[Grades] Grades v. Rockets 12/15/2015

[kingsboi]

Losing fat doesn't mean losing strength. Jason Thompson played bullyball or he tried and he tripped over his feet traveled or got called for a charge. What makes Boogie special is not just bullyball. It is his skill set for a man his size, particularly an ability face up and take guys off the bounce. Guys his size don't feel comfortable 12 to 18 feet from the basket with a live dribble. He does.

You actually can negate his advantage out of the low block because it is easier to defend him with his back to the basket than when he is facing it. His reads are suspect. He doesn't get lift around the hoop. He doesn't have a turnaround jumper. He doesn't have a half-hook. There is no polished low post game and no go-to move.

I agree with you his physicality make him special. He can punish opponents and he wants to. The issue is how best to accomplish that. You have to move him around the court and get him the ball at the free throw line facing the hoop (as Karl has smartly done) as often as low block because he is more offensively capable facing the basket than with his back to the basket.

And losing 10 pounds of fat wouldn't hurt.

You hit the nail on the head here. After all these years, you would think he would have some form of a hook shot since he is so ground bound and struggles to finish around traffic with consistency. It baffles me he doesn't have a go to move in his arsenal at this point in his career. Will he always strictly rely on bully ball? I think so.

 

[Blob]

You hit the nail on the head here. After all these years, you would think he would have some form of a hook shot since he is so ground bound and struggles to finish around traffic with consistency. It baffles me he doesn't have a go to move in his arsenal at this point in his career. Will he always strictly rely on bully ball? I think so.

As fans we all know Boogie has all the talent in the world. But lets not pretend as the esteemed Bricklayer seems to that he is Hakeem or Ewing off the block. He's awesome one-on-one against smaller defenders. He's awesome when he can turn and face against any defender one-on-one. But against multiple defenders his post moves are below average to average at best and bullying moves just amount to running up against a wall that results in him being flattened and pleading for a foul call that will never come. Better strategy is give the man space to operate 12 to 18 feet from the hoop where he can showcase his skills worthy of future of HoF'er.

 

[206Fan]

You hit the nail on the head here. After all these years, you would think he would have some form of a hook shot since he is so ground bound and struggles to finish around traffic with consistency. It baffles me he doesn't have a go to move in his arsenal at this point in his career. Will he always strictly rely on bully ball? I think so.

I actually said this in the other thread. Cuz had a hook shot his first few years, then in his 3rd year, he completely abandoned it.

Cuz came into the league as an above average post player with a lot of potential to improve there. However, as his rookie year went by, he's started to change his playstyle. He's using his quickness and strength to beat his defenders. I saw a lot of this after his 2nd year.

Right now, I'd say Cuz has probably 1 post move..

I don't see how in any way, shape, or form could this ever be blamed on Karl's type of play style. Cuz started moving away from the basket by himself.

 

[206Fan]

He's devastating around the rim.

You know why? He draws fouls. He's actually one of the most aggressive around the rim players in the history of the NBA. I'm old enough to have seen a good swath of the great centers. Cousins is a far nastier rim attacker than Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing, and players of that ilk who featured post moves, hooks, and jumpers. He's more akin to an extremely mobile Moses Malone, who went rumbling right to that rim almost intending to get blocked or altered, and then he would clean up and clean up and clean up until eh got fouled or it fell.

The fouls are the things boys and girls. Cousins gets blocked because he doesn't resort to post moves or fallaway jumpers. He wants to get right to the rim, all the time. That's very rare. VERY rare. And it means you are going to get blocked. It also means you better have bulk and wide shoulders to bounce people and absorb a pounding, and it means that you are going to damn near lead the league in fouls drawn year in and year out.

Cousins is not anywhere close to those guys you named in terms of post play.

His post game has deteriorated each year after his 2nd.

His offensive game in the post relies on being bigger, stronger, and quicker than everyone else. He's a poor man's Shaq in terms of post play. This is not an insult to Cuz..Shaq is one of the best big man in the history of the NBA and he was unstoppable. It's very for any player to match up to Shaq.

 

[King Baller]

I swear to the Great God Naismith, if Superman (not the George Reeves version) showed up tomorrow and signed with the Kings, some people would complain about him.

I don't know about anybody else, but I'm not gonna act like I know what's best for DMC. There are highly paid professionals around him who are charged with that responsibility. I"m just going to thank Naismith - once again - that some pretty smart GMs made a pretty stupid mistake and passed on him so that he fell to the Kings.

I am thankful for one more thing - at least we're having this argument. DMC could have bailed a long time ago but, for whatever reason, he likes us - he really likes us.

#LoyaltyIsLove

#GoKings

Amen

 

[Im Still Ballin]

Losing fat doesn't mean losing strength. Jason Thompson played bullyball or he tried and he tripped over his feet traveled or got called for a charge. What makes Boogie special is not just bullyball. It is his skill set for a man his size, particularly an ability face up and take guys off the bounce. Guys his size don't feel comfortable 12 to 18 feet from the basket with a live dribble. He does.

You actually can negate his advantage out of the low block because it is easier to defend him with his back to the basket than when he is facing it. His reads are suspect. He doesn't get lift around the hoop. He doesn't have a turnaround jumper. He doesn't have a half-hook. There is no polished low post game and no go-to move.

I agree with you his physicality make him special. He can punish opponents and he wants to. The issue is how best to accomplish that. You have to move him around the court and get him the ball at the free throw line facing the hoop (as Karl has smartly done) as often as low block because he is more offensively capable facing the basket than with his back to the basket.

And losing 10 pounds of fat wouldn't hurt.

This is all I'm really saying

The attributes that make him stand out isn't his strength, it's his athleticism (in the form of quickness) combined with his length, and the skillset of a guard. 5-10 pounds of pure fat would help him move a little faster which would pay dividends on both ends of the court and his overall game

 

[Bricklayer]

This is all I'm really saying

The attributes that make him stand out isn't his strength, it's his athleticism (in the form of quickness) combined with his length, and the skillset of a guard. 5-10 pounds of pure fat would help him move a little faster which would pay dividends on both ends of the court and his overall game

His strength is a huge part of it. HUGE.

It is for any big man, but for Boogie? I don't think you have analyzed what you are watching there. Watch how he boards, watch how he drives, watch how he posts. Watch how he clears space. He uses his shoulders, his heft, to clear room, establish and hold position, finish through contact etc. And even now there are times when he could use more, not less strength.

His quickness and ballhandling is the spice that makes him unique, but its not the bread and butter.

And BTW Cousins is in fine shape. People just have never watched a big guy play before apparently. Physically battling out there is hard work on a big body. He leads the entire league in usage%, which means we use him and rely on him more than any team in the league does their big guy. He's down 20+ lbs from where he was when he came in, there's no particular gut. Since he refuses to work out hard he'll never be ripped, but there's nothing about his body or game that suggests out of shape. Go back and watch an old tape of Patrick Ewing sweating the Delaware onto the court.

 

[The_Jamal]

His strength is a huge part of it. HUGE.

It is for any big man, but for Boogie? I don't think you have analyzed what you are watching there. Watch how he boards, watch how he drives, watch how he posts. Watch how he clears space. He uses his shoulders, his heft, to clear room, establish and hold position, finish through contact etc. And even now there are times when he could use more, not less strength.

His quickness and ballhandling is the spice that makes him unique, but its not the bread and butter.

And BTW Cousins is in fine shape. People just have never watched a big guy play before apparently. Physically battling out there is hard work on a big body. He leads the entire league in usage%, which means we use him and rely on him more than any team in the league does their big guy. He's down 20+ lbs from where he was when he came in, there's no particular gut. Since he refuses to work out hard he'll never be ripped, but there's nothing about his body or game that suggests out of shape. Go back and watch an old tape of Patrick Ewing sweating the Delaware onto the court.

Which is a big issue and one we need to address at some point. It's why we suck so hard when he's out; there's no one to take on the 35% USG role. Thunder can operate fine because Westy is comfortable taking an ungodly amount of USG. Warriors are so team oriented anyway, but Draymond and Klay could fill in Steph's USG. Love/Kyrie (when he gets back) could fill in for Bron. Us? We're giving more shots to Rudy Gay and Rondo (which isn't a good thing).

 

[Im Still Ballin]

His strength is a huge part of it. HUGE.

It is for any big man, but for Boogie? I don't think you have analyzed what you are watching there. Watch how he boards, watch how he drives, watch how he posts. Watch how he clears space. He uses his shoulders, his heft, to clear room, establish and hold position, finish through contact etc. And even now there are times when he could use more, not less strength.

His quickness and ballhandling is the spice that makes him unique, but its not the bread and butter.

And BTW Cousins is in fine shape. People just have never watched a big guy play before apparently. Physically battling out there is hard work on a big body. He leads the entire league in usage%, which means we use him and rely on him more than any team in the league does their big guy. He's down 20+ lbs from where he was when he came in, there's no particular gut. Since he refuses to work out hard he'll never be ripped, but there's nothing about his body or game that suggests out of shape. Go back and watch an old tape of Patrick Ewing sweating the Delaware onto the court.

What separates Kendrick Perkins from Demarcus Cousins?

Quickness
Length
Skillset

What separates Demarcus Cousins from Asik?

Quickness
Length
Skillset

"Nothing about his body or game that suggests out of shape"... Well I don't know maybe continually walking up the court? He's unfit at the moment, whether it's part injuries, it doesn't matter. He'll benefit from losing 5-10 pounds of fat.

Let's not be idiotic. It's not his herculean strength that makes him so great. It's his ability to translate his size and strength in a horizontal athletic component. Force = Mass x Acceleration. If you've ever been a high level athlete, you'll know what losing 5-10 pounds of fat will do to your ability to move around the court. He'll be moving faster/quicker which will counter the 5-10 pounds of mass lost... He's still going to have that same bulldozing effect.. Expect he'll have more energy on both ends of the court. If you can't understand this I'm not sure what to tell you. Let's stop pretending that Demarcus is Shaq. He's not. DMC has lead the league in shots blocked pretty much every season.

 

[Im Still Ballin]

And the thing is Demarcus has been 5-10 pounds leaner

This isn't like I am suggesting something crazy. This was the condition he brought in 2013-2014

Look at these photos

http://espn.go.com/nba/photos?gameId=400489710&photoId=3627989
http://espn.go.com/nba/photos?gameId=400489710&photoId=3627988
http://espn.go.com/nba/photos?gameId=400489710&photoId=3627986 - That's in 2013-2014, He looks leaner

Compare that to this season

http://espn.go.com/nba/photos?gameId=400828256&photoId=5211472
http://espn.go.com/nba/photos?gameId=400828256&photoId=5211498
http://espn.go.com/nba/photos?gameId=400828256&photoId=5211673
http://espn.go.com/nba/photos?gameId=400828256&photoId=5211687

Specifically compare these two
http://espn.go.com/nba/photos?gameId=400489710&photoId=3628340
http://espn.go.com/nba/photos?gameId=400828256&photoId=5211472

//
He needs to lost 5-10 pounds of fat

 

[Im Still Ballin]

You can clearly notice how much better he was moving in 2013-2014

 

[Im Still Ballin]

I mean am I the only one that sees this?

Just look at highlights from one of his games in the 2013-2014 season

As athletic and moving the best he ever has

Doing some quite frankly athletic plays we rarely have seen him do recently

 

[gil renard]

Hey you know who has a great looking body? Dwight Howard.

I'll take 26 and 12 over 4 points, 4 rebounds, and having nice muscles.

Not saying DMC doesn't need to improve in areas, but having a ripped looking body isn't the be all end all.

 

[Im Still Ballin]

Hey you know who has a great looking body? Dwight Howard.

I'll take 26 and 12 over 4 points, 4 rebounds, and having nice muscles.

Not saying DMC doesn't need to improve in areas, but having a ripped looking body isn't the be all end all.

That's kind of missing the point

You're essentially saying he's this great. I'm telling you he can be even better. Combine his 2013-2014 conditioning with his current skillset = best version of cousins yet

 

[KingsFanGER]

I'm confused.

1. As far as I was able to understand it, Bricklayer said, that Cousins is better in attacking the rim than Ewing or Hakeem. He never said Cousins has a better post game. And while I disagree with his analysis of basketball games most of the time, I believe he has a valid point there. Cousins always heads towards the rim. Ewing and Hakeem had go to moves or a better arsenal of post moves in general (at least Hakeem), but never showed this bulldog like aggression Cousins displays. Most of the time these guys were fading away from the basket or tried to outfake or shoot over their defenders.
What remains to be seen is, if Cousins playstyle will result in success in the playoffs with the way ref's are calling games today.

2. Losing 5-10 pounds of body fat sounds probable. But this thread reads like Cousins and his shape is a major problem for the Kings. So far we have a decent record, when Cousins is able to play and he hasn't been truly healthy most of the season.
So is it possible, that losing a bit of bodyfat would benefit Cousins? Maybe. I'm not that convinced, that it would help, but I won't paint myself as someone, who knows what's best for a professional athlete.
But is Cousins shape the reason, why the Kings record leaves a lot to be desired? I certainly don't think so. Cousins is the #1 reason, why the Kings are winning games.
This doesn't mean he can't improve in some areas.

#1 reasons why the Kings lost so many games, was the perimeter defense. We picked up the effort in this area. And while we are far from perfect as a defensive unit, we managed to win 3 in a row.
I will enjoy this as long as it lasts.

 

[kingsboi]

Hey you know who has a great looking body? Dwight Howard.

I'll take 26 and 12 over 4 points, 4 rebounds, and having nice muscles.

Not saying DMC doesn't need to improve in areas, but having a ripped looking body isn't the be all end all.

People aren't asking for him to turn into Dwight Howard. Dwight Howard is a workout freak, Cousins is the opposite. What fans want to see in general is him improving his stamina and conditioning. That's in no way saying he hasn't...he's come a long way since he's entered the league. I mean he has lost 20 pounds or so which is great....now he needs to kind of tone his muscles a bit IMO. But...quite frankly I'd be content with him just staying durable for the foreseeable future and no more injuries.

 

[Chubbs]

His strength is a huge part of it. HUGE.

It is for any big man, but for Boogie? I don't think you have analyzed what you are watching there. Watch how he boards, watch how he drives, watch how he posts. Watch how he clears space. He uses his shoulders, his heft, to clear room, establish and hold position, finish through contact etc. And even now there are times when he could use more, not less strength.

His quickness and ballhandling is the spice that makes him unique, but its not the bread and butter.

And BTW Cousins is in fine shape. People just have never watched a big guy play before apparently. Physically battling out there is hard work on a big body. He leads the entire league in usage%, which means we use him and rely on him more than any team in the league does their big guy. He's down 20+ lbs from where he was when he came in, there's no particular gut. Since he refuses to work out hard he'll never be ripped, but there's nothing about his body or game that suggests out of shape. Go back and watch an old tape of Patrick Ewing sweating the Delaware onto the court.

Every time this comes up this scene plays in my mind. People have been bitching about big men not working hard since the NBA began.

Demarcus is hurt right now. There's no doubt about it. Give him a break. He's still carrying this team.

Moses is the best comparison. A similar limited finesse power game.

I also believe Demarcus as the trailer is by design, not laziness. There's that too, occasional laziness But it catches the defense off guard. He either gets an open 3 or an open lane.

 

[Bricklayer]

People aren't asking for him to turn into Dwight Howard. Dwight Howard is a workout freak, Cousins is the opposite. What fans want to see in general is him improving his stamina and conditioning. That's in no way saying he hasn't...he's come a long way since he's entered the league. I mean he has lost 20 pounds or so which is great....now he needs to kind of tone his muscles a bit IMO. But...quite frankly I'd be content with him just staying durable for the foreseeable future and no more injuries.

Injuries often do not have that much to do with working out. See Chris Webber and Vlade Divac for prime examples.

 

[kingsboi]

Injuries often do not have that much to do with working out. See Chris Webber and Vlade Divac for prime examples.

That may be the case. Working out however gives you less of a probability of injury at least in my opinion. You strengthen your muscles and bones to take more physical contact which is what Boogie does all the time. I'm not strictly saying Weight training is the primary source of exercise to do to prevent injury because you need a good mixture of training techniques such as stability, balance, fix muscular imbalances & then add muscular training in there as well.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Wait, there are people who don't see a distinction between acknowledging a fact and complaining about it?

You tell me. Are you suggesting that those two things are not mutually exclusive? That "acknowledging a fact" and "whining" can't occur simultaneously? Are you saying that that never happens?

For the record, I didn't accuse anybody of whining. But, when Person A accuses a group of people of whining, and Person B says it's not whining if it's true, I'd like to know how they figure that. The truth of a proposition doesn't really have anything to do with whether any whining is happening, and vice versa.

 

[CruzDude]

Did you get kidnapped during your last trip to the Villa d' Baja?

Not exactly. Every year we come down to Zihuatanejo for R, T & R and the only TV here is Sky in Spanish. Two bars on the beach do carry NFL games but thats about it. Actually baja asks if I will hijack him down here but its too quiet and peaceful for him.

P.s. The T is for Tequila, a wonderful therapy needed from watching Kings games.

 

[KingMilz]

You hit the nail on the head here. After all these years, you would think he would have some form of a hook shot since he is so ground bound and struggles to finish around traffic with consistency. It baffles me he doesn't have a go to move in his arsenal at this point in his career. Will he always strictly rely on bully ball? I think so.

I have been saying for 4 years if Cousins ever got a half hook he would be as devastating force as there is in the nba, I also feel the one area he's truly elite in and that being rebounding he does not do enough of on the offensive end.

 

[kingsboi]

I have been saying for 4 years if Cousins ever got a half hook he would be as devastating force as there is in the nba, I also feel the one area he's truly elite in and that being rebounding he does not do enough of on the offensive end.

That might be because he exerts a lot of his energy on the offensive side of the ball or boxing his guy out so one of his team mates can get the rebound instead.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

You tell me. Are you suggesting that those two things are not mutually exclusive?

Quite the opposite, I'm suggesting that they're not identical.

That "acknowledging a fact" and "whining" can't occur simultaneously? Are you saying that that never happens?

They can and at times certainly do occur simultaneously. But that doesn't mean that happened in this case.

For the record, I didn't accuse anybody of whining. But, when Person A accuses a group of people of whining, and Person B says it's not whining if it's true, I'd like to know how they figure that. The truth of a proposition doesn't really have anything to do with whether any whining is happening, and vice versa.

The quote in question was:

I don't whine that he s the last man down the court, he is th last man down the court.

Nowhere here does pshn80 say that it's not whining if its true. I can see how you might infer an implied if-then relationship, but I think the better way to interpret this passage is as "I wasn't whining, just pointing something out" which doesn't require reading something in that wasn't specifically stated.

 

[bajaden]

I actually said this in the other thread. Cuz had a hook shot his first few years, then in his 3rd year, he completely abandoned it.

Cuz came into the league as an above average post player with a lot of potential to improve there. However, as his rookie year went by, he's started to change his playstyle. He's using his quickness and strength to beat his defenders. I saw a lot of this after his 2nd year.

Right now, I'd say Cuz has probably 1 post move..

I don't see how in any way, shape, or form could this ever be blamed on Karl's type of play style. Cuz started moving away from the basket by himself.

When Cuz came into the league, he was purely a bully ball player. His approach was to bull his way into position and then throw up a shot. If it went in, great, but if not, grab the rebound and put it back in. It was something he learned at Kentucky where Calipari's plan was for Cuz to plant himself at the basket, and then have his guards penetrate and throw up a shot. Cousins fed off of missed baskets. That particular plan doesn't work as well when you get doubled or tripled by equally big men, unless you get fouled. In some of the games where Cuz doesn't look as good, it's because the ref's aren't calling the game as tight, and he's not getting to the line as often.

What I don't understand, is that Cuz started to show us some dropsteps and ballfakes around the basket a couple of years ago. I thought great, he's starting to evolve into a better post player. And then he stopped for some reason. Don't know why. Maybe, as he started to fall in love with his jumpshot a little more, he just abandoned his post work. I know many here like him with his back to the basket, but I personally like him in the high post where he can still post up, or he can put the ball on the floor, or he can pass the ball. It's much harder to crowd him out in the high post, and if you do double there, it's much easier for him to spot the open man. Let me be clear. By high post, I mean either the left or right wing just outside the free throw circle. It's where Webber used to set up. Also Brad Miller operated from that position.

 

[FaStRmAn]

I believe that Cousins is Country strong. With country strong comes country big. He got injured and fell out of conditioning because of his injuries. He will play himself back into shape. What is disconcerting is that Barkley very well could be correct in saying that the fact that Cousins isnt in the best shape possible, that the injuries are a result. That is very possibly the case. Cousins needs to stay in the best shape possible in order to dominate. He is very good even slightly overweight and slow. He is completely unstoppable when he is in shape, has his head in the game, and is backing down defenders and passing out of double teams. I think Cousins should shoot the 3 for show but back his opponents down and pass when the double team comes. That will eventually lead to more open jumpshots or less double teams. Either way it benefits the offense. As for weight, he needs to be at playing weight. Whatever that is for him. Only he knows what his ideal playing weight is. But he needs to be pro enough to stay at that weight.

 

[bajaden]

I believe that Cousins is Country strong. With country strong comes country big. He got injured and fell out of conditioning because of his injuries. He will play himself back into shape. What is disconcerting is that Barkley very well could be correct in saying that the fact that Cousins isnt in the best shape possible, that the injuries are a result. That is very possibly the case. Cousins needs to stay in the best shape possible in order to dominate. He is very good even slightly overweight and slow. He is completely unstoppable when he is in shape, has his head in the game, and is backing down defenders and passing out of double teams. I think Cousins should shoot the 3 for show but back his opponents down and pass when the double team comes. That will eventually lead to more open jumpshots or less double teams. Either way it benefits the offense. As for weight, he needs to be at playing weight. Whatever that is for him. Only he knows what his ideal playing weight is. But he needs to be pro enough to stay at that weight.

I agree! Cousins has what I call a thick body. I doubt his playing weight would ever be below 265. What matters is what that weight is made up of. What his body fat percentage is? Now you can get over muscled to some degree where it hinders movement and reflex action. I knew some baseball players that normally weighed 195 to 200 pounds and they had a good degree of power. They spent their off time getting stronger and go their weight up in th 220 range, and had the worse years of their careers. So your right, it's an individual thing. What fits one doesn't necessarily fit another.

As far as injuries being a result of not being in shape. Well yeah, that can be part of it, but the center position is a tough position. Especially if your a post player. Even more if your a power post player. Your going to take a much larger beating than a guard or any perimeter player on a regular basis. After a few years, your body starts to say screw this. The mind is willing, but the body isn't. How long that takes is once again an individual thing. But there's no doubt, that the better shape you stay in, the less injuries you will have. But it's not a cure all.

 

[pshn80]

I believe that Cousins is Country strong. With country strong comes country big. He got injured and fell out of conditioning because of his injuries. He will play himself back into shape. What is disconcerting is that Barkley very well could be correct in saying that the fact that Cousins isnt in the best shape possible, that the injuries are a result. That is very possibly the case. Cousins needs to stay in the best shape possible in order to dominate. He is very good even slightly overweight and slow. He is completely unstoppable when he is in shape, has his head in the game, and is backing down defenders and passing out of double teams. I think Cousins should shoot the 3 for show but back his opponents down and pass when the double team comes. That will eventually lead to more open jumpshots or less double teams. Either way it benefits the offense. As for weight, he needs to be at playing weight. Whatever that is for him. Only he knows what his ideal playing weight is. But he needs to be pro enough to stay at that weight.

....... and stay n shape.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Quite the opposite, I'm suggesting that they're not identical.

Uh, "not identical" is not the opposite of "not mutually exclusive."

They can and at times certainly do occur simultaneously. But that doesn't mean that happened in this case.

I doesn't mean that it didn't, but I'm inclined to think that it did. I can see how one could think that if looking at the post in isolation, but I feel no reason to do that.

 

[Bricklayer]

I have been saying for 4 years if Cousins ever got a half hook he would be as devastating force as there is in the nba, I also feel the one area he's truly elite in and that being rebounding he does not do enough of on the offensive end.

Sigh...he CAN'T on the rebounding. That's 100% on Karl's system this year, and one of the reasons I really despise it. Watch where Cousins is standing on about half our FG attempts, and if he hasn't taken the shot himself, chances are he's out at the 3pt line. Your best offensive rebounder taken entirely out of the play not by a scheming opponent, but by his own team's scheme.