Greg Oden?

[Prince_XY]

Hey, what do Dwayne Wade, Clyde Drexler and Tony Parker all have in common? They've all won titles wingmanning for a great big man and have ahell of a lot more similarities to Reke than they do some weenie three point chucker hiding over in the corner.

You win titles with great, physically dominant players. The shooters are typically just your roleplayers. Your place kickers brought in to do a job and stay out of the way of the real basketball players.

A lot of fans haven't really played a higher level of competitive basketball. A lot of them probably plays the catch and shoot game when they play full court basketball. They can't dribble and they can't create for themselves. This is probably why a lot of fans have this propensity to prefer catch and shoot players ( a mirror of themselves) over those stud players who can penetrate and create for themselves. And of course, a lot of fans also like that pass-first point guards who can set them up. They need these pass-first point guards to set them up, so they also prefer them. Nobody would admit it, but that is the psychology behind it.

It would be an exercise in futility trying to convince these kind of fans to think that talents like Tyreke are greater and a "must have in a team" to be very successful in the NBA. Let us just hope PDA, Malone, and the diminutive Vivek do not think the same as these fans.

 

[LPKingsFan]

A lot of fans haven't really played a higher level of competitive basketball. A lot of them probably plays the catch and shoot game when they play full court basketball. They can't dribble and they can't create for themselves. This is probably why a lot of fans have this propensity to prefer catch and shoot players ( a mirror of themselves) over those stud players who can penetrate and create for themselves. And of course, a lot of fans also like that pass-first point guards who can set them up. They need these pass-first point guards to set them up, so they also prefer them. Nobody would admit it, but that is the psychology behind it.

It would be an exercise in futility trying to convince these kind of fans to think that talents like Tyreke are greater and a "must have in a team" to be very successful in the NBA. Let us just hope PDA, Malone, and the diminutive Vivek do not think the same as these fans.

Interesting theory, but I remember some of my earliest discussions about Evans were with some of my college friends who told me to temper my enthusiasm. They only played college hoops, though, so what do they know?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Nobody would admit it, but that is the psychology behind it.

Nice way to preemptively declare victory for your pop psychoanalysis.

Even so, I will actively not admit it (like you predicted!) and assert that you are wrong. As a catch-and-shoot only player I desperately wish I had the speed and the handles to drive. Those are the guys who dominate the game.

 

[Padrino]

given the strange yet predictable turn of this discussion, i'd like to remind everybody of the trajectory that many of us saw for tyreke evans as his rookie campaign progressed. as a starter in 72 games during his rookie season, tyreke evans got to the rim an absolutely astounding 596 times. he converted on 352 of those attempts, for 59%, which is a fantastic percentage at the rim for a first-year player. he would go on to improve that percentage considerably in his last two seasons with the kings, along with his overall field goal percentage. he's also hitting the three at an acceptable rate now, though he still lacks much in the way of a midrange game, which is a vastly overrated skillset in the contemporary nba, in my opinion. but the fact remains that, against stiff nba defenses, 'reke got to the rim with ludicrous consistency in his first season...

for the sake of perspective, russell westbrook got to the rim 463 times as a rookie, converting on 47% of attempts. dwayne wade got there 464 times as a rookie, converting on 58% of attempts. lebron james got there 470 times as a rookie, converting on 60% of attempts. tyreke evans got there nearly 600 times as a rookie, and converted on 59% of attempts. i'd say there was cause for enthusiasm, wouldn't you? the kings' cut-rate coaching carousel across the last seven years is well-documented. the mismanagement of tyreke evans, as well as other kings personnel, is also well-documented. that said, if you give me a choice today between an excellent shooter with limited ability to create for himself and a power guard like tyreke evans who has the ability to single-handedly break down a defense at the rim many hundreds of times throughout the course of a season, i'm choosing 'reke 11 times out of 10 to pair alongside demarcus cousins, no questions asked. it's just what i value in an nba player. he gets after it on both sides of the ball, and if he gets the opportunity to be more than a sixth man in new orleans, i expect his upward trajectory to continue...

 

[bajaden]

Well, as far as that goes, I'm in agreement with Padrino, in terms of placing a much lower premium on jump shooting than guys like you and Kingster. In fact, I generally consider it to be the least important skill for a basketball player to have, even for one that is, ostensibly, classified as a "shooting" guard... It seems as though Malone and D'Alessandro are closer to being in agreement with the two of you, which I, personally, find disappointing.

First off, your misunderstanding my post. I wasn't presenting my point of view, but what I think the Kings point of view was, merely as a way of understanding why they did what they did. My point of view isn't important, as I have no power in the matter. You have your point of view, which in time may be proven right. Or maybe theirs will? After hearing all their comments prior to and after buying the Kings, as to the direction they wanted to go, I felt that Tyreke's days were numbered. Now if you want my opinion, then I'll give it. Do I think that Tyreke is the perfect fit next to Cousins? No! I don't. But I'm basing that opinion based on watching Tyreke play for 4 years.

That doesn't mean it couldn't work within a well designed offense. They mentioned that they wanted to play more of a motion offense, with more ball movement, and player movement without the ball. Personally, I don't think Tyreke would thrive within that type of offense, but Cousins would. Now that's just my opinion, and I could be dead wrong. Bricky said something about people having the silly notion that you have to have a good outside shooting player. Obviously, that's not Tyreke's strength. I'll say this, someone has to help spread the floor. In general its either your SG or your SF. In our case, just using players from last years roster, we had neither, unless Thornton was on the floor, and he was very inconsistent for most of the year.

We can discuss this until the cows come home, but it won't change anything. Obviously the Kings had a different vision than a lot of people on this forum. All I can do now is hope they're right.

 

[Prince_XY]

After hearing all their comments prior to and after buying the Kings, as to the direction they wanted to go, I felt that Tyreke's days were numbered.

This is scary.

I've read they also want good character players and will put more emphasis on defense. Now I feel like Cousins and Thornton's days are numbered too.

So, who's going to be left after this process of changing culture is over?

Maybe we'll see Portland and Sacramento trading their players before the trade deadline?

Or maybe this new regime is just full of BS talks and cannot be trusted with their words just like the old regime.

 

[pshn80]

And maybe green peas will take over the world. I'm not worried and I don't think you need to be either.

 

[bajaden]

This is scary.

I've read they also want good character players and will put more emphasis on defense. Now I feel like Cousins and Thornton's days are numbered too.

So, who's going to be left after this process of changing culture is over?

Maybe we'll see Portland and Sacramento trading their players before the trade deadline?

Or maybe this new regime is just full of BS talks and cannot be trusted with their words just like the old regime.

Who the hell knows for sure! They've just started, so I'm not going to condemn them just yet. I do think we have to remember that they got a late start at this with the sale being approved just before the draft. Other teams with management intact, had a head start on them as to lining up free agents or setting up trades. They did pursue Iggy, Kirilenko, Calderon, and Oden among'st others, most of whom signed for less money than the Kings offered them. So its not as though they didn't make an effort.

If Cousins is in trouble again like the last three years, then its possible that he'll go on the block. But if he's a good boy, and can play just average defense, then I doubt you'll see him going anywhere. Thornton doesn't have any character issues that I know of. Once again, if he can become an average defender, I think he'll stay, unless someone makes an offer the Kings can't refuse. Since you mentioned Portland, I wonder if their being honest about L. Aldridge not being on the block. And if he is on the block, what would they want for him. He's not a prolific shot blocker, but he does average around a block and a half a game along with around 9 boards a game. With him along side Cousins, who do you double? Just wishful thinking on my part.

 

[King Baller]

Baja,

I would take on LMA any day for anyone besides Cousins. Those guys could figure it out.

Another topic that has been rattling around is the Pelicans giving Tyreke 11 million a year and then saying he is their sixth man! I can't recall a team ever paying this much $$$ for a sixth man???

KB

 

[sdballer]

Baja,

I would take on LMA any day for anyone besides Cousins. Those guys could figure it out.

Another topic that has been rattling around is the Pelicans giving Tyreke 11 million a year and then saying he is their sixth man! I can't recall a team ever paying this much $$$ for a sixth man???

KB

Ginobli. They also have an incredibly injury prone guy they don't love ahead of him.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Baja,

I would take on LMA any day for anyone besides Cousins. Those guys could figure it out.

Another topic that has been rattling around is the Pelicans giving Tyreke 11 million a year and then saying he is their sixth man! I can't recall a team ever paying this much $$$ for a sixth man???

KB

Answered nearly a hundred posts ago. Not his newest deal, but his most recent one (cite).

 

[Prince_XY]

If Cousins is in trouble again like the last three years, then its possible that he'll go on the block. But if he's a good boy, and can play just average defense, then I doubt you'll see him going anywhere. Thornton doesn't have any character issues that I know of. Once again, if he can become an average defender, I think he'll stay, unless someone makes an offer the Kings can't refuse. Since you mentioned Portland, I wonder if their being honest about L. Aldridge not being on the block. And if he is on the block, what would they want for him. He's not a prolific shot blocker, but he does average around a block and a half a game along with around 9 boards a game. With him along side Cousins, who do you double? Just wishful thinking on my part.

Yes, we all wish we could have both but it would be next to impossible.

Would you trade Cousins for Aldridge though, say Cousins wants out of Sacramento and Aldridge wants out of Portland?

 

[mac]

Yes, we all wish we could have both but it would be next to impossible.

Would you trade Cousins for Aldridge though, say Cousins wants out of Sacramento and Aldridge wants out of Portland?

If Cousins wants out of Sacramento I wish the FO a big fat good luck.

 

[King Baller]

Ginobli. They also have an incredibly injury prone guy they don't love ahead of him.

OK, that is one guy who has been part of a multiple championship organization. It is amazing how few minutes Ginobli plays, yet he still has an amazing impact on the games.

So outside of Ginobli has there been a player who got 11 million to be the sixth man and insurance for an injury prone 2 guard???

 

[Mojo]

Time will tell if he does actually end up being the sixth man though. Wouldn't be surprised if he eventually ends up at the 3 at all. But that's not our problem anymore.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

OK, that is one guy who has been part of a multiple championship organization. It is amazing how few minutes Ginobli plays, yet he still has an amazing impact on the games.

So outside of Ginobli has there been a player who got 11 million to be the sixth man and insurance for an injury prone 2 guard???

1. I'm curious as to how many you think it takes?
2. I, like many others, don't accept the premise that New Orleans got him to be their sixth man. They want to get rid of Eric Gordon, and probably figured there was no sense in waiting until they could find some sucker to take his contract first, just in case.
3. It's not like they have any kind of imminent contract situation to worry about: if New Orleans' worst-case scenario comes to pass, and they can't get rid of Gordon, he'll still be gone before they have to re-sign Davis.

 

[bajaden]

Yes, we all wish we could have both but it would be next to impossible.

Would you trade Cousins for Aldridge though, say Cousins wants out of Sacramento and Aldridge wants out of Portland?

At this point, no! I still think Cousins potential exceeds that of Aldridge. And he's 4 years younger. Doesn't mean I won't change my mind down the road. But I sincerely hope that I don't have to.

 

[King Baller]

1. I'm curious as to how many you think it takes?
2. I, like many others, don't accept the premise that New Orleans got him to be their sixth man. They want to get rid of Eric Gordon, and probably figured there was no sense in waiting until they could find some sucker to take his contract first, just in case.
3. It's not like they have any kind of imminent contract situation to worry about: if New Orleans' worst-case scenario comes to pass, and they can't get rid of Gordon, he'll still be gone before they have to re-sign Davis.

1) I suppose only one. You do have to admit it is unusual. I mean currently on the Kings none of the players make over $8,050,000 for 2013/14. The Pelicans currently have 4 players over that amount.

2) Between Gordon and Evans that is 26 million tied up in players who are at their best at the 2 spot. So I have to agree with you. They would like to move Gordon or plan to play Evans at the 3.

3) The Pelicans are in good shape with only a handful of contracts beyond next year.

 

[mac]

1) I suppose only one. You do have to admit it is unusual. I mean currently on the Kings none of the players make over $8,050,000 for 2013/14. The Pelicans currently have 4 players over that amount.

2) Between Gordon and Evans that is 26 million tied up in players who are at their best at the 2 spot. So I have to agree with you. They would like to move Gordon or plan to play Evans at the 3.

3) The Pelicans are in good shape with only a handful of contracts beyond next year.

Wrt to point 1) - I think that's one of the reasons the Pelicans are going to be a lot better than we are next season.

 

[sdballer]

Wrt to point 1) - I think that's one of the reasons the Pelicans are going to be a lot better than we are next season.

It's a great illustration of how you want to utilize salary in a small market vs how we've done it.

New Orleans $5M+:
Gordon $14M
Reke $11M
Holiday $9M
Anderson $8M
Davis $5M
All the key contributors and all starter/star level talent with the rest of the roster filled out with specific role players on rookie deals and vet minimums. Gordon is the only questionable deal and he still has value.


Sacramento $5M+:
Thornton $8M
Salmons $7M
Landry $6M
Hayes $6M
Thompson $6M
Cousins $5M
Only one star level talent. Some of those guys shouldn't be on the team or playing big minutes and the rest of the bench is mostly filled up with redundant pieces.

 

[mac]

It's a great illustration of how you want to utilize salary in a small market vs how we've done it.

New Orleans $5M+:
Gordon $14M
Reke $11M
Holiday $9M
Anderson $8M
Davis $5M
All the key contributors and all starter/star level talent with the rest of the roster filled out with specific role players on rookie deals and vet minimums. Gordon is the only questionable deal and he still has value.


Sacramento $5M+:
Thornton $8M
Salmons $7M
Landry $6M
Hayes $6M
Thompson $6M
Cousins $5M
Only one star level talent. Some of those guys shouldn't be on the team or playing big minutes and the rest of the bench is mostly filled up with redundant pieces.

I'm also not sure of the lengths of their contracts but as someone mentioned I believe they will have the room to extend Davis when the time comes. To be fair to our FO, Salmons and Hayes was not their doing, and getting rid of them at this point is easier said than done.

 

[mac]

It's a great illustration of how you want to utilize salary in a small market vs how we've done it.

New Orleans $5M+:
Gordon $14M
Reke $11M
Holiday $9M
Anderson $8M
Davis $5M
All the key contributors and all starter/star level talent with the rest of the roster filled out with specific role players on rookie deals and vet minimums. Gordon is the only questionable deal and he still has value.


Sacramento $5M+:
Thornton $8M
Salmons $7M
Landry $6M
Hayes $6M
Thompson $6M
Cousins $5M
Only one star level talent. Some of those guys shouldn't be on the team or playing big minutes and the rest of the bench is mostly filled up with redundant pieces.

Additional point on vet minimums - you're more likely to be able to get such contracts when you have a good nucleus of either young or veteran talent in place. On paper, Holiday/Davis/Gordon or Evans sounds a lot more attractive than Cousins (reportedly not a good locker room guy)/ Vasquez/ Thornton.

But we have to realize that we are a few years behind in rebuilding, and that originated from Petrie. Hopefully our patience pays off a few years from now, and hopefully us being a little late to the party doesn't cause us to miss out on a key FA who only wants to play for an already competitive team.

 

[The_Jamal]

Well, as far as that goes, I'm in agreement with Padrino, in terms of placing a much lower premium on jump shooting than guys like you and Kingster. In fact, I generally consider it to be the least important skill for a basketball player to have, even for one that is, ostensibly, classified as a "shooting" guard... It seems as though Malone and D'Alessandro are closer to being in agreement with the two of you, which I, personally, find disappointing.

I don't understand this philosophy. Floor spacing is absolutely crucial to any title team and more important than anything outside of having a dominant #1 option. Legit #1 option, floor spacing, and defense. I doubt you'd find many (or any) title teams that do not have those 3 components on it.

 

[The_Jamal]

It's a great illustration of how you want to utilize salary in a small market vs how we've done it.

New Orleans $5M+:
Gordon $14M
Reke $11M
Holiday $9M
Anderson $8M
Davis $5M
All the key contributors and all starter/star level talent with the rest of the roster filled out with specific role players on rookie deals and vet minimums. Gordon is the only questionable deal and he still has value.


Sacramento $5M+:
Thornton $8M
Salmons $7M
Landry $6M
Hayes $6M
Thompson $6M
Cousins $5M
Only one star level talent. Some of those guys shouldn't be on the team or playing big minutes and the rest of the bench is mostly filled up with redundant pieces.

Maybe Im crazy but 3 perimeter guards who are all best with the ball in their hands, and 0 off-ball game is not a recipe for success. Not to mention, that roster has absolutely 0 bigs depth outside of Davis and Anderson. They're putting a hell of a lot of faith that Davis can stay on the court and fulfill his defensive potential right away. Also, they're stuck with that roster until Eric Gordon deal runs out. The lot of you are kidding themselves if you think they'll be able to move him for something this season.

 

[dude12]

I don't understand this philosophy. Floor spacing is absolutely crucial to any title team and more important than anything outside of having a dominant #1 option. Legit #1 option, floor spacing, and defense. I doubt you'd find many (or any) title teams that do not have those 3 components on it.

Your correct. Look at Miami. They have 2 great penetrating legit #1 options in Wade and Lebron yet at times, they play better with only one on the floor surrounded by floor spacers in Battier, Mike Miller, Chalmers and then their big man Bosh plays outside. SA floor spacers are Green, Neal, Ginobili when he needs to be, Matt Bonner.....
And Wade, Lebron and Tony Parker also can hit consistently on 15-17 foot jumper......as much as some want to put Evans in a category close to these guys, he's not. Doesn't play defense as good as them, he's solid but not great.....does not hit a mid range jumper consistently like them.....does not see the floor like them, and this is not close.....does not have anything remotely close to leadership skills like these guys.

Now with all that being said, I think he's a good player. These other guys are elite. I think the Pelicans are going to have some adjusting to figure out on how to make Holiday, Evans, and Gordan work cause they all are guys who need the ball and they all penetrate. None of their SFs can stretch the floor. Ryan Anderson at the 4 works.

But back to the point that posters who are saying that jump shooters are overrated....they are necessary, whether its your 1st scoring option or your role players.

 

[twslam07]

Your correct. Look at Miami. They have 2 great penetrating legit #1 options in Wade and Lebron yet at times, they play better with only one on the floor surrounded by floor spacers in Battier, Mike Miller, Chalmers and then their big man Bosh plays outside. SA floor spacers are Green, Neal, Ginobili when he needs to be, Matt Bonner.....
And Wade, Lebron and Tony Parker also can hit consistently on 15-17 foot jumper......as much as some want to put Evans in a category close to these guys, he's not. Doesn't play defense as good as them, he's solid but not great.....does not hit a mid range jumper consistently like them.....does not see the floor like them, and this is not close.....does not have anything remotely close to leadership skills like these guys.

Now with all that being said, I think he's a good player. These other guys are elite. I think the Pelicans are going to have some adjusting to figure out on how to make Holiday, Evans, and Gordan work cause they all are guys who need the ball and they all penetrate. None of their SFs can stretch the floor. Ryan Anderson at the 4 works.

But back to the point that posters who are saying that jump shooters are overrated....they are necessary, whether its your 1st scoring option or your role players.

Lebron shot over 40% from three last season. I think he deserves more credit than "being able to hit consistently from 15-17 feet."

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I don't understand this philosophy. Floor spacing is absolutely crucial to any title team and more important than anything outside of having a dominant #1 option. Legit #1 option, floor spacing, and defense. I doubt you'd find many (or any) title teams that do not have those 3 components on it.

Jump shooting might be an important skill to have (a point which I am not willing to concede, but won't completely reject out of hand), but it is not one of the most important skills to have. It is not more important than interior play, it is not more important than defense. It is not more important than rebounding. It is not more important than being able to create when the play breaks down. It is not more important than being able to collapse a defense and make them adjust to you.

It's cool to have players who can hit jumpers, only insofar as it makes players who can do the stuff above that much harder to guard. But they're not more important than players who can do that stuff. Whatever you think of Evans, and whether or not he's as good at that stuff as Wade or Parker, he can still do that stuff, way better than anyone we've drafted, signed or traded for in this offseason. And, if the plans for this team don't include Evans, then we should have used Evans to get someone who can do that stuff.

 

[sdballer]

Your correct. Look at Miami. They have 2 great penetrating legit #1 options in Wade and Lebron yet at times, they play better with only one on the floor surrounded by floor spacers in Battier, Mike Miller, Chalmers and then their big man Bosh plays outside. SA floor spacers are Green, Neal, Ginobili when he needs to be, Matt Bonner.....
And Wade, Lebron and Tony Parker also can hit consistently on 15-17 foot jumper......as much as some want to put Evans in a category close to these guys, he's not. Doesn't play defense as good as them, he's solid but not great.....does not hit a mid range jumper consistently like them.....does not see the floor like them, and this is not close.....does not have anything remotely close to leadership skills like these guys.

Now with all that being said, I think he's a good player. These other guys are elite. I think the Pelicans are going to have some adjusting to figure out on how to make Holiday, Evans, and Gordan work cause they all are guys who need the ball and they all penetrate. None of their SFs can stretch the floor. Ryan Anderson at the 4 works.

But back to the point that posters who are saying that jump shooters are overrated....they are necessary, whether its your 1st scoring option or your role players.

You lost me when you suggested tony Parker is a great defender.

Besides that, this whole argument has gotten stale. If you can't look at nba history to see the kinds of teams that compete (where jump shooters are primarily role players supporting stud bigs and elite penetrators), I don't know what else to say.

 

[dude12]

You lost me when you suggested tony Parker is a great defender.

Besides that, this whole argument has gotten stale. If you can't look at nba history to see the kinds of teams that compete (where jump shooters are primarily role players supporting stud bigs and elite penetrators), I don't know what else to say.

You mean the like the role players that I just listed with the elite penetrators? Lol.

 

[sdballer]

You mean the like the role players that I just listed with the elite penetrators? Lol.

You were agreeing with a post that said outside shooting was the second most important skill a team needs and went further to suggest teams are better with only one interior scorer at a time (either post or penetrator). We're really not saying the same thing, unless I'm misunderstanding your perspective, in which case we are in violent agreement.