[Grades] Grades v. Magic 11/3/2016

[bajaden]

Collison is a good player, but it sure does seem to me he's a thin reed on which to base the success or failure of a season. If you play him at the two guard you're going to have a very small back court. Gay is already getting into his injured mode and Barnes is semi retired. Even if absolutely everything breaks in this teams' favor they maybe get to .500 ball and a chance to be in No-Man's-Land for eternity. The premise that all this team needs is a bunch of complementary mediocre vets around Cousins is false, and all the conclusions that followed from it are false. As I've said for two years: BLOW IT UP!

And if they do blow it up, what then? The point is well taken that there's no reason to have 95% confidence in the ability of Vlade & Co. to pick talent in the draft. You can say that he hasn't dis-proven himself as a GM and I'll agree with that. But in order to prove himself as a GM, more time will be required, probably at least a year or two, and the Vlade experiment would then be even higher in stakes because of his central importance in making a Cousins' deal and in making the draft picks garnered from such a deal. It just seems uncertainty piled upon uncertainty.

First, can I get a guarantee from you that I'll live to 90 too? Would mean a lot to me. Ok, about blowing it up. We've sort of been doing that in a half a$$ way for some time now, and as a result, we've wasted 5 or 6 years that should have been meaningful, and wern't. We've changed 7 players this year if I've counted correctly, and did a similar thing last year. We've had a coaching marathon followed closely by a revolving door for our GM's..

One thing I know is, that if you keep changing the coaches, GM's and the players, your never going to win anything. Joerger has it right. You have to build a culture, an identity as a team. The only way to do that is to establish a stable front office, and coaching staff. History tells us, that unless your real lucky, your going to struggle for a while. Its going to take some time, and fans tend to be impatient, especially when the team has already wasted several years trying to put a band aid on a bleeding artery.

My point is, I don't necessarily disagree with you. I might disagree on what a blow up means, but not on the premise. We have the best center in the NBA, and if you can rebuild from scratch, and he's willing to take the journey with us, then I do everything I can to keep him. After that, no one would be safe if the right deal comes along. Now I'm not going to sit here and blow smoke up you know where, and tell you that Vlade is gods gift to the GM position. To be honest, I don't know. Only time will determine that. But for the present, we have to put our faith in him.

OK, now to picking talent. Vlade has the final say, but he gets input from multiple sources. It's not like he's isolated in his office looking at film, reads DraftExpress, and then decides. Sometimes, it 's not so much about the talent, but how the talent fits what your trying to build. That's where I think the Kings have made some mistakes. Simply because I don't think the Kings knew what they were trying to build. It kept changing from year to year. So were back to building a culture.

The question I have is, do the fans have the stomach for going through a rebuild? Everyone wants to win now, right now, and that's not likely to happen. Oh we'll probably be better than last year, but unless your really building a foundation, it doesn't matter. Other than Cousins, the only other player of late that the Kings have stuck with is McLemore, and it looks like maybe, just maybe they'll finally get rewarded. The fans have less patience than management. A young player has some bad games, and he's a bust. They want him gone. You can't run an organization like that.

 

[Bricklayer]

We aren't rebuilding guys, not unless we fail. As in fail completely. This fascination with kids has to end. Kids suck. Their only purpose is to turn into vets. Well, vets we have now. And the vets will rise or fall as a group of vets now. Anything the kids do is just gravy. Be nice to have gravy, but its pointless if its mediocre gravy that you can get a vet to provide anyway.

 

[hrdboild]

We aren't rebuilding guys, not unless we fail. As in fail completely. This fascination with kids has to end. Kids suck. Their only purpose is to turn into vets. Well, vets we have now. And the vets will rise or fall as a group of vets now. Anything the kids do is just gravy. Be nice to have gravy, but its pointless if its mediocre gravy that you can get a vet to provide anyway.

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The only players we have that are worth building a team around were high draft picks. Cousins came to this team as a 19 year old with one year of college behind him. We've had him through 6 seasons of terrible basketball for one reason and one reason only -- we drafted him. There is no chance he comes to Sacramento as a free agent if someone else drafts him, especially when we can't get close to .500 for the entire duration of his NBA career to date. I'm not fascinated with kids so much as I'm fascinated with top 20 players -- the kind of players you need to win anything. There are players from last years draft who could challenge for All-Star spots this year -- some of whom we passed on. I'd take a 21 year old All-Star over a 31 year old journeyman any day of the week.

You've been arguing for years that all we need is DeMarcus Cousins and a good coach and the right role-players. It's just not going to happen. Rudy is going to leave for nothing if we don't trade him. Collison is a free agent too after this season. The biggest free agent we've been able to attract in the last 10 years is Rondo on a 1 year deal and we made no effort to retain him when that expired. The pieces we traded Tyreke for are gone. The pieces we "traded" IT for are gone. If this team has any hope at all of being a playoff team over the next 5 years it's one of those kids you apparently disdain turning into a star and complimenting Cousins (or at least someone good enough to trade for a star that compliments Cousins). Afflalo, Barnes, Temple, Tolliver, Koufos, and Lawson are not leading us anywhere. The Knicks have been trying to win that way for 15 years and it's worked only once for them (worked in this case meaning only that they won 50+ games and made it past the first round of the playoffs). And that's a team that has the advantage of playing in one of the 10 biggest cities in the world!

 

[Bricklayer]

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The only players we have that are worth building a team around were high draft picks. Cousins came to this team as a 19 year old with one year of college behind him. We've had him through 6 seasons of terrible basketball for one reason and one reason only -- we drafted him. There is no chance he comes to Sacramento as a free agent if someone else drafts him, especially when we can't get close to .500 for the entire duration of his NBA career to date. I'm not fascinated with kids so much as I'm fascinated with top 20 players -- the kind of players you need to win anything. There are players from last years draft who could challenge for All-Star spots this year -- some of whom we passed on. I'd take a 21 year old All-Star over a 31 year old journeyman any day of the week.

You've been arguing for years that all we need is DeMarcus Cousins and a good coach and the right role-players. It's just not going to happen. Rudy is going to leave for nothing if we don't trade him. Collison is a free agent too after this season. The biggest free agent we've been able to attract in the last 10 years is Rondo on a 1 year deal and we made no effort to retain him when that expired. The pieces we traded Tyreke for are gone. The pieces we "traded" IT for are gone. If this team has any hope at all of being a playoff team over the next 5 years it's one of those kids you apparently disdain turning into a star and complimenting Cousins. Afflalo, Barnes, Temple, Tolliver, Koufos, and Lawson are not leading us anywhere. The Knicks have been trying to win that way for 15 years and it's worked only once for them (worked in this case meaning only that they won 50+ games and made it past the first round of the playoffs). And that's a team that has the advantage of playing in one of the 10 biggest cities in the world!

You need to chill out and watch what happens this season. The team is already built as a playoff team. Its not built as a contender. But this team, barring the wrong injury to Cuz of course, is a tough minded well coached very solid team that will be in the mix. And a major reason why is because it disdains kids, and has filled the rotation with grown ups.

Meanwhile the ending contracts were an intentional tactic to allow maximum flexibility for this summer. Flexibility to rebuild if Cuz has to be moved. to keep the guys if we do well. or to let them walk and replace them with better suited personnel if they don't.

There are no mysteries here, and no crisis. Everything is steady, it just needs some practice time to fully gel.

We're at a different place in the NBA life cycle now.

 

[gunks]

DC coming back and time for the team to gel will do wonders.

Crappy losses for sure, but I'm expecting us to bounce back and start rolling.

 

[Suicide King]

We arent even TEN games in yet and people are talking about blowing it up? Why even have waited for the season to start if your ready to blow it up 6 games in. Makes no sense to me.

 

[Sac.1989]

We ain't blowing up nothing but box scores. We just need some continuity and a steady 3rd option on offense. DC coming back will be solid and lighten the load somewhat on others. Our play will get better with time. We're built for success and it'll come good soon.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I don't think we should overreact too much. Maybe Skal needs to tap Willie on the shoulder and remind him that he plays the same position, and he can shoot the ball...

I'm pretty close to starting the "Free Skal" chant. Willie has not shown me what I need to see, in any way, this summer or this season.

 

[hrdboild]

You need to chill out and watch what happens this season. The team is already built as a playoff team. Its not built as a contender. But this team, barring the wrong injury to Cuz of course, is a tough minded well coached very solid team that will be in the mix. And a major reason why is because it disdains kids, and has filled the rotation with grown ups.

Meanwhile the ending contracts were an intentional tactic to allow maximum flexibility for this summer. Flexibility to rebuild if Cuz has to be moved. to keep the guys if we do well. or to let them walk and replace them with better suited personnel if they don't.

There are no mysteries here, and no crisis. Everything is steady, it just needs some practice time to fully gel.

We're at a different place in the NBA life cycle now.

How is this different than last season? We brought in a hall of fame coach, All-Star PG, and at least 3 well-regarded savvy veterans. We looked good for about 3 or 4 weeks and then turned into a soul-sucking torrent of misery. I've watched about half of the games so far. While it's a relief to finally see offensive sets that actually make sense and a defensive game plan that's kindof working, we also got outclassed by an Orlando team that 2 days earlier had to fight and scrap to eke out a win over the 76ers. There's a thin line between winning and losing on any given night and more often than not the difference is talent. We simply don't have it. Rudy Gay has been a bright spot so far but how much consolation can I really take in that when he's so clearly just auditioning for his next team? Speaking of which, how many of the players on this roster can we reasonably expect to come back next season? I see no more than 6 and that includes the kids. You call that flexibility to rebuild if Cousins leaves. I see it more as trading away our future draft pick (unprotected...) and then doing everything we can to shoo him out the door.

The lie here is that we're going to "replace them with better suited personnel if they don't (do well)". How are we going to convince coveted free agents to choose a losing team in Sacramento over every other team in the league? This is the ongoing problem which is not going to magically disappear. What we could do instead is trade the pieces we have that other teams might want (Gay, Collison, McLemore, Cauley-Stein) for kids (on multi-year contracts followed by restricted free agency) that those other teams undervalue because (unlike us) they're actually competing for something. Obviously that plan only works if you find the right kids but no Kings basketball team in Sacramento has ever been successful without finding the right kids to draft/sign/trade-for and shepherding them along into savvy veteran hood. If you really believe Dave Joerger is the right coach for the job like Rick Adelman before him (I'm still undecided, but I'm optimistic) than you have to trust him to work with the kids.

Speaking of Memphis, let's look at how they built that team: Marc Gasol (kid), Mike Conley (kid), Zach Randolph (pariah/reclamation project), Rudy Gay (kid), Tony Allen (savvy veteran). Sure that's a veteran team now but that's because they kept their kids and developed them.

 

[Fora Dragi]

Fact is that WE aka our GM passed on several solid draft picks over the past two years who would have made a significant impact on this team. WCS ok i guess I can see taking him over Mudiay, Booker, etc. but this year's draft decisions were absolutely ridiculous. Fact we traded away our first round draft pick to the 76ers so we could sign Kosta Koufos, and two guys not even here anymore. Fact we cannot lure any impact free agents here. Fact we continue to blame everyone except the person making the personnel decisions. The problem with this team isn't about defense, offense, learning an offense etc. it is about not having the talent it takes to win in the NBA. We have a great coach in place, we have an Owner willing to spend money, now we just need a GM who can go out and sell this vision and knows how to evaluate talent.

I think you are over valuing the talent at that spot in a draft. It's a crap shoot. But I agree Papa was out of nowhere and a huge reach. And Vlade has to deal with the ownership mess. I'm not sure many could do better. However the 76ers trade hurts and was a debacle.

 

[206Fan]

Can't really argue with much of what you said. I was happy with choosing Willie, but right now, he doesn't look anything like the player I saw at Kentucky. Now in fairness, Willie has never been a great rebounder, some of which I attributed to playing away from the basket on defense more than a normal center or PF would due to how he was being used. Its not just Willie's rebounding. He's not blocking any shots either. His man on man defense has been pretty good, and he's defended the P&R well.

On thing of note is that Kentucky played a dribble drive offense, and so did Karl, so maybe that's why Willie looked more comfortable last season. Don't know for sure. If I'm Joerger, I'd tell Willie to forget offense, and just attack the basket. Too many times he becomes a spectator instead of a participant. That usually happens when your thinking too much. When your on the floor, you need to react, not think.

Hey, he's just starting his second year in the league. I don't think we should overreact too much. Maybe Skal needs to tap Willie on the shoulder and remind him that he plays the same position, and he can shoot the ball...

What do you think has been his problem to start off the season? It's understandable for Willie to get lost on offense. He's been asked to do much more with this offense than he's been asked of from Cal+Karl combined(basketball processing part).
Maybe he could be over-thinking things on that end, leading to poor decision on defense? I really don't know what's gotten into him.
in his rookie year, there were lots of times where he would ball-watch the ball on the rim, but I remember him improving on rebounding throughout the season. In SL, we saw a player who completely forgot the basics.
It has to be mentally right?

I'll give him some lee-way for the way Kentucky used him though. WCS was tasked with guarding out in the perimeter, to the point where he wasn't able to develop fully as a rebounder. However, to counter my own point, he wasn't always used this way for 3 years. Bigger counter-point, almost ALL of Calipari's NBA bigs became good/great rebounders: AD, Cousins, Noel, KAT, and Randle. Even T-Jones is a good rebounder as a "tweener". It really doesn't make much sense. I know all of those guys spent less time guarding the perimeter, but clearly Calipari is teaching his guys the right stuff.

 

[206Fan]

I'm pretty close to starting the "Free Skal" chant. Willie has not shown me what I need to see, in any way, this summer or this season.

Eh, as bad as Willie has been, I don't think Skal should see any minutes yet...certainly wouldn't want to kill his confidence this early yet either. The only thing I see him being able to do this year is hit his mid range Js. Would be nice, but we already have Tolliver who can do that, plus more. If Willie really stinks the bed, maybe a Noel trade? Would not mind packaging McLemore+WCS for Noel. Or maybe Richardson over McLmeore if they prefer him. McLemore has outplayed all of the Sixers' SG this year. Yes, it includes Stauskas. Don't let Hollis Thompson's averages fool you either. I think he had 1 20pt game, with 4 terrible ones. Not sure that Philly says yes though.

If we didn't have a complete long-jam of wing players, I think Richardson would've been the best candidate to get some minutes this year.

For now, I think we should keep the "free Skal" comments tucked away... I can't help but feel like if Skal comes out and embarrasses himself, he might get a few boos. That's the last thing we want for Skal right now.

 

[Bricklayer]

How is this different than last season? We brought in a hall of fame coach, All-Star PG, and at least 3 well-regarded savvy veterans. We looked good for about 3 or 4 weeks and then turned into a soul-sucking torrent of misery. I've watched about half of the games so far. While it's a relief to finally see offensive sets that actually make sense and a defensive game plan that's kindof working, we also got outclassed by an Orlando team that 2 days earlier had to fight and scrap to eke out a win over the 76ers. There's a thin line between winning and losing on any given night and more often than not the difference is talent. We simply don't have it. Rudy Gay has been a bright spot so far but how much consolation can I really take in that when he's so clearly just auditioning for his next team? Speaking of which, how many of the players on this roster can we reasonably expect to come back next season? I see no more than 6 and that includes the kids. You call that flexibility to rebuild if Cousins leaves. I see it more as trading away our future draft pick (unprotected...) and then doing everything we can to shoo him out the door.

The lie here is that we're going to "replace them with better suited personnel if they don't (do well)". How are we going to convince coveted free agents to choose a losing team in Sacramento over every other team in the league? This is the ongoing problem which is not going to magically disappear. What we could do instead is trade the pieces we have that other teams might want (Gay, Collison, McLemore, Cauley-Stein) for kids (on multi-year contracts followed by restricted free agency) that those other teams undervalue because (unlike us) they're actually competing for something. Obviously that plan only works if you find the right kids but no Kings basketball team in Sacramento has ever been successful without finding the right kids to draft/sign/trade-for and shepherding them along into savvy veteran hood. If you really believe Dave Joerger is the right coach for the job like Rick Adelman before him (I'm still undecided, but I'm optimistic) than you have to trust him to work with the kids.

Speaking of Memphis, let's look at how they built that team: Marc Gasol (kid), Mike Conley (kid), Zach Randolph (pariah/reclamation project), Rudy Gay (kid), Tony Allen (savvy veteran). Sure that's a veteran team now but that's because they kept their kids and developed them.

It is absolutely irrelevant how you acquire your vets, just that you have them. They don't win as kids. Young fat Marc Gasol wasn't ready to win. Young Tony Allen in Boston wasn't ready to win. Young Rudy lost for years.

Its not about the kids. The kids are an ends to a means. The means are winning vets. If you draft them, great. If you get them as free agents, great. If you sign them from Europe, get them in trade, does not matter. The only real advantage to kids is a) you hope one can become a star, which is difficult to get in other ways; and b) they are cheap for a while and can be raised up under a certain coaching system. Well we did our kid to star thing many years ago now. And he's transitioned, and so the team goes with him. And we've changed systems every year so the vets we have added are actually better system guys for our coach's system than the kids.

We are simply not about the kids now, nor should we be. Kid acquisition is a different phase of the game. We passed through it, largely failed at it outside of Cuz, although we gave away our other two kid talents. So here we are. With a bunch of vets who used to be kids themselves, same as if we drafted them. If it helps people any, just pretend we did. We drafted Rudy #8 in 2006. Lawson #18 in 2009 with our 2nd pick after taking Tyreke. In that same draft we also got Darren Collison #21. And Matt Barnes is the ultimate career King after we picked him in the 2nd round way back in 2002.

That's all excessively snarky, but the point is simple: doesn't matter where they came from. What matters is that they were all kids once, and now they aren't, and because they aren't we have the sort of vet saavy and toughmindedness to be a factor for the playoffs this year. And really, we wouldn't feel that bad about drafting ability if instead of Jimmer, TRob and Nik Stauskas, we had drafted Rudy Gay, Ty Lawson and Darren Collison at those spots. Doesn't matter where they came from, they are here now.


BTW, the plan is fairly simple in concept: Be a tough, solid .500 or somewhat .500+ team this year. On the basis of that promising start, and a coach he likes, try to get Cuz to give us the Russel Westbrook mini-extension. Use our expiring situation and capspace in the summer to keep the guys who worked, and replace the ones who didn't, possibly somewhat easier with the dumpster fire label behind us, and either make or repeat in the playoffs, improving. Then use that status as a now established solid playoff team with a major star and coach who will get accolades for turning us around, to try to attract a higher class of free agent.

Its not rages to riches wake up one morning with a ring on your finger stuff. But its solid grinding progress that saves the franchise player and restores the franchise's respectability, and gives us a chance in a few years.

 

[bajaden]

I'm pretty close to starting the "Free Skal" chant. Willie has not shown me what I need to see, in any way, this summer or this season.

I think the only thing Willie needs is a couple of chilli dogs. Snap him right out of it...

 

[bajaden]

What do you think has been his problem to start off the season? It's understandable for Willie to get lost on offense. He's been asked to do much more with this offense than he's been asked of from Cal+Karl combined(basketball processing part).
Maybe he could be over-thinking things on that end, leading to poor decision on defense? I really don't know what's gotten into him.
in his rookie year, there were lots of times where he would ball-watch the ball on the rim, but I remember him improving on rebounding throughout the season. In SL, we saw a player who completely forgot the basics.
It has to be mentally right?

I'll give him some lee-way for the way Kentucky used him though. WCS was tasked with guarding out in the perimeter, to the point where he wasn't able to develop fully as a rebounder. However, to counter my own point, he wasn't always used this way for 3 years. Bigger counter-point, almost ALL of Calipari's NBA bigs became good/great rebounders: AD, Cousins, Noel, KAT, and Randle. Even T-Jones is a good rebounder as a "tweener". It really doesn't make much sense. I know all of those guys spent less time guarding the perimeter, but clearly Calipari is teaching his guys the right stuff.

Well, I'm not a mind reader, so I can't entertain the inner workings of Willie's mind. But he spent a lot time talking about, and I would guess working on, his improved offensive game. Maybe he's become so obsessed with it, that he's suffering from paralysis by analysis. Rebounding wise, he spends too much time watching the ball, instead of going after the ball. Good instinctive rebounders will find themselves moving toward the ball the moment it comes off the rim. They don't have to think about it, it just happens. It's a reactive instinct. Doesn't look like Willie has it, which is strange because he was a very good reactive shotblocker, which is a similar skill.

Anyway, I don't have the answer, but my suggestion to Joerger would be to lessen his offensive responsibility's, and have him protect the rim and attack the boards. The strange thing about his game right now, is that on one hand he's an elite athlete, and one of the fastest players on the team, but despite that, he looks like the game is going faster than him. It's like he's playing a musical instrument, but he's two beats behind the rest of the players. He needs to catch up with the rest of the band.

 

[hrdboild]

It is absolutely irrelevant how you acquire your vets, just that you have them. They don't win as kids. Young fat Marc Gasol wasn't ready to win. Young Tony Allen in Boston wasn't ready to win. Young Rudy lost for years.

Its not about the kids. The kids are an ends to a means. The means are winning vets. If you draft them, great. If you get them as free agents, great. If you sign them from Europe, get them in trade, does not matter. The only real advantage to kids is a) you hope one can become a star, which is difficult to get in other ways; and b) they are cheap for a while and can be raised up under a certain coaching system. Well we did our kid to star thing many years ago now. And he's transitioned, and so the team goes with him. And we've changed systems every year so the vets we have added are actually better system guys for our coach's system than the kids.

We are simply not about the kids now, nor should we be. Kid acquisition is a different phase of the game. We passed through it, largely failed at it outside of Cuz, although we gave away our other two kid talents. So here we are. With a bunch of vets who used to be kids themselves, same as if we drafted them. If it helps people any, just pretend we did. We drafted Rudy #8 in 2006. Lawson #18 in 2009 with our 2nd pick after taking Tyreke. In that same draft we also got Darren Collison #21. And Matt Barnes is the ultimate career King after we picked him in the 2nd round way back in 2002.

That's all excessively snarky, but the point is simple: doesn't matter where they came from. What matters is that they were all kids once, and now they aren't, and because they aren't we have the sort of vet saavy and toughmindedness to be a factor for the playoffs this year. And really, we wouldn't feel that bad about drafting ability if instead of Jimmer, TRob and Nik Stauskas, we had drafted Rudy Gay, Ty Lawson and Darren Collison at those spots. Doesn't matter where they came from, they are here now.


BTW, the plan is fairly simple in concept: Be a tough, solid .500 or somewhat .500+ team this year. On the basis of that promising start, and a coach he likes, try to get Cuz to give us the Russel Westbrook mini-extension. Use our expiring situation and capspace in the summer to keep the guys who worked, and replace the ones who didn't, possibly somewhat easier with the dumpster fire label behind us, and either make or repeat in the playoffs, improving. Then use that status as a now established solid playoff team with a major star and coach who will get accolades for turning us around, to try to attract a higher class of free agent.

Its not rages to riches wake up one morning with a ring on your finger stuff. But its solid grinding progress that saves the franchise player and restores the franchise's respectability, and gives us a chance in a few years.

Yeah except that your plan is a complete illusion. We lost 49 games last year, our starting PG in the off-season, and our second best player is begging to be traded before the season even starts and you're acting like we've turned a corner. Let's look at who will still be under contract after this season:

Cousins (1 more year)
Afflalo (1 more year w/ cheap buyout)
Koufos (1 year + player option)
Tolliver (1 more year w/ cheap buyout)
Temple (2 more years)
Barnes (player option)
--------------KIDS---------------------
Cauley-Stein (2 more years)
Papagiannis (3 more years)
Richardson (3 more years)
Labissiere (3 more years)

We haven't even proven that we can win 40 games and you see this team making the playoffs this year? I can't think of very many examples of a team downgrading their talent and improving by 10 wins anyway on pure guts and determination. Maybe George Karl single-handily blew up a playoff team last year and removing him from the scenario clears the path to success but we'll never know now because we didn't bring last year's team back. What if we're not a solid .500 team this year? Is there even a plan B to your scenario if we don't win? If Rudy Gay leaves after this season (which is all but guaranteed) how are we scoring more than 80 points per game next year with this crew? Afflalo is the only one of those veterans with a career average of PPG that's even in double digits and he's already 2 full years into the decline phase of his career. From my perspective you're asking Cousins and Joerger to work miracles with this bunch and banking the entire future of the team on it.

The whole point of the Memphis example is that successful All-Star versions of Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph don't come to Memphis any more than they come to Sacramento. They acquired those players before they matured/improved and made them into something. And they started winning while they were still kids (40 games in 09/10 with Gasol in his 2nd season, Gay in his 4th, Conley in his 3rd). We're not going to be able to buy a team like the Lakers. We're not going to be able to lure key free agents either even with a .500 record. We've tried outbidding every other team in the league and players still don't want to be here. The only option that's ever feasible for us is to draft or trade for young players who subsequently become superstars. Sure we had a lot of success before with key free agents like Bobby Jackson, Vlade, and Brad Miller but those teams don't win without the core of Webber/Peja/Jwill-Bibby. We traded our only All-Star for a young and troubled Webber (a complete fluke which is unlikely to happen again) and we drafted Peja and JWill then traded JWill for Bibby while both were still on their rookie contracts. Your plan isn't just a long shot, it's never worked before in the 30 year history of this franchise and it's unlikely to ever work for the smallest of the small market teams.

Also, I don't get what you're trying to prove by imaging we drafted our current vets. So what if we'd drafted all of our mediocre vets instead of signing them in free agency? That wouldn't make us any better right now. And right now we're simply not good enough to compete. Your whole premise that we're past the player development stage and should concentrate on loading up on heady veterans is predicated on the assumption that heady veterans want to come here which we already know that they don't. Afflalo, Temple, and Tolliver are fringe players who didn't have a lot of other options out there. Barnes probably did but he's from Sacramento so that's a unique circumstance which isn't going to happen again. crapty drafting is crapty drafting. It doesn't make the whole idea of drafting and developing young players a waste of time. Look at that list of players under contract again -- the only ones who have any hope of improving next season are Cousins and the kids. Your "screw the kids, let's just win" strategy is counter-productive. If we can't develop at least one of these kids into a solid rotation player we're already sunk unless the next Lebron James is currently playing his high school ball in Sacramento and isn't already a Golden State Warrior fan (sorry, low blow but I couldn't resist).

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I think the only thing Willie needs is a couple of chilli dogs. Snap him right out of it...

Those were damn good chili dogs!

 

[Bricklayer]

. And right now we're simply not good enough to compete.

See, this is the flaw in your thinking that underpins everything.

Yes we are.

And in fact we have been doing nothing but competing since the season began. Compete for a title? Of course not. But its kind of a myth that that's a common thing that all teams have coming out of a rebuild. Is Toronto a title contender? No. But they got their guys and went with it. Detroit? No. Utah, with all their youth? No. When your main guys reach a point in their careers where they are capable of winning, then that's it. You either trade them and go back to fiddling with kids for more years, or you start loading up on vets and put together a competitive team to get them to the playoffs.

And our team is NOT undertalented to accomplish the relatively modest task of making the playoffs. Here's what a solid playoff team from last year looks like talentwise:

#1 Damian Lillard
#2 CJ McCollum
Mason Plumlee
Alan Crabbe
Shabazz Napier
Ed Davis
Evan Turner
Noel Vonleh
Pat Conaughton
Al-Farouq Aminu
Jake Layman
Meyers Leonard
Festus Ezeli
Maurice Harkless
Tim Quarterman

Now I know Turner was drafted ahead of Cousins and all, but I can't ever recall saying, OMG, they have Pat Conaughton!!! And those are the level teams we have to outcompete. Not Golden State. Not San Antonio. Teams with a star, 1 or 2 support guys, and then a bunch of various vets held together by a strong coach. Well that describes us too. Phoenix is young. Dallas is 0-5 and may be done. New Orleans is 0-6 and probably already is done. The Lakers have won a few, but I'll eat my hat if their kiddie corps keeps them in it the whole way. Minny is very young, although talented enough maybe they overcome it. Houston was bad defensively and hired Mike D'Antoni to fix it. Memphis is going through an identity crisis and we'll have to see who stays healthy and not decrepit for them. Denver is young. OKC is leaning so hard on one guy. There's nothing extraordinary about a well coached team with a major star and a bunch of roleplayers crashing the playoff party this year. Its not going to take 50 wins.

P.S. its nowhere near a given Rudy goes, although to be safe I continue to consider trades to move him for pieces during the season. Nonetheless I wasn't the only person who noticed him walking off the court with his arm around Joerger's shoulder after our first win. And he's certainly not playing like a guy checked out. Winning cures many ills. Being featured doesn't hurt either. If he likes the coach, if we win, if the locker room is sane and the Golden1 crowds remain loud, its not a given.

 

[KingsFanGER]

See, this is the flaw in your thinking that underpins everything.

Yes we are.

And in fact we have been doing nothing but competing since the season began. Compete for a title? Of course not. But its kind of a myth that that's a common thing that all teams have coming out of a rebuild. Is Toronto a title contender? No. But they got their guys and went with it. Detroit? No. Utah, with all their youth? No. When your main guys reach a point in their careers where they are capable of winning, then that's it. You either trade them and go back to fiddling with kids for more years, or you start loading up on vets and put together a competitive team to get them to the playoffs.

And our team is NOT undertalented to accomplish the relatively modest task of making the playoffs. Here's what a solid playoff team from last year looks like talentwise:

#1 Damian Lillard
#2 CJ McCollum
Mason Plumlee
Alan Crabbe
Shabazz Napier
Ed Davis
Evan Turner
Noel Vonleh
Pat Conaughton
Al-Farouq Aminu
Jake Layman
Meyers Leonard
Festus Ezeli
Maurice Harkless
Tim Quarterman

Now I know Turner was drafted ahead of Cousins and all, but I can't ever recall saying, OMG, they have Pat Conaughton!!! And those are the level teams we have to outcompete. Not Golden State. Not San Antonio. Teams with a star, 1 or 2 support guys, and then a bunch of various vets held together by a strong coach. Well that describes us too. Phoenix is young. Dallas is 0-5 and may be done. New Orleans is 0-6 and probably already is done. The Lakers have won a few, but I'll eat my hat if their kiddie corps keeps them in it the whole way. Minny is very young, although talented enough maybe they overcome it. Houston was bad defensively and hired Mike D'Antoni to fix it. Memphis is going through an identity crisis and we'll have to see who stays healthy and not decrepit for them. Denver is young. OKC is leaning so hard on one guy. There's nothing extraordinary about a well coached team with a major star and a bunch of roleplayers crashing the playoff party this year. Its not going to take 50 wins.

P.S. its nowhere near a given Rudy goes, although to be safe I continue to consider trades to move him for pieces during the season. Nonetheless I wasn't the only person who noticed him walking off the court with his arm around Joerger's shoulder after our first win. And he's certainly not playing like a guy checked out. Winning cures many ills. Being featured doesn't hurt either. If he likes the coach, if we win, if the locker room is sane and the Golden1 crowds remain loud, its not a given.

Yes we compete, but we came up short in various games versus teams we have to beat, if we want a shot at the PO. May be because Joerger hasn't all offensive sets in yet. May be because our talent level is just too low. We'll see.
But you can't act like every veteran role player is the same. Those guys Portland has on their roster may be no major stars, but I sure as hell would trade for half their roster in a heartbeat.

 

[Fora Dragi]

See, this is the flaw in your thinking that underpins everything.

Yes we are.

And in fact we have been doing nothing but competing since the season began. Compete for a title? Of course not. But its kind of a myth that that's a common thing that all teams have coming out of a rebuild. Is Toronto a title contender? No. But they got their guys and went with it. Detroit? No. Utah, with all their youth? No. When your main guys reach a point in their careers where they are capable of winning, then that's it. You either trade them and go back to fiddling with kids for more years, or you start loading up on vets and put together a competitive team to get them to the playoffs.

And our team is NOT undertalented to accomplish the relatively modest task of making the playoffs. Here's what a solid playoff team from last year looks like talentwise:

#1 Damian Lillard
#2 CJ McCollum
Mason Plumlee
Alan Crabbe
Shabazz Napier
Ed Davis
Evan Turner
Noel Vonleh
Pat Conaughton
Al-Farouq Aminu
Jake Layman
Meyers Leonard
Festus Ezeli
Maurice Harkless
Tim Quarterman

Now I know Turner was drafted ahead of Cousins and all, but I can't ever recall saying, OMG, they have Pat Conaughton!!! And those are the level teams we have to outcompete. Not Golden State. Not San Antonio. Teams with a star, 1 or 2 support guys, and then a bunch of various vets held together by a strong coach. Well that describes us too. Phoenix is young. Dallas is 0-5 and may be done. New Orleans is 0-6 and probably already is done. The Lakers have won a few, but I'll eat my hat if their kiddie corps keeps them in it the whole way. Minny is very young, although talented enough maybe they overcome it. Houston was bad defensively and hired Mike D'Antoni to fix it. Memphis is going through an identity crisis and we'll have to see who stays healthy and not decrepit for them. Denver is young. OKC is leaning so hard on one guy. There's nothing extraordinary about a well coached team with a major star and a bunch of roleplayers crashing the playoff party this year. Its not going to take 50 wins.

P.S. its nowhere near a given Rudy goes, although to be safe I continue to consider trades to move him for pieces during the season. Nonetheless I wasn't the only person who noticed him walking off the court with his arm around Joerger's shoulder after our first win. And he's certainly not playing like a guy checked out. Winning cures many ills. Being featured doesn't hurt either. If he likes the coach, if we win, if the locker room is sane and the Golden1 crowds remain loud, its not a given.

Crabbe,Harkness ,leonard...all more talented than kings supporting cast. Btw the Kings not having talent is often sighted as why we can't win with boogie. Plus, the blazers play team basketball and can all hit jump shots which fits the current NBA 3pt style. Now we do need vets to win but the vets we have are not the vets we are looking for.

 

[mac]

Yes we compete, but we came up short in various games versus teams we have to beat, if we want a shot at the PO. May be because Joerger hasn't all offensive sets in yet. May be because our talent level is just too low. We'll see.
But you can't act like every veteran role player is the same. Those guys Portland has on their roster may be no major stars, but I sure as hell would trade for half their roster in a heartbeat.

All it takes is for Cousins to be out for 10 games and we're done, same ol same ol.

Last year we were looking good right up to the all star break. Brick was singing the same song. We even had a pretty good 15 game stretch, which fans said wasn't really indicative of the team playing well because Cousins had to put up monster numbers every game. Has anything really changed this season? Aside from phoenix, Cousins is still having to score 30 for us to even be in games

 

[KingMilz]

All it takes is for Cousins to be out for 10 games and we're done, same ol same ol.

Last year we were looking good right up to the all star break. Brick was singing the same song. We even had a pretty good 15 game stretch, which fans said wasn't really indicative of the team playing well because Cousins had to put up monster numbers every game. Has anything really changed this season? Aside from phoenix, Cousins is still having to score 30 for us to even be in games

I think your referring to the stretch where Karl matched the GOAT 9-6 record set by one Mike Malone

 

[Bricklayer]

All it takes is for Cousins to be out for 10 games and we're done, same ol same ol.

Last year we were looking good right up to the all star break. Brick was singing the same song. We even had a pretty good 15 game stretch, which fans said wasn't really indicative of the team playing well because Cousins had to put up monster numbers every game. Has anything really changed this season? Aside from phoenix, Cousins is still having to score 30 for us to even be in games

Last year we had the talent too. It was amusing watching how snowblind the fanbase had become through all the losing. But we beat good teams, elite teams, on their home floor. That is borderline impossible to do if you don't have talent. What scuttled us last year wasn't talent, it was losing to all the BAD teams.

And our hot streak was impressive, but the way it ended was telling too. The team quit . Quit on the coach. I am not even entirely sure given the obvious disappointment and lack of fight post-break if there may not have been an attempt to get Karl fired.

Regardless, the obvious conclusion last year is we had the talent to win, but we did not have the will to win. We were immensely distracted and fighting ourselves. So we walked into tough gyms and beat great teams. And then we'd come home and lose to lottery teams.


And none of that distraction is evident this year. The only thing still broken and not on the right page is the fanbase. You guys are a mess and wouldn't know good fortune if it landed on your nose at this point. Or actually its closer to say wouldn't believe it and would try to ignore it. but that's not the way it works. In some ways its very egocentric. There is nothing special or magical about the Kings. Same rules apply to them as the rest of the league. Good coach, big star, coach and star get along, 2nd weapon. Apply veteran roleplayers. Play defense. Voila! What do you know, a solid team.

Last year Dave Joerger coached a Memphis team so injury ravaged that only 1 of their 5 starters played more than 56 games, and that was Zach Randolph with 68. They had 28 players run through town. All Stars Matt Barnes and Jamaychel Green were the only two players to break 70 games. 37 year old Chris Anderson started 14.. Ryan Hollins started 9. Jordan Farmer 10. Lance Stephensen was brought in as a reclamation project and played a major role down the stretch. And they STILL had a winning record and made the playoffs. But oh noes we're Sacramento he can't do it with this roster if we stay reasonably healthy? Poppycock.

 

[Bricklayer]

Crabbe,Harkness ,leonard...all more talented than kings supporting cast. Btw the Kings not having talent is often sighted as why we can't win with boogie. Plus, the blazers play team basketball and can all hit jump shots which fits the current NBA 3pt style. Now we do need vets to win but the vets we have are not the vets we are looking for.

Crabbe, Harkness, Leonard are NOT more talented than Darren Collison, Ty Lawson, and Arron Afflalo.

 

[mac]

Last year we had the talent too. It was amusing watching how snowblind the fanbase had become through all the losing. But we beat good teams, elite teams, on their home floor. That is borderline impossible to do if you don't have talent. What scuttled us last year wasn't talent, it was losing to all the BAD teams.

And our hot streak was impressive, but the way it ended was telling too. The team quit . Quit on the coach. I am not even entirely sure given the obvious disappointment and lack of fight post-break if there may not have been an attempt to get Karl fired.

Regardless, the obvious conclusion last year is we had the talent to win, but we did not have the will to win. We were immensely distracted and fighting ourselves. So we walked into tough gyms and beat great teams. And then we'd come home and lose to lottery teams.


And none of that distraction is evident this year. The only thing still broken and not on the right page is the fanbase. You guys are a mess and wouldn't know good fortune if it landed on your nose at this point. Or actually its closer to say wouldn't believe it and would try to ignore it. but that's not the way it works. In some ways its very egocentric. There is nothing special or magical about the Kings. Same rules apply to them as the rest of the league. Good coach, big star, coach and star get along, 2nd weapon. Apply veteran roleplayers. Play defense. Voila! What do you know, a solid team.

Last year Dave Joerger coached a Memphis team so injury ravaged that only 1 of their 5 starters played more than 56 games, and that was Zach Randolph with 68. They has 28 players run through town. All Stars Matt Barnes and Jamaychel Green were the only two players to break 70 games. 37 year old Chris Anderson started 14.. Ryan Hollins started 9. Jordan Farmer 10. Lance Stephensen was brought in as a reclamation project and played a major role down the stretch. And they STILL had a winning record and made the playoffs. But oh noes we're Sacramento he can't do it with this roster if we stay reasonably healthy? Poppycock.

And therein is the point - in this early season we aren't beating the teams we're supposed to beat. We're falling behind every single game before playing catchup and hoping Cousins doesn't foul out. If either Rudy or Cousins misses a number of games or just plays poorly our playoff chances are gone

 

[Amit149]

A quick point about the rookies vs vets discussion is that from a team building stand point rookies have some great advantages.
hrdboild already touched on it, but it's not just that you get rookies on a cheap 4-year contract, it's also the value of having them as restricted FA afterwards which help you make long term plans (since you can be pretty certain you'll keep them for 8 years) and also allows you to use your capspace on actual vets because you will have full bird rights by the time you'll need to resign them (which let you go over the cap to resign them).

Both Ben and Ty are on expiring contracts, let's say both have a huge breakout years:
We have no control or advantage on where Lawson (the vet) will go and we can't go over the cap to retain him.
At the same time Ben (the rookie) will be a restricted FA we can match on, and we'll have the ability to go over the cap to resign him which, taking into account his low caphold figure, will allow us to sign another expensive player.

These advantages are the reason in my mind that rookies have higher value, outside the fact that you can potentially get top-level players who would be close to impossible for us to get in the FA market.

 

[KingsFanGER]

Crabbe, Harkness, Leonard are NOT more talented than Darren Collison, Ty Lawson, and ArronAffl

Well that depends how you want to define talent.
If you look at career averages or past accolades Afflalo, DC and Lawson are clearly ahead of the Blazers guys.
If you look at current contribution or contribution during the last season and PO the picture is suddenly changing quite a bit, although Afflalo did put up solid numbers on a very bad team.
And if you look at how GM's leaguewide value said players it's becoming more and more difficult to claim, that Lawson and Afflalo are more talented right now, than the guys you mentioned.

The Blazers didn't want Afflalo. They gave his minutes to Crabbe. Terry Stotts is a pretty good coach and certainly knows, why he is doing certain things. So this could be pretty telling right?

 

[Fora Dragi]

Crabbe, Harkness, Leonard are NOT more talented than Darren Collison, Ty Lawson, and Arron Afflalo.

You mean now or 5 years ago?

 

[Fora Dragi]

The last 6 mo it has been cuz has no talent around him and that's why we lose. Now it's he has plenty of talented vets. Which is it? Honestly, it really doesn't matter. Kings and/or cuz will move on soon. It's up to Vivek to show the league he isn't at sh!t crazy. I cringe every time I see him.

 

[Ron]

You mean now or 5 years ago?

Don't know 'bout Brick. I say they're not less talented NOW.
Care to ellaborate on why you think otherwise?

 

[Chupacabra]

I've stepped away from the ledge on the topic of blowing it up. The lack of defense and perceived lack of effort despite the defensive coach and veteran roleplayers is what's most troubling. Everyone is still scoring over 100 on us.