Guess as to rotation.

serbiangoat · Jul 17, 2023

It's hard to know because he's a #1 option in Europe and there's less space for offensive players to work in and he's not really asked to defend well, obviously athletically he will struggle (never stopped Joe Ingils being a good defender), but yeah I think those expecting him to outperform Barnes overall are a bit unrealistic unless Barnes has a massive drop-off. If he can have a first year Kings Bjelica impact the Kings will be insane imo.

But I think he's more of a combo of bigger JJ Redick/Luke Babbit (with some stuff in the post/way better scorer) than Bjelica tbh I don't really see the comparison since Bjelica needed touches to be effective and had a far more complete game where as Sasha can play without the ball and wreck.

Vinny Basketballerino · Jul 17, 2023

serbiangoat said:

Nemenja had a more traditional game but just with insane range - and yeah, wasn't nearly as good off the ball as Sasha. To me, Sasha exhibits a feel for a motion offense that is exceptionally rare. His off ball fakes/decoys to get open are elite. This is why people are saying his game will match so well with the Kings. He's ideal to have on the floor with Sabonis. And he has a stronger mid range game than Bjelica - floaters, runners, catch, turn, and shoot from anywhere on the floor. I haven't really identified an offensive ceiling for him on the Kings yet. Of course we will see when the rubber meets the road - particularly how he deals with the length of NBA defenders.

I am a bit concerned about his defense - I just don't want that to limit how long he can be on the floor. But I'm counting on his toughness to figure that out. As you said, he wasn't asked to defend a whole lot in Europe - but if he's a third or fourth option on the floor for us, obviously he'll have to hold his own there. The rebounding though I think will translate - and that is an aspect of defense.

I don't really see the Nemenja comparison outside of being a bouncy 6'9" - 6'10" Euro stretch 4 with range.

funkykingston · Jul 17, 2023

Games aren't played on paper and ultimately we'll have to wait for pre-season and regular season games to see how Vezenkov looks against NBA competition, but the Kings are pretty much the best possible fit for him.

As good as the Kings offense was last season, the bench did sometimes struggle offensively.

The Kings overall had the #1 offense in the league, but their bench was actually 9th in points scored. And part of that was that their bench played the 17th most minutes among NBA teams. They also shot 35.2% from three while the starters shot over 38%,

Malik was huge last season, but if he didn't have it going (and TD didn't have his occasional offensive explosion) the 2nd unit often had a hard time putting points on the board.

Vezenkov doesn't help an already shaky defense, but he shores up bench scoring and will likely help out with rebounding numbers as well.

SacTownKid · Jul 17, 2023

sactowndog said:

Defense is usually where you define positions in the modern game and yeah I agree, I think he'll be guarding the quicker matchup. Offensively they'll basically play similarly. I'm really hoping we end up seeing more switching and less helping over. That killed the Kings in the regular season and by mixing it up in the playoffs they seemed much better.

Jc121 · Jul 17, 2023

From what I observed the second unit most always had at least one or two starters playing with them in trying to keep the offense going. I believe the moves to bring in Sasha and Duarte not only are to give the second unit more kicks and just keep their foot on the gas.

I am really looking forward to our upcoming season as we are going to putting on a show that will be a must watch and when we are clicking on all cylinders we will run a lot teams off the floor.

SacTownKid · Jul 17, 2023

Vinny Basketballerino said:

Nemenja had a more traditional game but just with insane range - and yeah, wasn't nearly as good off the ball as Sasha. To me, Sasha exhibits a feel for a motion offense that is exceptionally rare. His off ball fakes/decoys to get open are elite. This is why people are saying his game will match so well with the Kings. He's ideal to have on the floor with Sabonis. And he has a stronger mid range game than Bjelica - floaters, runners, catch, turn, and shoot from anywhere on the floor. I haven't really identified an offensive ceiling for him on the Kings yet. Of course we will see when the rubber meets the road - particularly how he deals with the length of NBA defenders.

I am a bit concerned about his defense - I just don't want that to limit how long he can be on the floor. But I'm counting on his toughness to figure that out. As you said, he wasn't asked to defend a whole lot in Europe - but if he's a third or fourth option on the floor for us, obviously he'll have to hold his own there. The rebounding though I think will translate - and that is an aspect of defense.

I don't really see the Nemenja comparison outside of being a bouncy 6'9" - 6'10" Euro stretch 4 with range.

Yeah, Bjelica was more like a shooting big whereas Sasha is kind of like a big shooter. Both have decent handles too. Sasha looks very much like a slower Peja but one that also likes more contact. Something Peja was railed for back in the day. Bjelica was kind of like the older, tail end version of Toni Kukoc

alden.viado · Jul 17, 2023

I'm still concerned with the back up 3 spot. We did fill it by picking up Kesslers option, Jones, Duarte, Slawson. But that's not an 'experienced' enough wing depth for me especially when you look at how deep other teams wings are.

I say add another wing with a bit of 'vet' experience. There's a lot out there - Derrick Jones Jr, Terrence Ross, trade options also.

Another Delly type vet wouldn't hurt either at 1 or 5

Sasha, yes he's a euroleague MVP, so was Bogi, Bjelica and they played their roles but let's not over hype him like he's a Luka.
If anything I'm gonna put his ceiling at contract season Davis Bertans

Woot! · Jul 17, 2023

sactowndog said:

A regular 12-man rotation? Not a chance.

Leaving aside injury and serious foul trouble, it'll probably be a 9-man rotation, as it was last season. That is

1: Fox (30), Davion (18)
2: Huerter (20), Monk (24), Fox (4)
3: Murray (34), Huerter (8), Barnes (6)
4: Barnes (24), Vezenkov (20), Lyles (4)
5: Sabonis (34), Lyles (14)

IOW, you have the same 8 core rotation guys as last year + Vezenkov; Chimezie and TD, who were the 9th and 10th guys last year, are gone. The only hesitation I have is leaving out Len. I suspect that Len and Lyles will jockey for the minutes behind Domas, depending on matchups, w/Lyles also seeing some minutes with Domas because he's got a credible 3-ball.

miltonap · Jul 17, 2023

Woot! said:

A regular 12-man rotation? Not a chance.

Leaving aside injury and serious foul trouble, it'll probably be a 9-man rotation, as it was last season. That is

1: Fox (30), Davion (18)
2: Huerter (20), Monk (24), Fox (4)
3: Murray (34), Huerter (8), Barnes (6)
4: Barnes (24), Vezenkov (20), Lyles (4)
5: Sabonis (34), Lyles (14)

IOW, you have the same 8 core rotation guys as last year + Vezenkov; Chimezie and TD, who were the 9th and 10th guys last year, are gone. The only hesitation I have is leaving out Len. I suspect that Len and Lyles will jockey for the minutes behind Domas, depending on matchups, w/Lyles also seeing some minutes with Domas because he's got a credible 3-ball.

Len may very well be the solidified back up Center.

I know people like to throw Lyles in there but I think Len might have that spot.

Caccia · Jul 17, 2023

miltonap said:

Certainly possible, but Len is so much slower afoot than Lyles, he might be a little like an anchor trailing in the water on a speedboat.

Krunker · Jul 17, 2023

Caccia said:

I think it just depends on matchups if we need to protect the rim or stretch the floor...

The_Jamal · Jul 17, 2023

miltonap said:

Follow the money. 2/16 for Lyles. 3/20 for Vezenkov. Unless Vezenkov stuns and he can actually defend quicker wings, those are the dudes playing the 4 and 5. Not Len on a min salary

Woot! · Jul 17, 2023

miltonap said:

Len showed very well when given the chance. But so did Lyles, whom they chose to bring back for nontrivial money. Lyles can play the 4, but they also brought HB back for real money and brought Vezenkov over, fresh off a Euroleague MVP season, for nontrivial money. If they didn't plan to play all those guys they made a bad mistake.

Truth is that the Kings have more rotation-worthy players - everywhere, including the frontcourt - than likely regular-rotation spots.

Vinny Basketballerino · Jul 17, 2023

Woot! said:

As a highly respected poster above mentioned - the Kings second unit struggled to score at times. I, myself, Vinny "the Sauce" Basketballerino, clearly remember games nearly lost because our second unit went scoreless for 4-6 minute stretches more than once.

Our first unit can run anyone out of the gym. If our second unit can come anywhere close to that without having to rely on keeping Fox or Sabonis on the floor - we are championship contenders. I believe this offseason was mostly about making our second unit absolutely deadly. As our roster currently stands, we are an incredibly deep team. Len is our rim protector when needed - I believe he will see minutes. We're gonna continue to run, run, run.

Best guess at a second unit:

Davion (hopefully improved shot and running the offense)
Monk
Duarte
Sasha
Lyles (and sometimes Len)

Of course, Fox and Sabonis will play with that second unit, and there's still chemistry all over the place. Fox and Monk. Sabonis and Duarte. Fox and Davion locking down perimeter guards. Sasha with pretty much anyone because he's an off-ball savant. Etc., etc.

whitechocolate · Jul 17, 2023

Vocals - Huerter
Guitar - Queta
Bass - Monk
Keyboard - Barnes
Drums - Len

The_Jamal · Jul 17, 2023

funkykingston said:

Yeah this tracks pretty well. The Kings bench was basically entirely made up of how good Monk/Lyles were playing; if they were bad, we probably lost the game and our bench units were probably getting run over. Metu/Len/Holmes weren't scorers, we didn't find a consistent 10th man until Kessler and he wasn't a scorer. TD would go through a two-week stretch of looking like Ant Edwards and then a 2 month stretch of looking like an overseas player. Davion was fairly poor offensively most of the season.

Lyles at the 5 gives you a legit "Oh, I actually have to defend this set" option that we haven't had behind Domas yet. I'm just imagining how clear that paint is going to be for Fox and Monk drives to the rim. My guess is the base set is going to be Vezenkov as the roll man and letting him get actions out of that while Lyles sits in his usual corner. And we'll see if Duarte can rebound, but in theory, he's an actual offensive threat to go score the ball. Jones showed quite a few connector tendencies and a "little things" star that could gel real nice with that grouping too.

Pretty sneakily, the Kings really needed to improve their depth. We were so good and so consistent offensively all year..until in the playoffs when HB and Huerter fell off a cliff and we had no where to turn to. I think the hope is that if we do get hit harder with injuries this year, or if someone just disappears again, that this new Vezenkov/Duarte/Jones/Kessler grouping can step up and fill that void.

Insomniacal Fan · Jul 18, 2023

The_Jamal said:

Wasn't Lyles on a min salary last year? You can't say it's unprecedented for a min salary guy to be in the rotation.

Lyles clearly earned a bigger contract based on his play last year, but as a wing.

Jones2006 · Jul 18, 2023

On the Lyles “stretch the floor” argument over Len … he’s a career 34% 3 point shooter while Len is 33 percent … just saying if spacing is that important they could always have Len pick & pop more. Unlike Lyles he’s a pick and roll threat too though. Offense seemed to not miss a beat last year with Len in the game setting picks, rolling hard to basket, finishing inside, etc. but again I might have amnesia. I just think Len is clearly the more talented/valuable player at the "center" spot. It would be different obviously if we're comparing them as "power forwards" but we're not ... the Lyles/Len combo off the bench was highly effective last year. Sorry but I think changing that on a consistent basis is silly.

ESP47 · Jul 18, 2023

Len basically had one season about 5 years ago where he shot the 3 ball pretty well on a decent number of attempts but he's been pretty bad outside of that. You don't want to rely on his shot making off the bench. He's all about defense and rebounding.

He had a good run at the end of the season but his run sputtered pretty bad by the end and he started to turn back into a pumpkin again. He's just a situational type player. Deserves more minutes than he got last year but Brown just went with the hot hand. For a while it was Metu, then when he came back down to earth he tried Holmes and then landed on Len who played pretty solidly for the most part.

Brown's move with Lyles at the 5 basically won the Kings a playoff game but I don't think that necessarily means he can be successful playing a lot of minutes at the 5. Maybe we'll find out this season but I see no guarantees that it will be a successful move. It basically worked for one game. We're going to need a much bigger sample size than that to make any type of determinations.

funkykingston · Jul 18, 2023

ESP47 said:

Good post. I agree with most everything you said here and want to focus on your last comment.

I expect that we'll see Brown experiment in the preseason for exactly this reason. They spent most of last season trying to find a decent backup for Sabonis and only at the very end of the year did they give a real shot to either of the two guys we all expect to compete for those minutes.

My guess is that it will continue to be situational.

When Brown needs rebounding, defense, and physicality he'll turn to Len.

When he wants to space the floor and/or wants an offensive spark, he'll bring in Lyles.

I could see Lyles subbing for Barnes midway through the first, then sliding to center when Domas goes out and Vezenkov comes in, and then if Sasha is going well you sub Sabonis back in for Lyles so he and Vezenkov share some court time.

The biggest issue is that if Sabonis goes down for any stretch of games, I don't think either Lyles or Len are a good option to start. I think as a reserve platoon they'll be just fine, but this team will likely struggle a lot if Domas gets injured.

It's not just that he's one of the team's two best players, this whole offense is built around his skill set.

funkykingston · Jul 18, 2023

And just as one last note on Lyles. As I said, I don't think he's a viable option to start if Sabonis is out (I'd assume we'd start Len in that case) but I do think too much is being made of him being "undersized" at center.

Measurements aren't everything, but Richaun Holmes was a very solid starter for the Kings a couple seasons ago and the two are almost the same size.

Their wingspans (7'1.5") and standing reaches (9'0") are the same and Lyles is slightly taller 6'9" barefoot vs 6'8.25" for Richaun.

They were also almost the same weight at the combine (241.2 lbs vs 242.8 lbs), but that's misleading as Lyles was 12.1% body fat and has clearly slimmed down some.

Lyles didn't do the athletic testing, but Holmes was not a standout for lane agility, the shuttle run or the 3/4 court sprint. He did have pretty good verticals and was near the top in bench press reps.

Which matches what the eye test told me about both. Neither is big as a center, but where Richaun is stronger and has more vertical pop, Lyles is craftier and sneaky good with using his length. Both are stout enough to not get bulldozed by most backup centers.

Vinny Basketballerino · Jul 18, 2023

funkykingston said:

I think this is the most likely pattern to start the season. Lyles and Sasha on the floor at the same time gives us very possibly 5 shooters, and possibly three great shooters on the floor.

Fox/Davion
Huerter
Keegan
Sasha
Lyles

That's going to be pretty darn hard to guard. Stretches defenses to the point of breaking. Especially if Fox is in there. That lane is going to be more open than a Denny's at 3 am.

Jones2006 · Jul 18, 2023

ESP47 said:

“his run sputtered pretty bad by the end and he started to turn back into a pumpkin again”

That’s just not true and blatantly making stuff up. Seriously what are you referring to? Dude balled out in the playoffs, had the highest plus minus on a per minute basis, check the game threads of some people wanting him to play over Sabonis. He was impactful every minute spurt practically in the plsyoffs, even with a “bad matchup” going in vs. Golden State.

Honestly I think people just have an opinion of Len’s weaknesses such as being slow and when he gets beat 1 on 1 on a switch they go “there it is! That’s why he can’t play!” even when every center or every player gets beat on drives. He’s not particular slower than any other big guy such as Adams, Embiid, Jokic, even Sabonis, etc etc.

funkykingston · Jul 18, 2023

Jones2006 said:

Len had a great end to the season. The fact that he was essentially benched for Games 6 & 7 was about Mike Brown trying to counter Golden State's adjustments rather than anything Len or didn't do.

In Game 1 he came in and grabbed 7 rebounds in 13 minutes. In Game 4 he had 5 rebounds in 10 minutes. The worst losses of the series for the Kings (Games 3 and 7) were the ones where they were beat on the glass.

That said, the best defensive rebounder per minute in the playoffs was actually Lyles. Better than Len and better than Domas. But what Len also brought was offensive rebounding and some rim protection.

Again, I'm worried about what happens if Domas goes down, but in terms of being backups at center, I don't see this as a Len vs Lyles thing. Both guys can help the team in that spot in different ways and I wouldn't be surprised to see Mike Brown platoon them and give minutes to whoever he thinks will help more that night.

Insomniacal Fan · Jul 18, 2023

I think the Noel signing indicates that backup C is going to be a footrace. Neither Len, Noel or Lyles is obviously good enough to succeed, so everyone will get a chance to compete for the minutes

ESP47 · Jul 18, 2023

Jones2006 said:

He had at least two games in the playoffs where I specifically remember him looking terrible. He also had a couple games at the end of the regular season where he looked bad.

I thought he looked great for about 5-6 games when Brown finally started playing him near the end of the season and then he looked good for the first two games of the playoff series and then was basically back to being average Len again after that.

He is what he is. He can give us a different type of toughness than we can get from our other bigs but he's the least skilled as well so he's going to flub easy buckets, foul a lot and get beat on switches without the ability to go to the other end of the court and do damage like Sabonis can.

The_Jamal · Jul 18, 2023

There's like 3 posters on this board with a weird obsession with Len. I don't get it. He's an end of the bench depth big that's useful when there's another giant on the floor. That's it.

sactowndog · Jul 18, 2023

Woot! said:

yeah except KZ and later Kessler were core rotation guys for much of the year and will be going forward as the 4th/5th option on offense and the primary defensive stopper.

that guy isn’t Keegan or Vezenkov or Lyles for sure….. Barnes played that role at times but those aren’t really his strengths either.

miltonap · Jul 18, 2023

The_Jamal said:

I mean I thought he was really good against the Warriors and I was a big fan of his when he came over when Luke Walton was the coach.

Who knows what the truth is.

Mike Brown obviously didn't like him that much last year since he was playing nothing then all of a sudden he was the backup C, contributing and playing important minutes in the playoffs.

Maybe Mike Brown doesn't even get it

sactowndog · Jul 18, 2023

Vinny Basketballerino said:

^. This is why Barnes will be moved to the bench and be a second or third option from the bench.

first unit is basically
Fox - 1st Option
Keegan - 2nd Option
Huerter - 3rd Option
Domas - 4th Option.

It makes zero sense having Barnes on the floor as the 5th option and focusing on defense. That role does not play to his strengths. Barnes can go get a bucket with no assistance and an ideal first, second or third option with the second unit.

Guess as to rotation.

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