[Grades] Grades v. Sixers 11/9/17

Rookie of the Year


  • Total voters
    57
#31
Well that certainly was fun wasn't it?


Going up against the huge collection (literally and figuratively) of top level young prospects and JJ Reddick and Amir Johnson for some reason, the young Kings (and Z-Bo) put up quite the fight and somehow, someway scrapped and scraped their way to a stolen victory, culminating in the much maligned Willie (Receding Hairline) Cauley-Stein swatting the hell out of Joel Embiid and De'Aaron Fox leading the team to victory despite missing a poopton of free throws and looking like a rookie.

In the battle of the Process versus the Vlade-cess, tonight the one year hastily put-together avalanche of teenagers and old dudes won out. Today was a good day, indeed.

(PS, be sure to read through to the end of this grade post for the return of a much loved Kingsfans.com feature.)


Bogdan Bogdanovic (C) -- 22 min, 9 pt, 3 rb, 2 ast, 1 stl, 1 blk, 2 tov, 1 pf
Unlike almost every other game he's played this season, Bogdan looked like a rookie for most of the night, getting overwhelmed by the Sixers and their superior size and athleticism. Then, come the third quarter, solid basketball vet Bogy showed up and joined the fun, wasting no motion on offense, playing within himself on defense, and just generally being a net positive on the game's result. On the year, while his stats may not be that great, the Serb's probably been our third or fourth best player, which is more than you can ask for from a guy playing his first games in a new league in a new country.

Zach Randolph (A) -- 29 min, 20 pt, 7 rb, 2 ast, 2 stl, 0 blk, 2 tov, 1 pf
Matched up with a bunch of young athletic dudes who were born when he was already in high school, Z-Bo had his second consecutive solid performance. Thanks to the fact that he was never really that great an athlete in the first place, old man Randolph's game has aged well and he's additionally come to learn how to play within himself on defense without completely giving up the ghost and letting his man have a career night. Also, while the Sixers may all be young, athletic, and talented, none of them seemed to have an answer for Z-Bo's ripped-straight-from-the-80s old man inside game. Couple that with the consistent appearance of 3-Bo throughout the young season, and you have a legitimate argument that the two year contract was worth it.

Willie Cauley-Stein (A) -- 24 min, 15 pt, 4 rb, 1 ast, 0 stl, 2 blk, 0 tov, 3 pf
And the game changer that is a defensively engaged Willie Cauley-Stein was on full display tonight. When the Kings drafted him, they did so with the goal of drafting a defensively centerpiece capable of guarding all five positions on the floor and occasionally providing highlight plays on offense. Oddly, however, as he's developed as a pro, it has been Willie's offensive game that has become a constant and his defense that has become a question mark. This all brings us to Trill's absolutely magnificent performance against the monstrous hulk of a basketball player that is Joel Embiid, in which he was every bit the defensive presence that we all hoped he could be. Watch him in crunch time in the fourth quarter. See how he counters Embiid's length and power with his quickness and agility, how quickly he glides around the court to apply help pressure. Now, you can make the argument that Willie should be pulling down more than four rebounds in a game but tonight he was off the boards playing man-to-man defense most of the night so it's hard to fault him on that end. So far, buzzcut Willie = longterm starter Willie.

Garrett Temple (C) -- 25 min, 7 pt, 2 rb, 1 ast, 1 stl, 0 blk, 0 tov, 2 pf
Garrett's shot was off the entire night. Let's start off with that. His shot looked bad all night and, while he was making the man work, he wasn't exactly shutting down 6'10" point guard Ben Simmons. But then, in crunch time, with his team sputtering after a broken play, Garrett catches a deflected pass off a ref and drills a fade away three to suddenly bring the Kings back within one point. That shot alone wouldn't have been enough to elevate GT's grade but then you remember that Garrett Temple gets the half grade bump for being one of the better defenders in the league and that brings you to a solid C grade on the night.

George Hill (C-) -- 19 min, 2 pt, 3 rb, 7 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 1 tov, 1 pf
Another game, another night where George Hill struggled to make his mark as a scorer. Let's be clear, Hill needs to score more to be an effective member of this team. Not many teams can win many games when their starting point guard is dropping two point nights. With that said, George didn't exactly have a horrible game. His own offensive game gone fishing, he did a good job setting up Willie on the run in the first half and played solid defense. In the second half, with De'Aaron at least posing some sort of threat on offense, he wound up watching a lot of the game from the bench.

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Kosta "Boogie" Kouf-sins (A) -- 20 min, 8 pt, 12 rb, 3 ast, 0 stl, 1 blk, 0 tov, 4 pf
Earlier this season, I said that the Kings didn't deserve to have a guy like Kosta on their team and it's nights like tonight that shows us why. The rebounding, the knockdown drag-out defense, the surprising craftiness on offense, it was all on display. Contrary to popular belief, Kosta is surprisingly nimble for a seven footer and is probably one of the few dudes in the league strong enough to not just get completely bulldozed by Embiid when he's going downhill. While he's never been a spectacular player, KK is as steady and reliable as Old Faithful. If there aren't a half dozen playoff contenders lining up to get Kosta on their team come the trade deadline, I can show you a half dozen GMs that should probably be fired come season's end.

Buddy Hield (C+) -- 20 min, 8 pt, 4 rb, 4 ast, 1 stl, 0 blk, 0 tov, 0 pf
The saga of Buddy Hield, bench master, continues. Following up on his spark plug performance last game, Buddy came out firing and trying to carry on the momentum. To a degree, he was successful. While his shot wasn't as hot as it was against OKC, Hield still was a factor both on the boards and as a facilitator. One positive that's come in Buddy's second season is the continued development of his defensive capabilities. Tonight, he spent his time on a variety of off the ball scorer types and unlike some of his teammates *cough cough* Skal *cough cough*, didn't grossly misplay his man.

De'Aaron Fox (B-) -- 29 min, 11 pt, 4 rb, 7 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 1 tov, 1 pf
So here's the thing: up until the last couple of minutes, it was not a good game for De'Aaron. Be it the missed shots, missed free throws, or the general feeling that he was a car careening down the hill with no one behind the wheel, the rook seemed out of sorts on the night. While he still managed to keep teammates involved and limit the amount of turnovers during his time on the court, Fox also found himself being asked to guard the gigantic Ben Simmons or crafty JJ Reddick for most of the night, both of whom are tough matchups for a 19-year-old who weighs 170 pounds drenched to the bone. But then in crunch time, things started to click, De'Aaron (and the team behind him) started to really ratchet up the defensive intensity, and those crazy drives to the hoop finally started to have an effect (first on the three point play off the Willie rejection, then with the game winner off the dribble thanks to Covington trying to prevent the drive). De'Aaron's defense on Reddick on the Sixers' final possession also was a thing of beauty, but at the end of the day, a great three minutes can only raise a bad grade so much.

Justin Jackson (B+) -- 29 min, 19 pt, 1 rb, 2 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 1 tov, 1 pf
J-Jax has arrived. Off the ball, catch-and-shoot, driving shots, stop-and-pops, all of the former Tar Heel's offensive arsenal was on display against the Sixers and, unlike any other game this season, his shot was falling. Playing a mix of time at the small forward and power forward slots, Jackson is playing a role not unlike the one I thought Omri would play were he still on the Kings. On defense, Jackson is long enough to defend most modern NBA power forwards and, while sporting a body not unlike Kevin Martin's, plays smart enough to not get devoured by bigger guys in the league. Maybe Vlade knew what he was doing when he moved down to draft the dude this summer.

Skal Labissiere (C-) -- 10 min, 2 pt, 4 rb, 0 ast, 0 stl, 1 blk, 1 tov, 4 pf
I guess someone had to suck tonight and it just so happened to be Skal. As I've been harping on all season, Skal can show an astounding lack of basketball IQ (in this case, I mean not fouling a three point shooter several times in a row) and a physical presence not quite ready for a full NBA game all while also showing intriguing flashes that make you think he could possibly become a star. With all three other big men (and hastily-inserted-at-stretch-4 Justin Jackson) playing fantastic basketball, Skal was largely relegated to bench warming duty and at this point I would not be entirely shocked to see him sent up to Reno for a bit to continue his work on the fundamentals of the game.

Malachi Richardson (B+) -- 7 min, 8 pts, 1 rb, 0 ast, 1 stl, 0 blk, 1 tov, 1 pf
With Vince Carter dealing with kidney stones, Malachi got slotted into the ancient one's token second quarter appearance and was sheer offensive nitroglycerin, absolutely nailing the three shots he took. As Justin Jackson appears to have shaken off the rookie gips and Buddy continues to be a bench beast, seven minutes was all the former Cuse star got but he certainly made the most of them. You kinda have to feel bad for the guy getting shelved due to no fault of his own, but if Malachi can continue to breakout in short bursts like he did tonight, Joerger will have no choice but to get the guy his minutes one way or another.

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View From the Other Side found here: http://kingsfans.com/threads/kings-v-sixers-11-9-17.68310/#post-1345549

I would be curious if anyone has it what are the team assist numbers when Hill and/or Bogs are on the floor. My unsubstantiated gut feel is the ball moves better particularly with Bogs but would love to see the data.
 
#32
Fox has been better than both Mitchell and DSJ so far. Give the guy some credit. He's going to be a very good distributor in the future. His passing is already better than I was expecting.

Debatable whether Fox is better than either. Numbers don't show that. Mitchell was a very late round pick and puts up comparable stats to Fox. Fox was picked where? Smith is also comparable across the board.
 
#35
Once again, good job on the grades. I would probably have given Jackson an A and unfortunately, Skal, no higher than a D. I have been preaching long term patience with this team rather than worrying about wins in the short term. But, I'll have to say their rapid turn around in improved play the last 2 games has certainly pleasantly surprised me after the crappy, but not unexpected, play in the previous games. The win was entertaining and certainly enjoyable.

Everybody, including myself, is on a high right now, but don't be surprised when the crappy play returns. It's part of the "process" and growth. Young inexperienced players will be wildly inconsistent, whether rookies or inexperienced 2nd and 3rd year players. Message boards are so bipolar. After a series of losses they are down on certain players (if not the whole team), questioning their character and want to give up and quit on them. After a couple of wins, they start talking playoffs and even finals.

I suggest, that for sanity's sake, everyone keep a balanced and long term view of this team, because I suspect that for the foreseeable future, the crappy games will heavily outweigh the good games and wins. I would love to be proven wrong, and Joerger prove to be some kind of Zen Master genius who is able to get this team to make the massive jump to respectability in just a few weeks, but I don't expect it. Just look for growth and improvement as the season progresses. Hopefully, the ratio of crappy games to good games will get better as the season progresses.
 
#38
Hate to say it, Fox is not even in the conversation of the Best Rooks:

Homework and Hard Stats tell me these guys are way above the curve.

Kyle Kuzma Lakers
Donovan Mitchell: Jazz
Lauri Markkanen: Knicks
Jayson Tatum: Celtics
Ben Simmons: Sixers
Dennis Smith Jr: Mavs


Save for a couple games, Fox has shot poorly, is a mediocre distributor, and a decent defender.
Mediocre distributors don' lead their team in assists as a 19 year old coming off the bench.

I'll add to that. He is also shooting a higher percentage than George Hill who is known as a good shooter. And he is only 19 and comes in as a "poor" shooter and is getting used to NBA defenses.

Lonzo Ball is a poor shooter. For reference. Bradley Beal in his rookie season is a great reference for a great shooter who came in the league and struggled adjusting.

http://m.espn.com/nba/playerseasonstats?season=2013&playerId=6580&teamId=27
 
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#39
Hate to say it, Fox is not even in the conversation of the Best Rooks:

Homework and Hard Stats tell me these guys are way above the curve.

Kyle Kuzma Lakers
Donovan Mitchell: Jazz
Lauri Markkanen: Knicks
Jayson Tatum: Celtics
Ben Simmons: Sixers
Dennis Smith Jr: Mavs


Save for a couple games, Fox has shot poorly, is a mediocre distributor, and a decent defender.
Um, yeah. I’ll actually post the stats for you. There is really only 1 guy on that list that is “above the curve” and he was a consensus #1 pick who redshirted his first year. These are Per 36min stats to normalize playing time

Kuzma - 17.7pts 1.6 ast 7.8reb 52% fg
Mitchell- 18.5pts 3.2ast 3.4reb 34%fg
Markkanen- 17.4pts 1.4ast 9.1reb 43%fg
Tatum- 16.3pts 2.2ast 7.3reb 50%fg
Simmons- 18.6pts 8.1ast 9.8reb 50%fg
Smith Jr- 18.1pts 6.2ast 4.6reb 40%fg

Fox- 16.4pts 7.3ast 4.7reb 40%fg

Homework and stats actually show Fox pretty comparable to all those guys minus Simmons. I’d like to see a more efficient FG% but I believe that will come. There are a lot of good rookies in this years draft class, im pretty confident saying in 5 years Fox will be among the best of them, maybe not THE best but among the best of them.
 
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#40
Interesting stat

Only 13 rotation players cracked the 19 barrier last season: Kawhi Leonard, Stephen Curry, Russell Westbrook, Isaiah Thomas, Anthony Davis, DeMarcus Cousins, Damian Lillard, DeMar DeRozan, Kyrie Irving, Kemba Walker, Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade (do you, Dwyane!) and Zach Randolph (guh).

I find it interesting both Bogdan, Buddy and JJ have played better with the second team. I think all three play better with a passing and cutting type of game that doesn’t happen when ZBo is on the floor but emerges when he is off.
 
#42
Skal and Buddy will come around and be more consistent but our two rookies Jackson and Fox - thats a straight up hell yeah. Add Z-bo and that summer we had is legit.

Jackson to play SF all season and make that position his. Growing pains etc is fine. He is our long term SF. Take the keys and run son
 
#43
Um, yeah. I’ll actually post the stats for you. There is really only 1 guy on that list that is “above the curve” and he was a consensus #1 pick who redshirted his first year. These are Per 36min stats to normalize playing time

Kuzma - 17.7pts 1.6 ast 7.8reb 52% fg
Mitchell- 18.5pts 3.2ast 3.4reb 34%fg
Markkanen- 17.4pts 1.4ast 9.1reb 43%fg
Tatum- 16.3pts 2.2ast 7.3reb 50%fg
Simmons- 18.6pts 8.1ast 9.8reb 50%fg
Smith Jr- 18.1pts 6.2ast 4.6reb 40%fg

Fox- 16.4pts 7.3ast 4.7reb 40%fg

Homework and stats actually show Fox pretty comparable to all those guys minus Simmons. I’d like to see a more efficient FG% but I believe that will come. There are a lot of good rookies in this years draft class, im pretty confident saying in 5 years Fox will be among the best of them, maybe not THE best but among the best of them.


Per 36 will not win you anything. In addition, Fox was drafted higher than all but, Simmons. I am going by raw/real time numbers. I am not saying Fox won't be good. I am just saying he will not win ROY. If we rely on advanced stats Per 36 as a metric, it's flawed and speculative.
 
#44
Recap of ESPN's Sixers/Kings highlights:

"OMG IT'S THE YOUNG AND TALENTED SIXERS TAKING ON THE STRUGGLING KINGS!! SIMMONS...HOLY COW! EMBIID WITH THE DOMINATION! SARIC, CAN YOU BELIEVE IT??? EMIID AGAIN! SIMMONS AGAIN! EXPLOSIVE, YOUNG, TALENTED TEAM!!! Aaron Fox with the game winning shot. CAN YOU BELIEVE HOW TALENTED THESE SIXERS ARE? WATCH OUT EAST WHEN THEY PUT IT ALL TOGETHER!!!"
 
#45
Hate to say it, Fox is not even in the conversation of the Best Rooks:

Homework and Hard Stats tell me these guys are way above the curve.

Kyle Kuzma Lakers
Donovan Mitchell: Jazz
Lauri Markkanen: Knicks
Jayson Tatum: Celtics
Ben Simmons: Sixers
Dennis Smith Jr: Mavs


Save for a couple games, Fox has shot poorly, is a mediocre distributor, and a decent defender.
How many games have they played?

As far as Ben Simmons and just judging from last night he looks like a taller Harden. Which is pretty good but let's see how it plays in the second season.
 
#47
Recap of ESPN's Sixers/Kings highlights:

"OMG IT'S THE YOUNG AND TALENTED SIXERS TAKING ON THE STRUGGLING KINGS!! SIMMONS...HOLY COW! EMBIID WITH THE DOMINATION! SARIC, CAN YOU BELIEVE IT??? EMIID AGAIN! SIMMONS AGAIN! EXPLOSIVE, YOUNG, TALENTED TEAM!!! Aaron Fox with the game winning shot. CAN YOU BELIEVE HOW TALENTED THESE SIXERS ARE? WATCH OUT EAST WHEN THEY PUT IT ALL TOGETHER!!!"
Ya I was watching the TNT recap and was like you would have thought the 76ers won.
 
#48
Per 36 will not win you anything. In addition, Fox was drafted higher than all but, Simmons. I am going by raw/real time numbers. I am not saying Fox won't be good. I am just saying he will not win ROY. If we rely on advanced stats Per 36 as a metric, it's flawed and speculative.
You do know the ROY trophy has been shipped to Philadelphia already right
 
#49
Grades: the team played a good game, even improved over the previous game. It was an exciting game from start to finish. Our guys played well, made mistakes but the good play won it for us. Good balance between offense and defense. Really enjoyed it. The drip-drip improvement continues. We couldn’t have won without Hill, Temple, Koufos and Zbo.
 
#50
Um, yeah. I’ll actually post the stats for you. There is really only 1 guy on that list that is “above the curve” and he was a consensus #1 pick who redshirted his first year. These are Per 36min stats to normalize playing time

Kuzma - 17.7pts 1.6 ast 7.8reb 52% fg
Mitchell- 18.5pts 3.2ast 3.4reb 34%fg
Markkanen- 17.4pts 1.4ast 9.1reb 43%fg
Tatum- 16.3pts 2.2ast 7.3reb 50%fg
Simmons- 18.6pts 8.1ast 9.8reb 50%fg
Smith Jr- 18.1pts 6.2ast 4.6reb 40%fg

Fox- 16.4pts 7.3ast 4.7reb 40%fg

Homework and stats actually show Fox pretty comparable to all those guys minus Simmons. I’d like to see a more efficient FG% but I believe that will come. There are a lot of good rookies in this years draft class, im pretty confident saying in 5 years Fox will be among the best of them, maybe not THE best but among the best of them.
Why let facts get in the way?
 
#51
Best plus minus Koufos +2, Hield +4, Fox +5, Jackson +5. Richardson was +7 but did not play very long. Coincidence? I think not. That being said... What I love about this team (at home) is the fight, will to win and team Basketball they play. Last night was so much fun to watch.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#52
No one wants to hear this.. But, Randolph is the main reason the Kings won the last 2 games. He has looked like Memphis Zack the past 2 games.

Sure JJ has played well, Koufas had a strong night rebounding, Foz hit a game winner. But, without Randolph post bully act and his points in the paint this team would have not won either game.
How about, we won as a team. A lot of players contributed. If Willie doesn't block that shot at the end, we probably don't win. If Fox misses that jumper, we don't win. That's not to diminish what Zach did. But all those things wee equally important. Spread the wealth is my motto. This is about team play, and team play won the game.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#53
WCS - Very nice. Please continue.
Koufas - You're my sentimental favorite on this team; tough as nails and underrated. We talk about role models on this team, but we forget about Koufas. He's the silent man.
Jackson - The Thunder game was the breakout game. This guy is smart and good. We haven't begun to see what he can do on the floor.
Fox - Clutch
Joerger - I absolutely loved that you gave Fox the ball at the end of the game, even though he had shot poorly the entire night. Great coaching. That move will pay big dividends down the line. This team played with joy, unselfishness, and effort.

Fantastic win!
I just hate it when I have to agree with you! Spot on!:rolleyes:
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#54
Hate to say it, Fox is not even in the conversation of the Best Rooks:

Homework and Hard Stats tell me these guys are way above the curve.

Kyle Kuzma Lakers
Donovan Mitchell: Jazz
Lauri Markkanen: Knicks
Jayson Tatum: Celtics
Ben Simmons: Sixers
Dennis Smith Jr: Mavs


Save for a couple games, Fox has shot poorly, is a mediocre distributor, and a decent defender.
Why don't you go troll somewhere else. By the way, you just went on my ignore list.
 
#55
Why don't you go troll somewhere else. By the way, you just went on my ignore list.
yeah I don't really understand the guidelines for the board. this guy seems like a pure antagonist - do not understand the purpose to hang on a board when you pretty much bash everything, always, no matter what...
 
#56
yeah I don't really understand the guidelines for the board. this guy seems like a pure antagonist - do not understand the purpose to hang on a board when you pretty much bash everything, always, no matter what...


I assume you have read every single one of my posts. If so, I am glad we agree to disagree. I was on Kings Forum for over 10 years. I also have been posting on Sactown Royalty for the same amount of time. They don't seem to have issue with any of my posts. Negative or Positive.
 
#58
yeah I don't really understand the guidelines for the board. this guy seems like a pure antagonist - do not understand the purpose to hang on a board when you pretty much bash everything, always, no matter what...
Guideline are to speak your mind. Without insulting other members or using foul language. I have a right to give my opinion, If you don't like it, that's ok. I don't post here to have a popular consensus vote. I am way too old and my time is way too precious to troll.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#59
I assume you have read every single one of my posts. If so, I am glad we agree to disagree. I was on Kings Forum for over 10 years. I also have been posting on Sactown Royalty for the same amount of time. They don't see to have issue with any of my posts. Negative or Positive.
What happens on StR or any other Kings board bears no resemblance to what may or may not happen here.

I've read every single one of your posts. Overall, while I do not think you've crossed over the Troll city limits, you do tend to be more negative than positive about the Kings.

BTW? I'm still waiting for you to rescind your comment in response to my initial post in the game thread for the Sixers game. Looks like you were wrong. :p
 
#60
I pretty much agree with the grades for individuals. Koufus made a huge difference last night. He plays up to his potential a lot of the time and is a very hard-nosed player. I loved Jackson's game. Willie is playing much better but still rebounds like he is wearing a tuxedo. Randolph still plays the game like he is on the playground. I love watching him play. Bogdon seems to get out quicked by some really athletic players but he makes good decisions.

The Kings confidence switch got flipped after the first quarter against OKC. I hope they will never be the same. They are hitting shots, playing pretty good defense, and getting up and down. Rebounding can still be weak at times. They were outrebounded by a lot last night but made up for it with few turnovers. This is something new for the Kings, good ball handling. Plenty of assists. Their foul shot percentage is crummy. Rebounds need to go up, otherwise Koufus is going to start.

The Kings are almost doing the Carolina blue team platoon system. They use a lot of players and keep fresh horses. I hope there is some room for Frank Mason. Most of the Kings players are getting 20 something minutes. That is a good long term strategy to get everyone involved in a grind it out 80 game season especially with some older guys. There is little difference in talent with the Kings starters and bench players. The bench can score 50 points because there is a drop off in talent on the other teams.

Going forward, the new system is starting to work. I think Willie and Skal have a lot to do with how many games the Kings are going to win. Hill needs to start to play offense. Having Hield come of the bench works for him. When he comes in with Fox it is easy to get excited about this team. It is the starting guards that are not so exciting. This is a great week to be a Kings fan.