is more than most other teams will pay. Will he earn that 22 mil? Who knows. But, the Kings options are limited in FA at the 3.
Don’t love the signing. But, the Kings didn’t really have much choice.

What the Kings do the rest of FA and possibly sign and trade will really be vital.

For me a SAT for Capela or Adams and signing Harris gets this team to the playoffs next year.
 
I understand that my view is the minority view on the board, but I just wanted to add that I don't see him quite the way most people see him. People take him for a selfish player while I don't see that. I think he likes being a part of a team, hence his petulant behavior when the "Ball Club" was broken apart. Wanting to show more of his game is not a negative for me. He does what the coach asks him to do, but he expresses that he wants more responsibility. That is fine with me. He does not live for basketball like some of our players, but I think he tries his best.

While I do accept some of the criticism you leveled above, I think its still too harsh as an overall assessment. His shooting did regress horribly this year, and I think it has to do with the change in motion. He needs to go back to his previous motion ASAP. His biggest issue might be that he does not fit next to Bagley. Hopefully he fits better on his next team, because I too think that at this point the chances of him staying are slim.
No he does not do what the coach asks him to do, and at the very least not consistently, or you wouldn't get the kind of comments from Divac that you've gotten. George Karl was right about the guy.

Again, this is the guy who one day decided he would go grab a ton of rebounds just because, and only because, some fans or something were criticizing him for it. And so he did, for ONE game. He has all the skills but just refuses to do what is best for the team. Pros who have achieved more than him in their early career still talk about doing whatever coach wants them to do for the team. Look at Tyreke - he was moved through 3 positions, moved off the ball. When it came to his final year did you hear him talking about getting paid, about wanting to change team to be given more freedom and the ball back in his hands?

Do you know what we were when we were letting WCS lead the offense? A bad team.
 
Last edited:
No he does not do what the coach asks him to do, and at the very least not consistently, or you wouldn't get the kind of comments from Divac that you've gotten. George Karl was right about the guy.

Again, this is the guy who one day decided he would go grab a ton of rebounds just because, and only because, some fans or something were criticizing him for it. And so he did, for ONE game. He has all the skills but just refuses to do what is best for the team. Pros who have achieved more than him in their early career still talk about doing whatever coach wants them to do for the team. Look at Tyreke - he was moved through 3 positions, moved off the ball. When it came to his final year did you hear him talking about getting paid, about wanting to change team to be given more freedom and the ball back in his hands?

Do you know what we were when we were letting WCS lead the offense? A bad team.
I think that his demeanor does not sit well with many people. To me he is like a weird child, but I think that gets mistaken for not caring or not trying. But on the court, I thought he did well. As I've pointed out many times, I do not think he is a bad or inconsistent rebounder (he averaged 8.5 in 27).
And no one was advocating letting WCS lead the offense. But anyway, looks like we are replacing him with Dedmon