[Grades] Grades v. Jazz 2/18/12

[Bricklayer]

On the poll question - I would keep Garcia and Greene and maybe even Salmons unless we were able to get players any better. I think this question is better answered later or at the end of the season. For the past 5 games we have had a new team. Let them play another 20 games together and see who is a keeper and who isn't.

Have we? I see people saying that, but almost nothing has changed. IT's numbers have gone up, nobody else's has. We still have all our talent and pop in our starting lineup while our bench falters. Defense is still a nightly issue.

 

[Kingster]

With all due respect, I disagree. I think Smart is in charge and is doing great. If he did it my way they'd probably throw his *** off the team.

Ahh, at first I didn't understand what you were saying. You're saying that he can only go so fast in this transition phase, or he couldn't survive politically. Is that correct?

 

[The_Jamal]

Have we? I see people saying that, but almost nothing has changed. IT's numbers have gone up, nobody else's has. We still have all our talent and pop in our starting lineup while our bench falters. Defense is still a nightly issue.

How can you ignore how much improved our offense has been with IT running the show? He's the only one on the team who consistently can get Cousins the ball and has provided the spark this team has needed for awhile now. The defense is certainly an issue, but it's more of keeping IT-Thornton-Reke on the floor for so long which is causing problems. Throw Thornton on the bench, platoon the **** out of Garcia/Salmons/Greene and we'll see the defense pick up

 

[kingsnation]

FWIW, this video is awesome!

 

[IfAt1st]

Thomas ( B ) -- got off to the real slow start to this one, and you had to wonder if the little guy's clock had struck midnight.

How many times does IT have to play this way for you to believe in him?

(Do we have a new team)? I see people saying that, but almost nothing has changed. IT's numbers have gone up, nobody else's has. We still have all our talent and pop in our starting lineup while our bench falters. Defense is still a nightly issue.

So if IT is the only major difference in the past handful of games, than you have to give him the majority of the credit for how much better the offense in running in crunchtime.

The Kings offense is completely different with IT running it - it doesn't bog down, it doesn't freeze to a stop under pressure, it doesn't consist of pounding the ball for 10 seconds up top, it gets in the frontcourt a full 5 seconds sooner, etc etc etc.

IMO, it's not even close - the Kings offense has worked WAY better when IT is running it than when Tyreke ran it into the ground.

Most KF's seem happy that the offense is running better.
Are you?

 

[Section 101]

Have we? I see people saying that, but almost nothing has changed. IT's numbers have gone up, nobody else's has. We still have all our talent and pop in our starting lineup while our bench falters. Defense is still a nightly issue.

And yet in your own stats thread it shows the point differential has gotten a lot better. So as we have played faster we have been in more games.

 

[The_Jamal]

The major problem is Smart playing Reke at SF. Move Thornton to the bench, start Reke at the 2, and start a real SF and we'll be in buisiness. I have no problem going to the 3-guard lineup at the end of games, but it's simply a defensive liability to use it a majority of the game

 

[Spike]

How many times does IT have to play this way for you to believe in him?


So if IT is the only major difference in the past handful of games, than you have to give him the majority of the credit for how much better the offense in running in crunchtime.

The Kings offense is completely different with IT running it - it doesn't bog down, it doesn't freeze to a stop under pressure, it doesn't consist of pounding the ball for 10 seconds up top, it gets in the frontcourt a full 5 seconds sooner, etc etc etc.

IMO, it's not even close - the Kings offense has worked WAY better when IT is running it than when Tyreke ran it into the ground.

Most KF's seem happy that the offense is running better.
Are you?

We also haven't been able to put any teams away. You can't do it when you have more guards on the floor. The Kings don't have the potential to beat teams into submission any more.

People bring up point differential, but the biggest change came when Smart started coaching Evans on being a PG. Huge drop in PTdiff, and wins against some pretty elite teams.

It's good to know that I'm not alone on this crazy island?

 

[Bricklayer]

And yet in your own stats thread it shows the point differential has gotten a lot better. So as we have played faster we have been in more games.

1) we were constantly improving all season long, the recent bump is minor
2) we have small sample size, notably populated by 4 bad teams and 1 elite team (Miami)
3) and now we are going to start playing at home forever, where we were already 7-5 despite all the early season struggles.
4) And the mere fact IT has gotten minutes instead of Salmons explaoins basically all fo the improvement we have seen. We have added a productive player in place of an unproductive one.

 

[Bricklayer]

How many times does IT have to play this way for you to believe in him?


So if IT is the only major difference in the past handful of games, than you have to give him the majority of the credit for how much better the offense in running in crunchtime.

The Kings offense is completely different with IT running it - it doesn't bog down, it doesn't freeze to a stop under pressure, it doesn't consist of pounding the ball for 10 seconds up top, it gets in the frontcourt a full 5 seconds sooner, etc etc etc.

IMO, it's not even close - the Kings offense has worked WAY better when IT is running it than when Tyreke ran it into the ground.

Most KF's seem happy that the offense is running better.
Are you?

I'll go very slow for everybody here.

IT = better ballhandler and passer than...JOHN SALMONS. Imagine that? Odd huh?

So, and let me wait here for everybody to catch up....if you take out JOHN SALMONS and replace his minutes with those given to ISIAH THOMAS then...

wait for it...

you have more ballhandling and passing!!!

Tada!!


BTW it also does not hurt to play a swath of bad teams. our two mighty victories have come over the 2nd worst team in the league and Utah, who is now 3-12 on the road and basically as bad as we are away from home. And I will absolutely take any win I can get. But to say that we haven't exactly been playing teams that can squeeze us is a vast understatement. This is ALWAYS the way it was going to go. Tough first half of the schedule, easier second half. And two weeks ago I would have circled both the WSH and UTH games as wins. Likely CLE and DET too for that matter. At least as possibles.

 

[kennadog]

Problem is, Tyreke is not a SF and I think we're wasting his talents at that position.

 

[pshn80]

Problem is, Tyreke is not a SF and I think we're wasting his talents at that position.

We have those that suggest Evans isn't a point guard and those that suggest he is not a small forward. Evans is obviously a very good player with many talents and has to be in the starting lineup. Does make you think.

 

[Section 101]

Problem is, Tyreke is not a SF and I think we're wasting his talents at that position.

He's more a small forward than a PG. If said since his rookie year his skill set is more suited to SF and that the best thing we could hope for was him to group 2-3 more inches.

And while I don't associate assist to being a point guard (it's about running the team) I think it's notable that mixed in with PG's are mostly SF in assists.

12. LBJ 6.8
20. Pierce 5.4
21. Iggy 5.3
23. tie Evans 5.2
26. Kobe 4.9
30. Hedo 4.5

 

[Glenn]

We have those that suggest Evans isn't a point guard and those that suggest he is not a small forward. Evans is obviously a very good player with many talents and has to be in the starting lineup. Does make you think.

And there are those that think he is not a SG. It makes you think, that's for sure. He is an incredible athlete that, when you sum up all the arguments, has no position on the basketball court. Now what? This is very interesting and I think having a relatively inexperienced coach hurts us. It wastes Tyreke.

The part that frustrates me is that his statistical achievements are many. The last time I looked, he played the most minutes, he was the second leading scorer, he had the most assists, and the other stats were darn good.

We attribute the improvement in the team's stats to the use of IT at PG. Are we so sure? Maybe it's a matter of a bunch of strangers, some of whom are great athletes, are getting used to each other. Maybe it's a matter of maturation. I remember at the beginning of the season people were excited about how good our team was. That fell flat on its face and we turned on Westphal. It's the same team. Now it is playing better so we conclude (rightfully, I think) to Smart. Now it is getting even better and we attribute it to IT. Perhaps it is simply Smart playing the kind of basketball he is accustomed to and that is small ball. He is coaching the style he is most comfortable with. He was "lucky" to find a player who helped him play his style of basketball. Also, IT is lucky to be on a team of great athletes.

I have stated for a long time that the great coaches adjust their style to the players they have available. That isn't being done. The team is playing better and at the same time, we are not getting our money's worth out of Reke. No matter how many holes he has in his game he is still our second best player. There simply must be a way of using your second best player more effectively.

My idea is that IT be the PG of the 2nd unit and then he can dominate the ball all he wants and it doesn't detract from the potential of other players.

Better yet, call Sloan.

 

[Section 101]

And there are those that think he is not a SG. It makes you think, that's for sure. He is an incredible athlete that, when you sum up all the arguments, has no position on the basketball court. Now what? This is very interesting and I think having a relatively inexperienced coach hurts us. It wastes Tyreke.

Going to disagree here. He has lots of experience as a coach, not a head coach. But one thing he did that I thought impossible was made Monta Ellis a better player. Ellis career is similar to Evans the question is can Evans adapt like Ellis did.

 

[rainmaker]

Here's a problem which I know well from living in Warrior land, and no one else has mentioned. This substitution mess and not using your best players correctly in nothing new to Smart. In fact, it happened last year, and many down here think its the reason he lost his job.

http://www.csnbayarea.com/03/17/11/..._steinmetz_v3.html?blockID=442587&feedID=5986
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/42124487/ns/sports-player_news/

He did the same frickin thing with Steph Curry last year. Many here who don't like Reke, like Curry. So it's not even just a case of Reke not fitting in. Apparently Smart didn't know how to use Curry effectively either.

Interestingly, IT isn't the pure pg everyone makes him out to be. He has a comparable usage rate to Reke, and an almost identical ast rate/%. IT isn't the reason our team asts shot up. They started going up in mid-Jan after Smart implemented his offense, and Reke was a huge part of it.

The offense is running smoother, but I think that's in large part to Salmons being on the bench. Reke doesn't look good at all at SF, and IT also really isn't getting him the ball in effective spots. He's best getting an iso at the top of the key, or on the wing with a screener and the floor spread. Not happening right now. But whats worse, is the defense Reke plays at SF. His opponents when he's at SF have a PER of 40.2! That is not a mistake.

Compare that to Reke at sg, where his PER is 21.6, highest of any position for him by far, and his opponents PER when at sg is 17.0, a far cry from 40.2 he gives up at SF.

None of this says IT shouldn't play point. I like him there. It's working. The problem is Reke at SF. He a guard. If you're not playing him at point, he's a 2, and all the stats back that up. One argument is Reke needs to learn to play off the ball. True, and he is, and is improving. He'd still be off the ball at sg, but would get many more touches, and hence will have a larger impact on offense, while not getting killed on defense. Some talk like playing off the ball is always teh same role, and its black and white, you either play well off the ball or you don't. Well, Kobe plays some off the ball with Fish. Wade plays off the ball from Lebron/Chalmers, and vise versa. But those somewhat off the ball rolls are completely different than the off the ball role a Korver plays, or a Hayward from last night. You can keep a guy heavily involved without him being the initiator. There are a number of ways to play off the ball besides standing in the corner and waiting for IT, or any other pg to dish it to you.

Tougher to play off the ball next to MT, who's also looking to get his off the ball as well. I also don't think even with IT playing well, losing what Reke gives us equates to a net positive. Not at all. Part of IT's job as the point is to get Reke going as our 2nd best player. Not only get Cousins going. Something he'll need to work on.

But really what I worry about is Smart losing Reke due to mismanagement. He could correct it by playing MT off the bench and moving Reke to the 2. But having him sit off the ball, catch and shoot, and split minutes with Salmons won't work. We're not a better team without Reke contributing. And we're not just losing Reke's offensive contributions, but getting burned defensively at that position and neutering our bench.

Really I don't think this is about IT. He's doing great. It's about Smart completely mismanaging our 2nd best talent. And, there's a track record here. I saw all this upclose last year in Oakland. Last year it was Smart thinking Acie Law made GS better, and even though Law was playing well, Smart decided losing Curry along the way was a good decision. Then Mark Jackson came along, said enough of this, and started playing Monta/Curry big minutes together again, until Curry got injured.

 

[Glenn]

Going to disagree here. He has lots of experience as a coach, not a head coach. But one thing he did that I thought impossible was made Monta Ellis a better player. Ellis career is similar to Evans the question is can Evans adapt like Ellis did.

So he is a skilled coach and if Evans doesn't turn out well, it's Evan's fault.

 

[Glenn]

But really what I worry about is Smart losing Reke due to mismanagement. He could correct it by playing MT off the bench and moving Reke to the 2. But having him sit off the ball, catch and shoot, and split minutes with Salmons won't work. We're not a better team without Reke contributing. And we're not just losing Reke's offensive contributions, but getting burned defensively at that position and neutering our bench.

Ouch!!!!!!!!

 

[rainmaker]

Going to disagree here. He has lots of experience as a coach, not a head coach. But one thing he did that I thought impossible was made Monta Ellis a better player. Ellis career is similar to Evans the question is can Evans adapt like Ellis did.

He made Curry a hell of a lot worse.

Forgot to mention that, did you?

He also made Lin a better player, right? Er...no, actually he didn't. Mismanaged that one a wee bit as well.

 

[The_Jamal]

Here's a problem which I know well from living in Warrior land, and no one else has mentioned. This substitution mess and not using your best players correctly in nothing new to Smart. In fact, it happened last year, and many down here think its the reason he lost his job.

http://www.csnbayarea.com/03/17/11/..._steinmetz_v3.html?blockID=442587&feedID=5986
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/42124487/ns/sports-player_news/

He did the same frickin thing with Steph Curry last year. Many here who don't like Reke, like Curry. So it's not even just a case of Reke not fitting in. Apparently Smart didn't know how to use Curry effectively either.

Interestingly, IT isn't the pure pg everyone makes him out to be. He has a comparable usage rate to Reke, and an almost identical ast rate/%. IT isn't the reason our team asts shot up. They started going up in mid-Jan after Smart implemented his offense, and Reke was a huge part of it.

The offense is running smoother, but I think that's in large part to Salmons being on the bench. Reke doesn't look good at all at SF, and IT also really isn't getting him the ball in effective spots. He's best getting an iso at the top of the key, or on the wing with a screener and the floor spread. Not happening right now. But whats worse, is the defense Reke plays at SF. His opponents when he's at SF have a PER of 40.2! That is not a mistake.

Compare that to Reke at sg, where his PER is 21.6, highest of any position for him by far, and his opponents PER when at sg is 17.0, a far cry from 40.2 he gives up at SF.

None of this says IT shouldn't play point. I like him there. It's working. The problem is Reke at SF. He a guard. If you're not playing him at point, he's a 2, and all the stats back that up. One argument is Reke needs to learn to play off the ball. True, and he is, and is improving. He'd still be off the ball at sg, but would get many more touches, and hence will have a larger impact on offense, while not getting killed on defense. Some talk like playing off the ball is always teh same role, and its black and white, you either play well off the ball or you don't. Well, Kobe plays some off the ball with Fish. Wade plays off the ball from Lebron/Chalmers, and vise versa. But those somewhat off the ball rolls are completely different than the off the ball role a Korver plays, or a Hayward from last night. You can keep a guy heavily involved without him being the initiator. There are a number of ways to play off the ball besides standing in the corner and waiting for IT, or any other pg to dish it to you.

Tougher to play off the ball next to MT, who's also looking to get his off the ball as well. I also don't think even with IT playing well, losing what Reke gives us equates to a net positive. Not at all. Part of IT's job as the point is to get Reke going as our 2nd best player. Not only get Cousins going. Something he'll need to work on.

But really what I worry about is Smart losing Reke due to mismanagement. He could correct it by playing MT off the bench and moving Reke to the 2. But having him sit off the ball, catch and shoot, and split minutes with Salmons won't work. We're not a better team without Reke contributing. And we're not just losing Reke's offensive contributions, but getting burned defensively at that position and neutering our bench.

Really I don't think this is about IT. He's doing great. It's about Smart completely mismanaging our 2nd best talent. And, there's a track record here. I saw all this upclose last year in Oakland. Last year it was Smart thinking Acie Law made GS better, and even though Law was playing well, Smart decided losing Curry along the way was a good decision. Then Mark Jackson came along, said enough of this, and started playing Monta/Curry big minutes together again, until Curry got injured.

What this guy said^

IT
Reke
Greene
JT
Cousins

with MT-Salmons-Hayes-Garcia as our bench rotation.

Our bench all of a sudden becomes 20x better, our lineup has solid balance+ good defenders+being huge at 4 positions.

 

[Section 101]

He made Curry a hell of a lot worse.

Forgot to mention that, did you?

He also made Lin a better player, right? Er...no, actually he didn't. Mismanaged that one a wee bit as well.

Really? What part of his game got worse besides his ankle?

Looks to me like all his numbers went up last year and are back down this year except his minutes which have gone down each year.

 

[Section 101]

So he is a skilled coach and if Evans doesn't turn out well, it's Evan's fault.

If Evans doesn't get better then yes it's mostly on Evans just like any other player.

 

[Glenn]

If Evans doesn't get better then yes it's mostly on Evans just like any other player.

Would it be similar logic that says that if a player improves, this also has nothing to do with the coaches but is on the player?

 

[Kingster]

I'll go very slow for everybody here.

IT = better ballhandler and passer than...JOHN SALMONS. Imagine that? Odd huh?

So, and let me wait here for everybody to catch up....if you take out JOHN SALMONS and replace his minutes with those given to ISIAH THOMAS then...

wait for it...

you have more ballhandling and passing!!!

Tada!!


BTW it also does not hurt to play a swath of bad teams. our two mighty victories have come over the 2nd worst team in the league and Utah, who is now 3-12 on the road and basically as bad as we are away from home. And I will absolutely take any win I can get. But to say that we haven't exactly been playing teams that can squeeze us is a vast understatement. This is ALWAYS the way it was going to go. Tough first half of the schedule, easier second half. And two weeks ago I would have circled both the WSH and UTH games as wins. Likely CLE and DET too for that matter. At least as possibles.

So let me post this very slowly. It's more than IT replacing Salmon's minutes. It's IT replacing Tyreke's role as primary ballhandler. You're understanding is superficial.

 

[rainmaker]

Really? What part of his game got worse besides his ankle?

Looks to me like all his numbers went up last year and are back down this year except his minutes which have gone down each year.

All you had to do was pay attention, watch their games and follow the media in the Bay Area. Everyone down here realizes Curry was much worse as the season went on because of random benchings and Smart riding the bench to a fault, namely Acie Law.

Statistically it won't show up. But all you had to do was watch. It was all over sports radio down here at the time. I guess I should say he didn't make Curry a worse player, just as Reke isn't any worse of a player than he was to start the season. Curry still put up numbers, as Reke most likely will, but the positive effect on the team wasn't there. The stats became more empty. Curry sat more and more in the 4th in favor of the bench. So Curry was worse in his contributions to the team. He went from 2nd best player and a key piece to getting empty stats and not being on the floor in the 4th about every other game.

I know Steph's stats looked good, but his effect wasn't anywhere near what it was. And as expected, riding the bench helped at first as they won a few, but at a certain point the bench players showed why they're bench players, and GS started losing. I'm not really here to argue about it. It's common knowledge here and was both reported and talked about at length.

 

[Section 101]

Would it be similar logic that says that if a player improves, this also has nothing to do with the coaches but is on the player?

Depends. What's the saying you can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink. You can coach/teach a player/people, but that doesn't mean they are going to learn from it. All the coach/teacher can do is provide the information and explain it the best way they can. So far it seems like Smart has been trying to do it with not just Evans, but everyone on the team.

 

[Section 101]

All you had to do was pay attention, watch their games and follow the media in the Bay Area. Everyone down here realizes Curry was much worse as the season went on because of random benchings and Smart riding the bench to a fault, namely Acie Law.

Statistically it won't show up. But all you had to do was watch. It was all over sports radio down here at the time. I guess I should say he didn't make Curry a worse player, just as Reke isn't any worse of a player than he was to start the season. Curry still put up numbers, as Reke most likely will, but the positive effect on the team wasn't there. The stats became more empty. Curry sat more and more in the 4th in favor of the bench. So Curry was worse in his contributions to the team. He went from 2nd best player and a key piece to getting empty stats and not being on the floor in the 4th about every other game.

I know Steph's stats looked good, but his effect wasn't anywhere near what it was. And as expected, riding the bench helped at first as they won a few, but at a certain point the bench players showed why they're bench players, and GS started losing. I'm not really here to argue about it. It's common knowledge here and was both reported and talked about at length.

So a 10 game improvement over the previous year was not a positive effect on the team?

 

[Kingster]

And there are those that think he is not a SG. It makes you think, that's for sure. He is an incredible athlete that, when you sum up all the arguments, has no position on the basketball court. Now what? This is very interesting and I think having a relatively inexperienced coach hurts us. It wastes Tyreke.

The part that frustrates me is that his statistical achievements are many. The last time I looked, he played the most minutes, he was the second leading scorer, he had the most assists, and the other stats were darn good.

We attribute the improvement in the team's stats to the use of IT at PG. Are we so sure? Maybe it's a matter of a bunch of strangers, some of whom are great athletes, are getting used to each other. Maybe it's a matter of maturation. I remember at the beginning of the season people were excited about how good our team was. That fell flat on its face and we turned on Westphal. It's the same team. Now it is playing better so we conclude (rightfully, I think) to Smart. Now it is getting even better and we attribute it to IT. Perhaps it is simply Smart playing the kind of basketball he is accustomed to and that is small ball. He is coaching the style he is most comfortable with. He was "lucky" to find a player who helped him play his style of basketball. Also, IT is lucky to be on a team of great athletes.

I have stated for a long time that the great coaches adjust their style to the players they have available. That isn't being done. The team is playing better and at the same time, we are not getting our money's worth out of Reke. No matter how many holes he has in his game he is still our second best player. There simply must be a way of using your second best player more effectively.

My idea is that IT be the PG of the 2nd unit and then he can dominate the ball all he wants and it doesn't detract from the potential of other players.

Better yet, call Sloan.

If you recall, when Tyreke was the pg of the 1st unit, this team got off to horrendous starts. Enter IT. Now the team doesn't have to dig itself out of a hole to China. There was a reason that IT replaced Tyreke as the primary ballhandler.

 

[Bricklayer]

So a 10 game improvement over the previous year was not a positive effect on the team?

Some of that has to be due to Lee arriving, but while I consider it a positive sign nonetheless, I could be talked out of that if he stagnated the growth of their top kids and hence set them up to be no better this year.

 

[pshn80]

We are way too early with the bad coaching stuff in my book. To our coach's credit he is trying different things to deal with real problems. His move to the current starting lineup has improved things. Defensive problems caused by the current lineup will be addressed by the staff. I don't believe the current starters are locked in stone but as long as things improve we will probably stick with it. If Evans has to face playing at SF when he doesn't want to then maybe he will help make another change work. The coach doesn't coach in a vacuum. All good things will come.