[Grades] Grades v. Heat 1/4/2017

#31
What has surprised me with Joerger is his stubbornness with the starting five and his rotations.

Jerry Sloan was really rigid about those things too and it worked for him (players developed chemistry and guys knew when they were being subbed out) but I didn't expect it from Joerger who has had to make do with makeshift lineups from his minor league days and last year with the Grizzlies. I guess I expected more flexibility and more decisions based on the opposing lineup and the flow of the game.

Yet he starts Boogie and Koufos against undersized perimeter frontcourts that drag Cousins out of the paint and who KK can't punish inside on the other end. And Ben inexplicably still has a starting role while Malachi can't get a real look. Casspi was glued to the bench early and keeps ending up in the doghouse for some reason.

Just stuff that makes no sense. I go back to that Raptors game in which briefly abandoned the KK/Boogie pairing and he started Collison and Lawson because they'd played well together to finish out the previous game. But why you'd have eiither the 5'11" Lawson or the 6'1" Collison guarding the 6'7" DeRozan (who was then the league's leading scorer) I have no idea.

Ultimately the Kings won that won and limited DeRozan to 11 or 12 points but nearly all of his damage was done early against that mismatch before Joerger was forced to sub.

I've been trying to give Joerger the benefit of the doubt but many of his decisions simply don't make any sense to me. This is a bad basketball team, sure but it feels like he's often handicapping it further.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#33
Everyone knows this game was a complete BS effort on the Kings part for 3 qtr's so no point in really getting too detailed about that.

I just wish our PG's knew how to take advantage of a 2-on-1 break to ensure a score. Twice in the 4th quarter both Ty Lawson and Darren Collison allowed Tyler Johnson to make a defensive play on a break because they refused to make an easy extra pass. Both non-plays occurred after steals by Garrett Temple -- who is quickly becoming one of my favorite Kings. All either PG had to do was pass to his open teammate once Johnson committed to stopping the ball. Of course neither did. The 2nd occurrence with under 1 minute remaining probably cost them the game as it would have put them up 2 and in the drivers seat.

BTW, it absolutely sickens me when the Kings allow average players such as Tyler Johnson look like really, really good players.

The Heat fielded a team slightly better than a good D league team tonight and the Kings still couldn't defend the home court. Worst loss of the season thus far. Unlikely to be topped.

There just went any shot at a 4-3 home stand.
In fairness to Lawson when Johnson blocked him from behind, there was no one else for him to pass to, and you can't blame Lawson, its rare when someone actually catches up to him. I thoght Lawson played very well last night. I can't say the same thing for Collison.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#34
Im annoyed that seemingly every team we play against does everything it can to shoot a 3 point shot. You know its coming. There were miami players that ive never seen or heard of that were trying to jack up as many 3's as they could. So annoying.
Well, if you watch other NBA games, they all shoot a lot of three's now. That's the current craze at the moment. Logically, it makes sense. If you were to shoot 33% from the three for the entire game, the other team would have to shoot 50% from the two to beat you. Those are good odds for the team shooting the three.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#36
Barnes sucks. Guy turns the ball over every other time he touches it and he cannot shoot
Hmmm, I wouldn't say he sucks, but I don't think he should be starting. I also wouldn't say he can't shoot, but that he's an inconsistent shooter. He'll go four for five one night, and zero for five the next. Don't know why, but it might be his legs are getting old and can't recover as well from game to game.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#37
By the way, I watched Dragic very closely last night, and his defense was pretty good. Collison had a lot of problems getting by Dragic, and Dragic didn't have much of a problem getting by Collison, which he did at will.
 
#38
In fairness to Lawson when Johnson blocked him from behind, there was no one else for him to pass to, and you can't blame Lawson, its rare when someone actually catches up to him. I thoght Lawson played very well last night. I can't say the same thing for Collison.
That's not true. As soon as Lawson began sprinting down court, he had Temple following. It would have been a 2-on-1 had he made the pass to Temple where in turn Garrett could have passed right back (once Johnson turned his hips) or just finished himself.

I see it so many times where a player decides to go aggressively to the rim while ignoring a teammate that they could easily pass to and get the defender to turn. Much of the time that player is a smallish guard that gets blocked by a larger defender. Whatever happened to taking advantage of the lone defender by passing it once he commits?
 
#39
I agree with many of the comments (particularly Ben's play and rotations). However it seems like we're ignoring the lack of D. If our D keeps sucking (especially on 3's) it won't matter who we start.
 
#41
I may be in minority but I can't get too worked up over last night. The pieces aren't in place to be a playoff team whether we win or lose an "easy" game like that. If a trade or two goes down to add 1-2 pieces so we can compete against the Top 4 seeds in the West, then we can talk. Then there's something to get excited about. But this team was always holding by a thread, with schedule wins (back-to-back, injuries) to create an illusion of capability.

Put it this way: If Matt Barnes were waived tomorrow, there's not 1 of 29 other teams that would sign him. This is my opinion but I am convinced of it. What kind of team can you be when you are playing a guy 25 MPG when no one in the league would have? This says a lot about our talent, struggles of guys like Omri, Willie, and Ben, unable to squeeze a washed up player for minutes. If you know this going in, losing to a depleted Heat team isn't completely unexpected.

And if you know MVP performance from Boogie is statistical and physical improbability, you know how vulnerable the team is when he is not on his game. The best you can hope for, as I have detailed before, is off-games do not preclude you from competing. He was 4 assists against 1 turnover and 13 points on 15 shots. That's a bad line for him but it did not keep us from battling down stretch. It may not sound like much, but Boogie's bad night of 4-15 FGs with 4:1 is better than 5-21 FGs with 5 TOs. These are the kind of games we were witness to last year. So that's something...and created an opening for the play of Affalo, Lawson and Temple to mean something before untimely substitutions at end.

Ultimately there needs to be more pieces in place when Boogie is not at his best, and those pieces don't exist, unless Willie and Ben are going to do a 180 or Malachi and Skal decide to skip the normal developmental curve. Wake me when a trade goes down. Until then it's going to take combination of a Herculean effort from Boogie, an off night, disinterested and/or hobbled night from opponent, or role players playing above their heads to scratch out wins on this home stand. All analysis, supposition and rationalization lead to one conclusion: this team isn't very talented and that includes a head coach who is not as advertised. (Defense rank: 26th out 30)
 

Larry89

Disgruntled Kings Fan
#42
Something that is also disheartening is that Ben doesn't really even need to dribble or run pick and roll. He could just learn how to come off screens and get open and cut and SHOOT, he can't do any of those. In his 4 years he hasn't even developed into a poor mans spot up shooter.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#43
No more McLemore, please. I'm embarrassed for him and the team and the fans and mankind watching him on the floor. He was ridiculously awful on both defense and offense in this game. You can't tell me there isn't some guy in the D league that could make more of contribution than him. And Whatever-CS is closing in on him fast. Again, I don't believe that you can't find a D-League guy better than Whatever-CS. Coach said he was going to play the rooks more, so get on with it.
 
#44
Joerger lost this one for us.

There is no doubt the bench has definitely not carried their weight most of the season. Last night was a completely different story. Tolliver and Kosta deserved to finish the game. Cousins was absolutely terrible. Barnes was worse. They both came in late in the 4th and took all the wind out of our sails. They left the door open and Tyler Johnson took full advantage of it. Tip of the hat btw, that kid can play. I will say the game was terribly officiated.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#46
I was at the game and had a close view....much of the bench was gassed after that run. Afflalo was dust. Could they have played more? Sure but Coach made the call to sub in Boogie and Barnes. I thought Barnes played well down the stretch sans the dumb tech. Boogie just didnt have a good game. No coach would not bring Boogie back into the game....none, zero. Joerger didn't cost us the game. I think he deserves credit for starting the second half with anew lineup and putting the right combination out there to get us back in it.

I think what cost us was obviously the first half. Just a step slow at every turn, including the reserves.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#47
Our biggest problem is Darren Collison routinely gets outplayed by the opposing teams PG's. he played well against Denver because Mudiay is not very good. Dragic torched him. We have a lower tier starting PG. Lawson has been more effective in more games.

I know Ben has been a disappointment but the reality is DC is routinely outplayed.
 
#48
Our biggest problem is Darren Collison routinely gets outplayed by the opposing teams PG's. he played well against Denver because Mudiay is not very good. Dragic torched him. We have a lower tier starting PG. Lawson has been more effective in more games.

I know Ben has been a disappointment but the reality is DC is routinely outplayed.
We have a lower tier starting PG, a starting SG who has to look way, way up to even see the lower tier, a top 10 or 15 starting SF who wants out, the best center in the NBA and a lower tier starting center/very solid backup center starting alongside him. This team needs a lot of help and I'm not sure how it gets fixed with the assets we have.
 
#49
Why didn't Joerger just let the bench finish it out? I guess I'll never understand the philosophy of taking out guys who are doing good for guys who just aren't...
I think he left them in for an extended period, but I know what you mean. And particularly Cuz, when he goes back in it always changes the play whether for better or worse.
 
#50
Not a Casspi fan but its crazy how little bad he has to do to get completely shunned out of the rotation while other scrubs like Darren/Willie/Ben seemingly go untouched for doing far worse.

I honestly think the coach dictates his rotations based on what will most likely keep the team the happiest and together. Not based on matchups/strategies or who from the bench might be effective that night. Almost everyone wants minutes and everyone is a free agent next year so they are fighting to showcase themselves for their next gig. There is real tension and real urgency in that locker room.

CD did a twitter poll and an overwhelming amount of kings want playoffs at all costs. The drought has caused people to lose sight on how true sustainable small market winners are built around the league. I'm not sure the casual fan will stand for a rebuild even though that is what is probably needed.

We should do what should have been done from the day Vivek took over, begin to acquire assets and go thru a full rebuild with a competent front office(hopefully) and Joerger at the helm.

Look there are no shortcuts to being winners unless your lucky enough to have lebron born in your city. if everyone could take shortcuts like we have attempted they would but the reality is you must build thru the draft!
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#51
We have a lower tier starting PG, a starting SG who has to look way, way up to even see the lower tier, a top 10 or 15 starting SF who wants out, the best center in the NBA and a lower tier starting center/very solid backup center starting alongside him. This team needs a lot of help and I'm not sure how it gets fixed with the assets we have.
PG upgrade.....Gay as trade bait for Payne or Knight or Dragic. Any of those guys and Lawson would be better. Lawson could play with both Knight and Dragic or back them up. Lawson would start while Payne develops. Then there is the draft.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#52
Not a Casspi fan but its crazy how little bad he has to do to get completely shunned out of the rotation while other scrubs like Darren/Willie/Ben seemingly go untouched for doing far worse.

I honestly think the coach dictates his rotations based on what will most likely keep the team the happiest and together. Not based on matchups/strategies or who from the bench might be effective that night. Almost everyone wants minutes and everyone is a free agent next year so they are fighting to showcase themselves for their next gig. There is real tension and real urgency in that locker room.

CD did a twitter poll and an overwhelming amount of kings want playoffs at all costs. The drought has caused people to lose sight on how true sustainable small market winners are built around the league. I'm not sure the casual fan will stand for a rebuild even though that is what is probably needed.

We should do what should have been done from the day Vivek took over, begin to acquire assets and go thru a full rebuild with a competent front office(hopefully) and Joerger at the helm.

Look there are no shortcuts to being winners unless your lucky enough to have lebron born in your city. if everyone could take shortcuts like we have attempted they would but the reality is you must build thru the draft!
He sat Afflalo for a stretch and he's been known to become a malcontent if not starting. Casspi complained early in the year and he's sitting him now. Casspi is not better than Barnes or Tolliver or Afflalo at SF. He plays hard but he has several guys in front of him.
 
#53
We have a lower tier starting PG, a starting SG who has to look way, way up to even see the lower tier, a top 10 or 15 starting SF who wants out, the best center in the NBA and a lower tier starting center/very solid backup center starting alongside him. This team needs a lot of help and I'm not sure how it gets fixed with the assets we have.
Id argue that he does not start on any other team in the league, especially not one with playoff hopes. Maybe he starts over Mudiay and Payton but those are two young guys on rebuilding teams.

An argument could be made that he is the worst starting PG in the league to complement our worst starting backcourt in the league.
 
#54
He sat Afflalo for a stretch and he's been known to become a malcontent if not starting. Casspi complained early in the year and he's sitting him now. Casspi is not better than Barnes or Tolliver or Afflalo at SF. He plays hard but he has several guys in front of him.
My point is there are alot of mistakes going on out there, why can't Joerger apply the same logic to the others like Willie/Ben or DC/Barnes who have been just as bad at times if not worse. I just cant see any consistency in his thought process in regards to benching/rotations.
 
#55
The Ben McLemore pick not working out is very frustrating. That was a high pick, and we've basically got nothing. Not even sure where he could play in the league at this point. He's shooting TWENTY NINE percent from 3. Here's the cold hard truth: He's a guard with no handles, very mediocre D, can't really shoot, mistake prone, low bb IQ, almost no passing ability. His one golden ticket to staying in the league was high level shooting. Year four and it's actually gotten worse. Would almost be tolerable if he had turned himself into a lockdown defender and to this day I can't figure out why he hasn't. He has all the physical tools.

Unfortunately for Ben there are about 30 college or D league 2 guards that could come in right now and be more effective than him. He's running on pure potential and sadly it may have run out. I feel for the guy, honestly. I tend to psychoanalyze players but with him I haven't a clue. Was really rooting for him this year as I heard he put in a hell of a lot of work in the offseason. If a change of scenery does him good, I'll be happy. That's what we should be hoping other teams are thinking.
Ben was a good pick who has not panned out at all. Our worst mistake was not recognizing this fact earlier and moving him out. The biggest reason for our poor results these last two years and this year is all the minutes Ben has played. Love the guy but the sooner he is gone the better.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#56
The Ben McLemore pick not working out is very frustrating. That was a high pick, and we've basically got nothing. Not even sure where he could play in the league at this point. He's shooting TWENTY NINE percent from 3. Here's the cold hard truth: He's a guard with no handles, very mediocre D, can't really shoot, mistake prone, low bb IQ, almost no passing ability. His one golden ticket to staying in the league was high level shooting. Year four and it's actually gotten worse. Would almost be tolerable if he had turned himself into a lockdown defender and to this day I can't figure out why he hasn't. He has all the physical tools.

Unfortunately for Ben there are about 30 college or D league 2 guards that could come in right now and be more effective than him. He's running on pure potential and sadly it may have run out. I feel for the guy, honestly. I tend to psychoanalyze players but with him I haven't a clue. Was really rooting for him this year as I heard he put in a hell of a lot of work in the offseason. If a change of scenery does him good, I'll be happy. That's what we should be hoping other teams are thinking.
Loved the post, but I think the never-ending patience with McLemore by the Kings organization has given the league evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that he cannot play in this league. Maybe a year or two ago there might have been some GMs that thought maybe he could play, that maybe he would develop, but now he's proven without question that he can't. To me, it's a cautionary tale that should speak to the future of WCS. When WCS has proven beyond a shadow of doubt he can't play, who will want him? Better to make a deal now when there is still some doubt in the air about his future prospects.
 
#57
PG upgrade.....Gay as trade bait for Payne or Knight or Dragic. Any of those guys and Lawson would be better. Lawson could play with both Knight and Dragic or back them up. Lawson would start while Payne develops. Then there is the draft.
Dragic would be an upgrade. Payne might be an upgrade in time. I'd argue that Knight is a lateral move and at a much higher price tag. But he is locked up beyond this year and DC isn't.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#58
Loved the post, but I think the never-ending patience with McLemore by the Kings organization has given the league evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that he cannot play in this league. Maybe a year or two ago there might have been some GMs that thought maybe he could play, that maybe he would develop, but now he's proven without question that he can't. To me, it's a cautionary tale that should speak to the future of WCS. When WCS has proven beyond a shadow of doubt he can't play, who will want him? Better to make a deal now when there is still some doubt in the air about his future prospects.
Remember once upon a time when Cleveland had interest in McLemore?
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#59
My point is there are alot of mistakes going on out there, why can't Joerger apply the same logic to the others like Willie/Ben or DC/Barnes who have been just as bad at times if not worse. I just cant see any consistency in his thought process in regards to benching/rotations.
I think Joerger's doing a great job of piecing together as much production as he can in 48 minutes......can't tell you about Ben. There may be more to it that we are not privy too...such as keeping him in rotation while we are looking to trade him....honestly don't know. But I think coach is grinding 48 minutes out of the roster.