[Grades] Grades v. Jazz 3/22/12

What goosed our cook?

  • JT ya gotta hit those damn FTs!!

    Votes: 21 50.0%

  • 2 balls ripped out of Cousins hands in the final minutes

    Votes: 1 2.4%

  • Smart should have stuck with the guys who got us there down the stretch

    Votes: 6 14.3%

  • Smart should have gone back to IT and JT earlier

    Votes: 1 2.4%

  • Confused defensive mistake on the final Jefferson score

    Votes: 7 16.7%

  • Reke. Its always Reke.

    Votes: 6 14.3%
  • Total voters
    42
  • Poll closed .
It takes team balance to win. The Thornton/Reke/Cousins starting group is unbalanced. You need IT out there setting pace and handling the ball at the start.

Tyreke needs to learn how to play in a style that is conducive to winning and this is part of that learning process. For years the team has been content to play Reke ball and lose. That time has passed.

Now I'm tired of going over that. Let's discuss Cousins letting Jefferson get his shots too easily or the lack of IT for 3pt shooting during an important stretch.
 
Oh, and Paul milsaps 16 ppg 9 rpg and 2 spg would mean nothing to us as well.

don't get me wrong im not advocating trading for Paul Milsap and Al Jefferson because i think we can be better than what they would bring...but there is no doubt in my mind that we would be a playoff team with two veteran big men of that caliber on our team.
 
The_Jamal said:
A HoF career and the 2nd most important player on 2 championship teams apparently is not good enough of a ceiling for Reke
Click to expand...



Actually its not for a ceiling -- Reke could be a considerably more dominant player than Manu. An All Star every single season if it works out right. But that's not the point. Manu was a mature player (he came over as a 25 yr old rookie) who had already won a title and personnel accolades for the winningest team in the league by the time he was asked by his longtime coach and longtime teammates to come off the bench (and please that he came off the bench as a rookie hardly counts -- he just wasn't ready to start).
 
Great game. Not talking about the past or the future but the coach played this one real well and deserves credit along with his team. Analysis all you want on who or how we lost the game. If you watched the last minute you saw how it worked. Too bad we took a loss. At the end Utah was lucky to win it but win it they did. I would like to see Evans start but tonight Evans coming off the bench threw a rihger in Utah's game and we darn near did it. If the rest of season sees us play like tonight I'm happy.
 
Bricklayer said:
Actually its not for a ceiling -- Reke could be a considerably more dominant player than Manu. An All Star every single season if it works out right. But that's not the point. Manu was a mature player (he came over as a 25 yr old rookie) who had already won a title and personnel accolades for the winningest team in the league by the time he was asked by his longtime coach and longtime teammates to come off the bench (and please that he came off the bench as a rookie hardly counts -- he just wasn't ready to start).
Click to expand...

He won his 1st championship as a rookie, where he was nothing more than a role player so I'll agree there. However, since then, he's been a full-time starter 3 out of the next 8 years and has started 346 out of 648 career games. The guy has built himself a HoF career off the bench. Reke displays many of the same characteristics as Manu does which is why I think he can succeed in that same role. If tonight's game from Reke is any indication to that (which was probably the best overall game he's played since his rookie year) then it can only mean positive things for this franchise. It doesn't diminish his value as the 2nd most valuable player on this team whatsoever
 
Npliam said:
Oh Brother.
Click to expand...


You Utah guys are funny. I have indeed often considered three young (21,22, 24) players who are the three leading scorers on their team...by a lot, average 19pts 4reb 2ast, 17pts 5reb 5ast and 17pts 11reb 1.5ast to be the equivalent of 4 young players on another team only one of whom starts and averages 10ppg, and whom average 10pts 3reb 3ast, 9pts 6reb, 7pts 2rebs, and 5pts 5rebs. Very similar cases. Really.
 
Bricklayer said:
You Utah guys are funny. I have indeed often considered three young (21,22, 24) players who are the three leading scorers on their team...by a lot, average 19pts 4reb 2ast, 17pts 5reb 5ast and 17pts 11reb 1.5ast to be the equivalent of 4 young players on another team only one of whom starts and averages 10ppg, and whom average 10pts 3reb 3ast, 9pts 6reb, 7pts 2rebs, and 5pts 5rebs. Very similar cases. Really.
Click to expand...

Oh brother again.
 
Bricklayer said:
No. As I mentioned in another thread you do that and you just lost your ROY in a year's time, because there will be any number of teams all too happy to start him out there when he hits free agency.

Now that said, Reke was probably thinking hey look at this, I get to handle the ball without having to fight over it with 3 other guys who want it all the time whuke I'm wrestlin gwith guys 20lbs bigger than I am.
Click to expand...

...so you think Tyreke, probably the most "team-first" and humble guy is going to leave this team simply for being a super 6th man that averages basically the same minutes and plays all of the important minutes while being able to produce better and more efficiently? Alright then! :rolleyes:

I'm sure that is why Ginobili left the Spurs!

Oh wait...
 
vikinginferno said:
...so you think Tyreke, probably the most "team-first" and humble guy is going to leave this team simply for being a super 6th man that averages basically the same minutes and plays all of the important minutes while being able to produce better and more efficiently? Alright then! :rolleyes:

I'm sure that is why Ginobili left the Spurs!

Oh wait...
Click to expand...

As I mentioned in my other conversation in this thread, using Manu is a poor argument. You're missing all the details that made that move possible -- age/success/familiarity...oh, and not being in line for a possible max contract.

Reke made a nice gesture fro Salmons. The team interpreted it as such. As it turns out Salmons hasn't exactly run with it. Might last one more game, or it may alreayd have run its course. John was doing better as the lead guard on the bench crew anyway.
 
Bricklayer said:
As I mentioned in my other conversation in this thread, using Manu is a poor argument. You're missing all the details that made that move possible -- age/success/familiarity...oh, and not being in line for a possible max contract.

Reke made a nice gesture fro Salmons. The team interpreted it as such. As it turns out Salmons hasn't exactly run with it. Might last one more game, or it may alreayd have run its course. John was doing better as the lead guard on the bench crew anyway.
Click to expand...

So even though Reke had one of the best games of the season off the bench and the team flowed marvelously (DeMarcus and Marcus' bad shooting in the first half had nothing to do with how the offense ran, just bad shooting) from the starters to the bench, you want to disrupt the rhythm even if the team continues to play great basketball with Reke as a super 6th man?

It sounds to me like you may be putting YOUR interests of Tyreke ahead of the team and possibly the interests of Tyreke himself. Tyreke is 100% team first and if the best place for him on the team is to be coming off the bench playing 30-35 minutes a night and providing a Ginobili-esque spark, then he should continue in my opinion.
 
Bricklayer said:
As I mentioned in my other conversation in this thread, using Manu is a poor argument. You're missing all the details that made that move possible -- age/success/familiarity...oh, and not being in line for a possible max contract.

Reke made a nice gesture fro Salmons. The team interpreted it as such. As it turns out Salmons hasn't exactly run with it. Might last one more game, or it may alreayd have run its course. John was doing better as the lead guard on the bench crew anyway.
Click to expand...

I agree with this, Salmons was doing much better with the 2nd unit, however a starting lineup with Thornton, Tyreke, Cousins isn't balanced, too much offense that we are sacrificing by playing our 3 top scorers together, each night one of the three wont get enough shots, or not have enough shots to get going. The reason Reke got going tonight was because he knew he was the only scorer on the floor in the second quarter, didnt have to worry about lettting cousins and Thornton get their touches. One of Tyreke or Thornton has to come off the bench. This is only to balance our play in the first and second, and perhaps third quarter. Tyreke and Cousins can start and be the catalysts, then Thornton can come in guns blazing, this gives the second unit a legits scorer to work off of. Thornton could work very well off of Hayes anyway.

We are very much built like the Spurs, not identical but similarly
Cousins= Duncan (Talented 7 footers, that dominate the boards)
Tyreke= Parker (Attack minded gaurds, that love to get to the rim)
Thornton= Ginobli (Can score inside and outside, both love to get out and run)

So what i want to see is

pg: Isaiah (or a good veteran pg that can shoot the 3)
sg: Tyreke
sf: Defensive minded sf that can hit the spot up 3 (Bruce Bowen)
pf: JT (is earning his position)
c: Cousins

Bench
6. Thornton
7. Hayes
8. Salmons
9. Garcia/Donte
10. Jimmer

(Bench positions 8-10 can change based on trades or free agent signings/draft pick)
 
Tyreke starts 2 games off the bench and we're already discussing the possibility of his leaving to start somewhere else. Knee-jerk much?
 
jpsls said:
Tyreke starts 2 games off the bench and we're already discussing the possibility of his leaving to start somewhere else. Knee-jerk much?
Click to expand...

you'e missing the inbetween step.

Tyreke offers to let Salmons start while he and the team are hot = fine
Aha! Lightbulbs go off we'll make his coming off the bench permanent!!! = not fine
THEN you get into the question of Reke leaving. Not to mention no player in a Kings uni ever again making the mistake of making a team first offer
 
Bricklayer said:
you'e missing the inbetween step.

Tyreke offers to let Salmons start while he and the team are hot = fine
Aha! Lightbulbs go off we'll make his coming off the bench permanent!!! = not fine
THEN you get into the question of Reke leaving. Not to mention no player in a Kings uni ever again making the mistake of making a team first offer
Click to expand...

I think your missing the point, we all know tyreke should be a starter on this team, him offering to come off the bench is setting a good example for the rest of the team. Now its up to Salmons to say "coach, i felt more comfortable in the second unit, Tyreke should start". And eventually Thornton should become our ginobli/terry, the likelyhood of Thornton accepting that role for this team has increased by Tyreke doing what he did. I think the main point everyone is trying to make is that a starting lineup of Cousins, Tyreke, Thornton isn't ideal to get the best out of our 3 stars. One of Reke/Thornton needs to accept the 6th man role, Tyreke took the initiative and set the precedent for hopefully Thornton to follow, once we find a starting sf for this team.
 
If Tyreke ends up playing his normal minutes and ends up on the floor at the conclusion of the game I see no issues if he is able to sustain, or increase, his level of production off the bench.

I still think it would best benefit this team long term to either find a way to get him back into the starting lineup and use Thomas as a super 6th man, or move Reke before any value is lost. The only way the potential issues go away is if this team goes on a 17 game winning streak to to end the year.
 
Another reason Reke might be starting else where is because he will be looking for at least 10-12m per on the extension, it will be tough for our FO to give a bench player 10-12m. Even the great Jason Terry didn't reach 10m until 10-11 season @ age 32, Ginobili didn't reach 10m until 09-10 @ age 31.
 
this was about as good a game as you're going to get right now. lots of factors could tip the balance in the Kings favour -ie. no off games for Cousins and Thornton (though he was hurt) in the first half, more d earlier, not missing the freethrows, not turning the ball over on a go ahead pass for an open layup and a few more calls going the Kings' way- yet they lose by only one rebound. Evans' game was nothing short of amazing and seeing him go to work on the Jazz second unit was a sight to behold. he did keep playing well with the starters though, so I'm not apprehensive about him going back to the starting unit. it would be nice if he were afforded a stretch where he could just work over an opponent without having to worry too much about the rest of his team, just to get him going, but I have faith that it'll work out fine in the end. Ultimately, this game works out fine, as you can mark it as a win for team chemistry and growing together, despite falling just short, and it keeps the Kings from falling out of the race for a good pick (Portland won too, huh? weird).

random observations:
- this is the third starter going down with an ankle injury in the last few weeks. Boogie and IT better tape those ankles good and Salmons is probably going to *want* to return to the bench.
- if this team knows one thing, it's who to turn to in the clutch. this Thornton guy needs to stay, no way around it.
- all the stuff going wrong in this game (stupid TOs, missed freethrows, sometimes bad defense) all scream young team and can and will be corrected over time.
 
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Bricklayer said:
They are. But they are also far far back of our young guys. We've got three of them right on the cusp of being stars with star level productivity. Utah's guys have talent, but its still hope and a prayer type talent at this point.
Click to expand...

I'd take hope and prayer Favors any day. He's barely beginning and he's making an impact out there. They have good talent on that team.
 
Favors > Boogie. DMC is a bad offensive player, a really good rebounded and below average defender for a big. He mostly has a negative impact on games. He has great potential but he is a big that shoots around 42%. That can't be ignored.
 
Last edited:
In the last game I thought MT was the only guy who did "A" work. This time it was Tyreke. He was great. Just like the last game, the team played unselfishly, but this time they just didn't have the polish to get it done. Too many little mistakes. They just looked a little off in their shot and their timing, and the interior D was not good. Also, Jefferson obviously did not like his last performance against Cousins. He was a monster out there. Utah has a very good front line. Still, it was a good showing I thought. Things are looking up
 
Npliam said:
Favors > Boogie. DMC is a bad offensive player, a really good rebounded and below average defender for a big. He mostly has a negative impact on games. He has great potential but he is a big that shoots around 42%. That can't be ignored.
Click to expand...

This guy kiddin?
 
Npliam said:
Favors > Boogie. DMC is a bad offensive player, a really good rebounded and below average defender for a big. He mostly has a negative impact on games. He has great potential but he is a big that shoots around 42%. That can't be ignored.
Click to expand...

Lol if DMC is a bad offensive player I shudder to think what Derrick Favors is. But let's not make this a p*ssing contest. You're a Jazz fan, I'm a Kings fan, no way we're going to agree. Hell a Bobcats fan would say their team was better than ours.
 
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