Grades v. Wolves 12/13

[piksi]

I that's pretty sad and doesn't say much for Peja. So it's his teammates and coaches job to motivate him. I believe it's the individual who's ultimately responsible, you have to want it. I don't like blaming others for an individual's mistakes and/or shortcomings.

different mentality

 

[BMiller52]

Ok since you guys are debating Peja and Mike here's my take on Peja:

He doesn't have that "when I get the ball this game is OVER" mentality that is needed to win close games. Last night with like 1 minute left to go, Mike hit a 3 and you could kinda see it on his face. Peja just doesn't have that. He's also a bad rebounder but he's a decent passer and an awesome shooter with decent defense. He still needs someone like a CWebb or a Shaq or a Duncan though because he just doesn't have that "when I get the ball on this last shot the game is over" mentality. Mike has that, Peja doesn't. Every team needs a guy like that, and that is what makes Mike more valuable.

 

[Team Dime]

Ok since you guys are debating Peja and Mike here's my take on Peja:

He doesn't have that "when I get the ball this game is OVER" mentality that is needed to win close games. Last night with like 1 minute left to go, Mike hit a 3 and you could kinda see it on his face. Peja just doesn't have that. He's also a bad rebounder but he's a decent passer and an awesome shooter with decent defense. He still needs someone like a CWebb or a Shaq or a Duncan though because he just doesn't have that "when I get the ball on this last shot the game is over" mentality. Mike has that, Peja doesn't. Every team needs a guy like that, and that is what makes Mike more valuable.

Exactly.

 

[Wuster]

Ok since you guys are debating Peja and Mike here's my take on Peja:

He doesn't have that "when I get the ball this game is OVER" mentality that is needed to win close games. Last night with like 1 minute left to go, Mike hit a 3 and you could kinda see it on his face. Peja just doesn't have that. He's also a bad rebounder but he's a decent passer and an awesome shooter with decent defense. He still needs someone like a CWebb or a Shaq or a Duncan though because he just doesn't have that "when I get the ball on this last shot the game is over" mentality. Mike has that, Peja doesn't. Every team needs a guy like that, and that is what makes Mike more valuable.

Mike is more valuable in certain situations, no argument. And end of games is clearly one of them. But defensively, for example and on the other hand, it's not the case vs. Peja. Mike is more of a liability.

I definitely agree that Peja needs a CWebb or comparable guy. Reef isn't that guy (yet). Might develop into it, but I don't see it.

 

[BMiller52]

Mike is more valuable in certain situations, no argument. And end of games is clearly one of them. But defensively, for example and on the other hand, it's not the case vs. Peja. Mike is more of a liability.

I definitely agree that Peja needs a CWebb or comparable guy. Reef isn't that guy (yet). Might develop into it, but I don't see it.

Well, point guard's defense unless your name is J-Kidd, Chauncey Billups, or Gary Payton IMO(and I know I'm gonna get bashed for this) doesn't matter that much. Like Nash can penetrate no matter what and Tony Parker can penetrate no matter what. It only really matters against the PG's that shoot a lot of threes. I've seen people call it "funneling the ball to the shot blocker" when tony parker loses his man because he has TD under the hoop. When Mike loses his man, they call it what it is-losing his man. No I'm not saying Mike is good or even mediocre on defense, but he's not as horrible as we're lead to believe. At times I've even seen him play decent defence and most of the time he gets a hand in the face of the guy. Really though as long as you have a shot blocker it doesn't hurt your defense as much as bad as Mike's defense ACTUALLY IS. Hope everybody understands what I'm saying(and no I'm not saying Mike is even nearly as good as Tony Parker defensively, just that he's not as bad as we're led to believe and that the problem is easily fixed as long as you have a shot blocker).

 

[nbrans]

I guess it's not important to have a good small forward defender either? Because TMac and LeBron are just going to penetrate anyway?

Better yet, why play defense at all? The entire defense is up to Shareef and Brad. The other three players can just play offense and save their energy.

 

[Team Dime]

I guess it's not important to have a good small forward defender either? Because TMac and LeBron are just going to penetrate anyway?

Better yet, why play defense at all? The entire defense is up to Shareef and Brad. The other three players can just play offense and save their energy.

We already know that Brad doens't play D and Reef is not a consistent rebounder. Basically, the whole team outside of Bonzi doesn't play consistent D.

 

[nbrans]

We already know that Brad doens't play D and Reef is not a consistent rebounder. Basically, the whole team outside of Bonzi doesn't play consistent D.

But Bibby is exempt from playing defense because the Kings don't have a shotblocker, in case you haven't heard.

 

[Team Dime]

But Bibby is exempt from playing defense because the Kings don't have a shotblocker, in case you haven't heard.

Don't put words in my mouth just b/c you think someone else is implying that.

Bibby needs to put forth more consistent effort on defense and be more consistent offensively as well.

However, I'm rating each player's worth to the team based on their specialties. Bibby's meal ticket is his offense/his clutch shooting while Peja's is his shooting. I think both over the course of his time here and this season that Bibby has been more valuable and more consistent to the Kings in those areas.

 

[nbrans]

Don't put words in my mouth just b/c you think someone else is implying that.

I wasn't trying to imply that was your sentiment, you've been consistent in expressing that he doesn't get a free pass. I think you're right that Bibby's best attribute is his clutch play, and it's absolutely a crucial part of the Kings' success.

I didn't mean to make this a Bibby vs. Peja thing, however my angst comes in part because Bibby really coasts through on this board without a lot of criticism and Peja has become the scapegoat. It's not that I'm a Peja fan or a Bibby hater, it just gets really tiresome to read the same old things about Peja (soft soft soft blah blah blah) without seeing the same people hold Bibby to the same standard.

 

[BMiller52]

I'm not saying Bibby doesn't need to play defense... Because I wish he would. BUT, if we had a good shotblocker in the rotation, it'd be less of a problem.

 

[Zyphen]

I disagree. Just because Bibby doesn't play defense doesn't mean he can't play defense. He's never going to be a stopper because he doesn't have the athleticism, but he has shown sporadically that he can be a more than capable defender, such as against Milwaukee this year. He just coasts on defense.

If he were conserving his energy on the defensive end because he was exerting so much effort on offense I might forgive him, however it's not like he's straining himself on offense either.

Just because Peja doesn't play in the post doesn't mean he can't. He's never going to be a premiere post player because he doesn't have the athleticism, but he is tall enough to take it to someone. I've seen him make lay-ups before, I'm sure of it. And he may have tried shooting over a shorter player at some point.

If he were conserving his energy so that his shots have more accuracy, I might forgive him. However, it's not like he's straining himself shooting open jumpers or off screens.

 

[Zyphen]

I wasn't trying to imply that was your sentiment, you've been consistent in expressing that he doesn't get a free pass. I think you're right that Bibby's best attribute is his clutch play, and it's absolutely a crucial part of the Kings' success.

I didn't mean to make this a Bibby vs. Peja thing, however my angst comes in part because Bibby really coasts through on this board without a lot of criticism and Peja has become the scapegoat. It's not that I'm a Peja fan or a Bibby hater, it just gets really tiresome to read the same old things about Peja (soft soft soft blah blah blah) without seeing the same people hold Bibby to the same standard.

Name the things that Peja and Bibby have in common that we should also be criticizing Bibby for. Apples and Oranges. Bibby has his own set of problems. And I don't know what you mean by coasting. Bibby was ripped for not being able to carry this team after the Webber trade and at the beginning of this year too. But people accept that fact more readily because he's never carried a team. He's just a good but not great point guard. We shouldn't expect him to become better than he's ever been. If he does, great. If not, then he should aspire to hold his baseline (which he's getting closer to as the team gels, imo).

 

[nbrans]

Just because Peja doesn't play in the post doesn't mean he can't. He's never going to be a premiere post player because he doesn't have the athleticism, but he is tall enough to take it to someone. I've seen him make lay-ups before, I'm sure of it. And he may have tried shooting over a shorter player at some point.

If he were conserving his energy so that his shots have more accuracy, I might forgive him. However, it's not like he's straining himself shooting open jumpers or off screens.

I think you're trying to be clever here, but I've never seen Peja exhibit any post moves. It would be nice if he did.

Name the things that Peja and Bibby have in common that we should also be criticizing Bibby for. Apples and Oranges. Bibby has his own set of problems. And I don't know what you mean by coasting. Bibby was ripped for not being able to carry this team after the Webber trade and at the beginning of this year too. But people accept that fact more readily because he's never carried a team. He's just a good but not great point guard. We shouldn't expect him to become better than he's ever been. If he does, great. If not, then he should aspire to hold his baseline (which he's getting closer to as the team gels, imo).

Wow, so it's totally cool to accept mediocrity from Bibby because he's a good, not great point guard, but you're going to rip Peja for not having a post game when that's not even his game? You're going to rip Peja for missing shots and not developing an entirely new element to his game, but we shouldn't expect Bibby to get better?

Bias!!!

Look, I really don't want to make this a Bibby/Peja thing because I really don't like one over the other, but it does mystify me that Bibby coasts around these parts when people are all too happy to heap scorn on Peja.

 

[Zyphen]

I think you're trying to be clever here, but I've never seen Peja exhibit any post moves. It would be nice if he did.



Wow, so it's totally cool to accept mediocrity from Bibby because he's a good, not great point guard, but you're going to rip Peja for not having a post game when that's not even his game? You're going to rip Peja for missing shots and not developing an entirely new element to his game, but we shouldn't expect Bibby to get better?

Bias!!!

Look, I really don't want to make this a Bibby/Peja thing because I really don't like one over the other, but it does mystify me that Bibby coasts around these parts when people are all too happy to heap scorn on Peja.

Somehow, I expected you to come to this conclusion. People make leaps when arguments don't go their way.

I don't think the sarcasm was lost on you because you noted my cleverness, but in case it was, let me explain. Ripping Bibby for his bad defense is akin to ripping Peja for his non-existant post game or clutch play. I have no problem with doing it but in this context, it makes no sense. The argument here is (or at least the one I'm trying to make): who's doing more poorly in regards to their baseline?

Mediocrity from Bibby is not acceptable. But Peja isn't even at mediocrity yet. They're both playing crappy but Bibby's relative crappiness is at a lesser level than Peja's.

Now if you want to discuss each player's flaws and strengths as a whole, I'd be happy to bring in Bibby's lack of defense and Peja's lack of depth. But then this becomes a team building discussion, which wasn't the focus. Bibby's limitations and projected salary for the future are more to my tastes than Peja's. That's not to say I have any particular liking for Bibby's game because honestly, I'd be willing to shop both of them. But in a relative sense, there it is. But again, this is a different topic of discussion. We're talking about who's been doing worse this year and I disagree with the assessment that Bibby and Peja are equally disappointing. Peja has been significantly more disappointing.

 

[Andriod_KiNg]

Wrong Topic

 

[Andriod_KiNg]

Wrong Topic :d

 

[nbrans]

Somehow, I expected you to come to this conclusion. People make leaps when arguments don't go their way.

I don't think the sarcasm was lost on you because you noted my cleverness, but in case it was, let me explain. Ripping Bibby for his bad defense is akin to ripping Peja for his non-existant post game or clutch play. I have no problem with doing it but in this context, it makes no sense. The argument here is (or at least the one I'm trying to make): who's doing more poorly in regards to their baseline?

Mediocrity from Bibby is not acceptable. But Peja isn't even at mediocrity yet. They're both playing crappy but Bibby's relative crappiness is at a lesser level than Peja's.

Now if you want to discuss each player's flaws and strengths as a whole, I'd be happy to bring in Bibby's lack of defense and Peja's lack of depth. But then this becomes a team building discussion, which wasn't the focus. Bibby's limitations and projected salary for the future are more to my tastes than Peja's. That's not to say I have any particular liking for Bibby's game because honestly, I'd be willing to shop both of them. But in a relative sense, there it is. But again, this is a different topic of discussion. We're talking about who's been doing worse this year and I disagree with the assessment that Bibby and Peja are equally disappointing. Peja has been significantly more disappointing.

There's a big difference between lacking an offensive skill set and simply not playing defense. I'm sorry, but Bibby knows how to play defense. He has shown he can play defense. I'm not going to sit around and say "Gee, Bibby doesn't play defense very well, I guess he CAN'T play defense."

Comparing a lack of a post game to a lack of defensive intensity is just not even a comporable discussion. You don't hustle your way into a post game. You don't sweat your way into it and focus your way into it. If Bibby always showed intensity on the defensive end I'd forgive his lapses and chalk them up to a lack of athleticism. But he's proven to be quite content with mostly mailing it in on the defensive end, and I'm not going to forgive him that.

 

[Zyphen]

There's a big difference between lacking an offensive skill set and simply not playing defense. I'm sorry, but Bibby knows how to play defense. He has shown he can play defense. I'm not going to sit around and say "Gee, Bibby doesn't play defense very well, I guess he CAN'T play defense."

Comparing a lack of a post game to a lack of defensive intensity is just not even a comporable discussion. You don't hustle your way into a post game. You don't sweat your way into it and focus your way into it. If Bibby always showed intensity on the defensive end I'd forgive his lapses and chalk them up to a lack of athleticism. But he's proven to be quite content with mostly mailing it in on the defensive end, and I'm not going to forgive him that.

I'm not trying to directly compare the two. Obviously, I'd rather Bibby be a good defender over Peja developing a post game. The point was made to put things in perspective about their actual decline in play.

Bibby hasn't been any more disappointing in terms of defense than any other year. He's been a disappointment on offense.

Peja has been disappointing on defense. Peja has been even more disappointing on offense. Peja has disappointed more on offense than Bibby has. Peja's defensive lapse is just icing on the crap cake.

 

[BigWaxer]

I thought this was a thread for grades.... 8 pages later...