[Grades] Grades v. Suns 3/4/12

[lwc]

I will say it again, I will probably say it after the next game as well: IT, TYREKE AND MARCUS CANNOT BE ON THE FLOOR AT THE SAME TIME! One of them has to be a 6th man. IMO, it is either Tyreke or Marcus as the 6th man. Since IT took over the 1, the teams turnovers have drastically dropped!

 

[RKDfan]

I want to see this rotation so bad:
G Evans
G Jimmer
F Greene
F Hayes
C Cuz

Bench:
Thornton
IT
JT
Cisco
Salmons
Hickson (If bigs in foul trouble)

I hate Smart's rotations so much.

 

[lwc]

I want to see this rotation so bad:
G Evans
G Jimmer
F Greene
F Hayes
C Cuz

Bench:
Thornton
IT
JT
Cisco
Salmons
Hickson (If bigs in foul trouble)

I hate Smart's rotations so much.

Love it!

 

[RKDfan]

Love it!

Me too. The starting lineup isn't puny and neither is the bench. I feel that it's very balanced. I know Smart would never do that though.

 

[Tetsujin]

I want to see this rotation so bad:
G Evans
G Jimmer
F Greene
F Hayes
C Cuz

Bench:
Thornton
IT
JT
Cisco
Salmons
Hickson (If bigs in foul trouble)

I hate Smart's rotations so much.

Jimmer hasn't really done anything aside from importing a massive vocal fanbase to warrant starting him over MT or IT at this point. Defense is our main problem right now. Starting Jimmer isn't going to alleviate that in anyway.

 

[Hansel]

This team has the lowest basketball IQ I've ever seen on a court.
It seems like most players of this team have never played basketball in their lives.

 

[Dime Dropper]

People will roll their eyes or feel sick at the thought, but this draft is far more important than people realise. It could be the one that starts to truly turn things around for us. Of course we need solid veterans, but unless you're getting a great player back, people will regret trading it.

 

[jcunny33]

Jimmer's shooting and passing abilities outweigh his defensive liability. He has shown this with 8 to 12 point quarters w/several assists..often hitting several 3's in a row. Last night he took 1 shot in 10 minutes which was not his choice. He would pass the ball and never touch it again w/teammates throwing up bricks and no plays designed to get him shots. He has had his confidence back for a while now. Perimeter scoring is practically non-existent without Jimmer playing. His scoring abilities are being wasted.

 

[LWP777]

It's amazing to me how many people on this board think Donte Greene is a good player and should be interested into the starting lineup. The guy is terrible and should be reserved to Mateening on the bench or playing in the Chinese Basketball League. He is a career 40% shooter (31% from 3 Pt, 69% FT) and has a horrible basketball IQ. He's constantly taking bad shots, making bad decisions, and he does NOTHING well. He is not the answer as a starter for us. He's had 4 years now to "develop" so it's pretty obvious that's not ever going to happen.....

P.S. Outlaw should never see the floor again either. I couldn't believe the mistakes he was making on both sides of the court last night in his limited minutes.

 

[Section 101]

It's amazing to me how many people on this board think Donte Greene is a good player and should be interested into the starting lineup. The guy is terrible and should be reserved to Mateening on the bench or playing in the Chinese Basketball League. He is a career 40% shooter (31% from 3 Pt, 69% FT) and has a horrible basketball IQ. He's constantly taking bad shots, making bad decisions, and he does NOTHING well. He is not the answer as a starter for us. He's had 4 years now to "develop" so it's pretty obvious that's not ever going to happen.....

P.S. Outlaw should never see the floor again either. I couldn't believe the mistakes he was making on both sides of the court last night in his limited minutes.

There are tons of all stars that didn't do much their first 4 years. Look at his second year when he actually got some consistent minutes. The rest of the time he has been jerked around so yea his numbers are going to suffer.

 

[LWP777]

There are tons of all stars that didn't do much their first 4 years. Look at his second year when he actually got some consistent minutes. The rest of the time he has been jerked around so yea his numbers are going to suffer.

He's had his chances despite the coaching carousel we've had. He can't even get minutes on a bad team which desperately needs some good minutes at the SF/PW position. What does that tell you? Being jerked around doesn't make a 6'11 player shoot 40% from the floor. Being jerked around doesn't make a player constantly make poor decisions on the basketball court.

We really needed either JT or Donte to pan out and become a very good player in order for us to be ahead of where we are right now as a franchise. Unfortunately, both are disappointments and will be role players for the rest of their careers.

 

[Section 101]

He's had his chances despite the coaching carousel we've had. He can't even get minutes on a bad team which desperately needs some good minutes at the SF/PW position. What does that tell you? Being jerked around doesn't make a 6'11 player shoot 40% from the floor. Being jerked around doesn't make a player constantly make poor decisions on the basketball court.

We really needed either JT or Donte to pan out and become a very good player in order for us to be ahead of where we are right now as a franchise. Unfortunately, both are disappointments and will be role players for the rest of their careers.

Being jerked around absolutely will screw up your shooting %. You don't get into a rhythm when looking over your shoulder or forcing things in limited playtime. Like I said look at his 2nd year numbers where he got some consistent playtime.

 

[Npliam]

So I didn't get to watch the game but reading this thread (and the game thread) it sounds like the general consensus is that Jimmer was getting burned all over the place by Nash and Telfair. Looking at the play by play it doesn't look that way at all. Steve Nash score 3 points (he got and "and 1" when Reke fouled him) and that was it. Nash missed a jumper and then he didn't have a point or an assist until he got subbed out for Telfair. Telfair went 1 for 3 with no assists while Jimmer was guarding him. so Nash and Telfair went 2-5 with no assists when Jimmer was guarding them. Telfair did have a couple of rebounds while Jimmer was on him.

Also worth noting is that when Jimmer entered the game the kings were down 4. when he came out the Kings were down 2 after the Suns hit a technical free throw.

I know that I am a Jimmer fan and think he will be a good point guard in the league. I also agree that he is no defensive stopper but for all the criticism he gets for his defense the numbers don't look that bad.

 

[pshn80]

Does all the ideas and suggestions that this thread proposes give us the hint that coaching this bunch of guys, the rotations we use is a crap shoot? The gist - anything but what we do.

Which of the abore lineups should coach Smart try first? How long should he stay with it? Same question for the coach you would replace him with. I think we are on to something - let the coach coach and sit back and hope for the best. We haven't got a team good enough to get a new coach.

The Question: Are you willing to give up the three guard lineup? Answer: As long as Evans isn't the primary pg/distributor I don't care how many guards you play.

 

[mcsluggo]

He's had his chances despite the coaching carousel we've had. He can't even get minutes on a bad team which desperately needs some good minutes at the SF/PW position. What does that tell you? Being jerked around doesn't make a 6'11 player shoot 40% from the floor. Being jerked around doesn't make a player constantly make poor decisions on the basketball court.

We really needed either JT or Donte to pan out and become a very good player in order for us to be ahead of where we are right now as a franchise. Unfortunately, both are disappointments and will be role players for the rest of their careers.

Agreed... they are both roleplayer, and should be played as such. That doesn't mean that neither can contribute, just don't expect either to be THE THING.. at all. But both can play d and can hustle, and can put up junk points occasionally as the non-focus of the offense.

(the one think that really perplexes me is whythehell doesn't Donte get more junk boards...? (it goes back the b-bll IQ..I kow.. but hammer it home to him that he COULD be solid rotation roleplayer based primarily on D and boards... he could he could)

 

[Kingster]

Just wondering, how many want to keep the 3 guard lineup?

I do. Until we have somebody better at the 3.

 

[Kingster]

It's amazing to me how many people on this board think Donte Greene is a good player and should be interested into the starting lineup. The guy is terrible and should be reserved to Mateening on the bench or playing in the Chinese Basketball League. He is a career 40% shooter (31% from 3 Pt, 69% FT) and has a horrible basketball IQ. He's constantly taking bad shots, making bad decisions, and he does NOTHING well. He is not the answer as a starter for us. He's had 4 years now to "develop" so it's pretty obvious that's not ever going to happen.....

P.S. Outlaw should never see the floor again either. I couldn't believe the mistakes he was making on both sides of the court last night in his limited minutes.

Unfortunately, I have to agree. Donte is not the answer at the 3. We keep going around and around when it comes to the 3 position. There is no great answer at the 3. That's why we talk about it so much. And until we trade/draft/or FA acquire one, the beat will keep on beating.

 

[Kingster]

Who dissapointed the most?

Thompson, by far. He gets an F in that first half. He was gawdaweful.

 

[LWP777]

Unfortunately, I have to agree. Donte is not the answer at the 3. We keep going around and around when it comes to the 3 position. There is no great answer at the 3. That's why we talk about it so much. And until we trade/draft/or FA acquire one, the beat will keep on beating.

Agreed. At this point I'm wondering if it's best to just give Cisco the minutes. At least he's a perimeter threat and sometimes can play defense.

 

[rainmaker]

So I didn't get to watch the game but reading this thread (and the game thread) it sounds like the general consensus is that Jimmer was getting burned all over the place by Nash and Telfair. Looking at the play by play it doesn't look that way at all. Steve Nash score 3 points (he got and "and 1" when Reke fouled him) and that was it. Nash missed a jumper and then he didn't have a point or an assist until he got subbed out for Telfair. Telfair went 1 for 3 with no assists while Jimmer was guarding him. so Nash and Telfair went 2-5 with no assists when Jimmer was guarding them. Telfair did have a couple of rebounds while Jimmer was on him.

Also worth noting is that when Jimmer entered the game the kings were down 4. when he came out the Kings were down 2 after the Suns hit a technical free throw.

I know that I am a Jimmer fan and think he will be a good point guard in the league. I also agree that he is no defensive stopper but for all the criticism he gets for his defense the numbers don't look that bad.

Jimmer fans practically beg for others to point out his shortcommings by constantly saying he needs to play more and generally putting his playing time or shot attempts ahead of the team as a whole. Which of course leads to others pointing out why Jimmer isn't playing more and what he needs to improve on, which then leads to Jimmer fans undermining his weaknesses and pretending his matador defense along with season long stats which back that up don't matter.

It's pretty telling how with all the problems this team has, Jimmer fans put Jimmer not playing enough or getting enough shots at the top of the list. I like Jimmer, and even predicted he'd be our pg by 3/1. Boy was I wrong! He's not ready. Right now he's probably 8th in the rotation, best as a spot up shooter, and if he's not hitting isn't helping. But we have some serious problems with this team and Jimmer isn't at the top of that list at this point. Constantly harping on him and not the other more important issues is doing a disservice to Jimmer. Very similar to Omri fans coming on here and acting like him not getting enough shots was our biggest problem, yet when Omri left they all followed as they didn't give two s***s about the team in the first place.

 

[Npliam]

Jimmer fans practically beg for others to point out his shortcommings by constantly saying he needs to play more and generally putting his playing time or shot attempts ahead of the team as a whole. Which of course leads to others pointing out why Jimmer isn't playing more and what he needs to improve on, which then leads to Jimmer fans undermining his weaknesses and pretending his matador defense along with season long stats which back that up don't matter.

It's pretty telling how with all the problems this team has, Jimmer fans put Jimmer not playing enough or getting enough shots at the top of the list. I like Jimmer, and even predicted he'd be our pg by 3/1. Boy was I wrong! He's not ready. Right now he's probably 8th in the rotation, best as a spot up shooter, and if he's not hitting isn't helping. But we have some serious problems with this team and Jimmer isn't at the top of that list at this point. Constantly harping on him and not the other more important issues is doing a disservice to Jimmer. Very similar to Omri fans coming on here and acting like him not getting enough shots was our biggest problem, yet when Omri left they all followed as they didn't give two s***s about the team in the first place.

Nice strawman. Good job in not responding to the post.

 

[rainmaker]

Nice strawman. Good job in not responding to the post.

Oh, I pretty much tackled the post head on, you just didn't like the response. And I won't sit here and carry this further with someone who admitted in his first sentence he didn't even watch the game. Back to work now.

 

[Npliam]

Oh, I pretty much tackled the post head on, you just didn't like the response. And I won't sit here and carry this further with someone who admitted in his first sentence he didn't even watch the game. Back to work now.

I admitted I didn't watch the game because it is relevant to my post that the stats don't show him getting beat on defense as bad as everone was saying. Please enlighten me on what I was missing. Was Jimmer getting beat and it just didn't show up in the play by play? Did he get beat once but was serviceable the rest of the time he was out there? I don't know.

FWIW I didn't say in my post that Jimmer should be getting more minutes although judging by the stats IT was horrendous shooting 3-13 with 2 assist in 32 min. My post to simply asking what I was missing? How was he so bad defensively?

 

[Tetsujin]

I admitted I didn't watch the game because it is relevant to my post that the stats don't show him getting beat on defense as bad as everone was saying. Please enlighten me on what I was missing. Was Jimmer getting beat and it just didn't show up in the play by play? Did he get beat once but was serviceable the rest of the time he was out there? I don't know.

FWIW I didn't say in my post that Jimmer should be getting more minutes although judging by the stats IT was horrendous shooting 3-13 with 2 assist in 32 min. My post to simply asking what I was missing? How was he so bad defensively?

Ah yes, the much vaunted "Sure my guy was bad but this guy was bad too" response. There is nothing wrong with admitting a player's faults. There is, however, something wrong with completely ignoring his faults and weaknesses.

Jimmer's main problem on defense at this point is that he can't really play any. He tends to get sucked into traps only to come out on the complete opposite side of the court from his man in addition to generally poor lateral quickness. What this winds up doing is force the rest of the team to try to compensate for him, leading to their own man having an extra window to make a play when Jimmer's guy passes them the ball. Now, this isn't deadly against the Derek Fishers of the world, but against the Steve Nashes, you wind up getting murdered. Now this isn't a problem exclusive to Jimmer though. IT has this problem to a lesser degree but is able to partially make up for it with his blazing closing speed, which Jimmer of course lacks.

 

[Npliam]

Ah yes, the much vaunted "Sure my guy was bad but this guy was bad too" response. There is nothing wrong with admitting a player's faults. There is, however, something wrong with completely ignoring his faults and weaknesses.

Jimmer's main problem on defense at this point is that he can't really play any. He tends to get sucked into traps only to come out on the complete opposite side of the court from his man in addition to generally poor lateral quickness. What this winds up doing is force the rest of the team to try to compensate for him, leading to their own man having an extra window to make a play when Jimmer's guy passes them the ball. Now, this isn't deadly against the Derek Fishers of the world, but against the Steve Nashes, you wind up getting murdered. Now this isn't a problem exclusive to Jimmer though. IT has this problem to a lesser degree but is able to partially make up for it with his blazing closing speed, which Jimmer of course lacks.

That is kind of my point. According to the stats, Jimmer didn't get murdered.

 

[Spike]

That is kind of my point. According to the stats, Jimmer didn't get murdered.

But if you saw the game, he did. That doesn't show up in the play-by-play. He was often flat-footed, and on one drive to the basket, he tried to cut through Hayes, instead of going over the top (which wouldn't have worked) or underneath.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm hoping that Jimmer is the long term solution. I'm hoping that he's the guard next to Evans next year, with Thornton off the bench, or at least getting major minutes in the Beno role. He's just not there yet.

Tonight he has a good opportunity, as Denver has been pretty banged up, but we'll see.

 

[Kingster]

Agreed. At this point I'm wondering if it's best to just give Cisco the minutes. At least he's a perimeter threat and sometimes can play defense.

I'm really starting to wonder if it matters. I don't disagree with Garcia playing the 3. He's a decent ballhandler for a 3. And I don't disagree with Tyreke playing the 3. He obviously has the most athleticism of any "3" that we have. But you're still left with inadequacies - either an unathletic 3 in Garcia, or a non-outside shooting and slightly undersized 3 in Tyreke. I think if Garcia played the three, Tyreke the 2, and Thornton was a 6th man, you wouldn't have much of a difference from where we are at currently.

 

[Dr. Spaceman]

That is kind of my point. According to the stats, Jimmer didn't get murdered.

If you've watched the sport for any reasonable length of time, you'd know that stats hardly ever tell the complete story. So to brazenly argue from such a weak platform as someone who didn't even see the game blows my mind. Having seen the game, I can say that he was gettung burned on the PnR repeatedly. On offense, he was a non entity. He didn't bother to move around to create passing lanes when he was off the ball, so he never foundhimself in a position to contribute.

Its not like he's being frozen out, either.You watch the highlight of hi against the Clippers and youll see that his teammates know what he can do and go crazy when he actually does it.

 

[ArcoKings]

But if you saw the game, he did. That doesn't show up in the play-by-play. He was often flat-footed, and on one drive to the basket, he tried to cut through Hayes, instead of going over the top (which wouldn't have worked) or underneath.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm hoping that Jimmer is the long term solution. I'm hoping that he's the guard next to Evans next year, with Thornton off the bench, or at least getting major minutes in the Beno role. He's just not there yet.

Tonight he has a good opportunity, as Denver has been pretty banged up, but we'll see.

Man, oh man, do I miss Beno Udrih. I just can't stop thinking that the Kings would be better if Beno was still around. That's for another thread.

Go Kings!

 

[Npliam]

If you've watched the sport for any reasonable length of time, you'd know that stats hardly ever tell the complete story. So to brazenly argue from such a weak platform as someone who didn't even see the game blows my mind. Having seen the game, I can say that he was gettung burned on the PnR repeatedly. On offense, he was a non entity. He didn't bother to move around to create passing lanes when he was off the ball, so he never foundhimself in a position to contribute.

Its not like he's being frozen out, either.You watch the highlight of hi against the Clippers and youll see that his teammates know what he can do and go crazy when he actually does it.

I didn't brazenly argue anything. My question was what was I missing? If he was getting burned on P and R then why didn't the Suns score on those possessions?