Grades v. Warriors 12/12

[HighFlyingMonkey]

The thing is, do we want Martin to become the player that you isolate one-on-one and have him take his man in Kobe or Tmac-esque fashion?

I'm not saying that it is not a huge asset to have, but when you have teams like that, they are normally one-man teams. They kill a lot of ball movement.

Not to mention that dribbling around isn't Martin's specific talent. He moves so well without the ball, why not mold him into a Reggie Miller like player? The one who beats his man moving around without the ball, and when he gets the ball, it's a catch-and-shoot, or taking it to the hole to score.

Remember what happened when we asked Peja to be able to beat his man one-on-one. That was moving away from his talents, and I don't think it's a good idea to see the same thing happen with Martin.

 

[Bricklayer]

I still maintain that Martin doesn't flop as a matter of course. He may exaggerate at times - what player doesn't? - but he is nothing like the great ones, such as Manu, Vlade, etc.

No, if you want to draw a line (a VERY fine line ) between floppers and exaggerators, then Kevin is more exaggerator than flopper. As mentioned, he reminds me a lot of Reggie Miller in the wild gesticulations at contact (most of wwhihc he initiated of course). But that works in the NBA. IMHO it really shouldn't -- think the league should initiate an anti-flop rule like they have in hockey and T people up for acting. Whetehr something is a foul or not should never come down to somebody's acting/exaggerating skills, and frankly who is more worthy of respect, the guy who takes the punsihement stoically and just tries to finish the play, or the way flailing around lookign for the ref to bail him out? Second guy is just being smart givent he way games are called in the NBA, but the games really shouldn't be called in such a fashion as to encourage that.

 

[VF21]

No, if you want to draw a line (a VERY fine line ) between floppers and exaggerators, then Kevin is more exaggerator than flopper. As mentioned, he reminds me a lot of Reggie Miller in the wild gesticulations at contact (most of wwhihc he initiated of course). But that works in the NBA. IMHO it really shouldn't -- think the league should initiate an anti-flop rule like they have in hockey and T people up for acting. Whetehr something is a foul or not should never come down to somebody's acting/exaggerating skills, and frankly who is more worthy of respect, the guy who takes the punsihement stoically and just tries to finish the play, or the way flailing around lookign for the ref to bail him out? Second guy is just being smart givent he way games are called in the NBA, but the games really shouldn't be called in such a fashion as to encourage that.

Martin takes a lot of punishment out there. I think you're being unfair in making it sound as though he doesn't. He picks himself up without comment after hits you can hear all the way to the rafters. I know, I've been there to hear some of them.

But I suppose we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[Bricklayer]

The thing is, do we want Martin to become the player that you isolate one-on-one and have him take his man in Kobe or Tmac-esque fashion?

I'm not saying that it is not a huge asset to have, but when you have teams like that, they are normally one-man teams. They kill a lot of ball movement. Martin moves so well without the ball, why not mold him into a Reggie Miller like player? The one who beats his man moving around without the ball, and when he gets the ball, it's a catch-and-shoot, or taking it to the hole to score.

Remember what happened when we asked Peja to be able to beat his man one-on-one. That was moving away from his talents, and I don't think it's a good idea to see the same thing happen with Martin.

Well if we want Keivn to morph into a true star ratehr than support player, yes that is the development you would want him to have. As is, he can be taken away just by very attentive defense. The ability to beat your man one on one even when guarded is the thing that can't be taken away. Other thing would be passing. I've repeatedly drawn comparisons between he and Peja despite the obviously completely different physicques/athleticism, and that's a great thing to get out of a late pick. But Peja could never be the man -- his game was pure second bananna because he couldn't do it alone. Kevin at least looks like he might be ablt to if he keeps on working. Maybe, But it would certainly be wroht the attempt. To take the next step he has to become both more aggressive vs. his man one on one, and I think also critially far more aggressive as a passer. When teams roatate over on him and show a soft double, he can't just passively swing that ball over to the next guy -- he's got to make them pay for that with skip passes to whoever is open. If he can do those things, then he can't be taken away at will anymore. Then he's dangerous even if teams are focused on him.

 

[Padrino]

Well if we want Keivn to morph into a true star ratehr than support player, yes that is the development you would want him to have. As is, he can be taken away just by very attentive defense. The ability to beat your man one on one even when guarded is the thing that can't be taken away. Other thing would be passing. I've repeatedly drawn comparisons between he and Peja despite the obviously completely different physicques/athleticism, and that's a great thing to get out of a late pick. But Peja could never be the man -- his game was pure second bananna because he couldn't do it alone. Kevin at least looks like he might be ablt to if he keeps on working. Maybe, But it would certainly be wroht the attempt. To take the next step he has to become both more aggressive vs. his man one on one, and I think also critially far more aggressive as a passer. When teams roatate over on him and show a soft double, he can't just passively swing that ball over to the next guy -- he's got to make them pay for that with skip passes to whoever is open. If he can do those things, then he can't be taken away at will anymore. Then he's dangerous even if teams are focused on him.

i think this is a very excellent point that can be applied to the entire team. in general, what i've been seeing in the games i've been able to watch this season is a lot of ball swinging, but little in the way of legitimate ball movement. the kings need to get back to making passing plays. sometimes on offense, it seems like they think that giving the ball to someone else constitutes positive team play. it really doesn't. it shows a lack of trust in the abilities of your teammates. all of the great passers know that you rarely actually pass directly to your teammates. you've gotta give the ball to a teammate when he's in a position to score. there's a lotta swinging around the perimeter going on these days, and that's why we're seeing such a high concentration of three point shots. nobody is receiving passes in places where they're in a position to hit a high percentage bucket...except kevin martin, who has a wider range than most on the kings and hits his shots with an incredible consistency. in general, when you make a pass play, you are throwing the ball to a spot on the court, where you trust that your teammate will be. that's what made vlade and webber so damn good at what they did. they trusted their teammates enough to believe that they'd be where they were supposed to be. kevin martin is a heady player, and i think he can develop a passing game, but its gonna take a concerted team effort for it to matter.