[Grades] Grades v. Clippers 04/05/12

[bajaden]

No, that's exactly right -- MT CAN shoot 4 of 15. Jimmer can't. Why? MT has proven himself in the NBA as a near 20ppg scorer. He's earned that 4-15 because most nights its 7-15 or 8-15 and he can flat out carry you, against NBA competition. Jimmer hasn't proven anything. College hype aside he hasn't even clearly established he'll be in the NBA after his rookie deal is up. So no, he doesn't get to shoot 4-15 or throw up 3 or 4 crap jumpers after dribbling around for 15 seconds, because he hasn't proven he's worth that sort of disruption yet. The joke is the double standard..in favor of the .378 shooting rookie! Thornton or Reke play like that, oh its all angry mutters and what cancers they are. Jimmer does it, ooh its just Jimmer being Jimmer. Well until Jimmer has proven he is worthy of carrying our other guards' jocks IN THE NBA, not against 20yr old kids on Idaho St., he doesn't get to do that. Its just bad basketball.

And that's a real problem, and has been a real probelm even before Jimmer began to stumble. In college he was a flat chucker (it worked mind you, but he still took probably at least 1/3 of his team's shots). And the very last thing this team needs is another chucker. And now with him stuggling so mightily against traps and pressure, on defense etc., you try to get value out of him by saying go play like you did in college...which is to say, go dribble around and chuck shots. Except in college he was the best guy on the team and him dribbling around and chucking was both higher percentage against college competition and still probably a better option than any of his teammates. But now in the pros he is most definitely not the best guy on the team. He's not even one of the 5 best guys. Some him running around struggling to play Jimmer ball against superior NBA players while the guys on our own team who have proven far more stand in the corner, or sit on the bench, and watch is just silly.

this has nothing to do btw with him shooting threes when guys kick it to him or whatnot -- he should shoot everyone of those he gets thrown. This is about him having to play like a primary option to be effective at all, when on a good team he might be a 10th-12th man right now.

P.S. as for the Douby compariosn BTW, these were Douby's and Jimmer's numbers as seniors in college:
Douby: 36.7min 25.4pts (.462 .401 (on 8.8attempts) .847) 4.3reb 3.1ast 1.8stl 0.8blk 2.8TO
Jimmr: 35.8min 28.9pts (.452 .396 (on 8.5attempts) .894) 3.4reb 4.3ast 1.3stl 0.0blk 3.5TO

I don't see how you can annoint one of those guys, who dribbled around dominating the ball for his college team and bombing away from 3pt land, a shooter with a green light anywhere and anytime in the NBA, and the other something else.

Were a bit sensitive aren't we? I don't disagree that Thornton has proven himself. Thats not the issue. The issue is the exaggerated display of emotion over Jimmer taking too many shots, if indeed thats the case. Just exactly what is he susposed to do? You call him a chucker, and obviously you didn't see enough of him in college to realize that he has other skills besides just shooting the ball. And I won't bore you and everyone else by going over them again. But accepting your premise, that he's nothing but a chucker, and he's put into the game, where exactly is the win/win for him. If he takes shots, and misses them, he's the goat. If he passes up shots and just moves the ball, you'll politely write that he simply did nothing but stand around.

The only thing Jimmer should do, is be Jimmer. And after watching him play for two years in college, I can safely say that he hasn't been. If a player was the best player on his team, and was annointed, rightly or wrongly, one of the best college players at the time. Just what you expect him to do when he comes into the NBA? Become a different player than the one that got him to the NBA in the first place? Because frankly, thats what I think he's been doing. Trying to fit in and not rub anyone the wrong way. That might make you popular with the guys, but it'll also get you a one way ticket to the DBL. He needs to be who he is, and if thats not good enough, then so be it. But at least go down in flames in the heat of battle fighting your best fight.

I'm not defending Jimmer because he's my favorite player. I'd trade him tomorrow if I thought it would help the team. I'm defending him the same way I'd defend any player on the team that I think is being pretrayed as something he's not. The reason I said Jimmer isn't Douby, is because I watched both guys play in college, and they're nothing alike. I believe what my eye's tell me, not what a stat sheet tells me. In my humble opinion, Douby had little or no court vision, and I'm not sure he had great BBIQ either. Skill wise, Douby had the edge on Jimmer. He was by far more athletic, and was a better ballhandler. But because of the first two things he lacked, he was never going to be a PG. Believe it or not, Jimmer was a pretty good PG at BYU.

What I'm sick of, is people passing judgement on players that haven't even gotten their feet wet in the NBA. Its ignorant, and short sighted. And I'm not directing that at anyone in particular, but if the shoe fits, then wear it. Could Jimmer turn out to be a bust? Of course he could! But could we at least give him the time to find out. Must we put every player under a microscope at the end of each game. So far, the only accomplishment that Jimmer seems to have, is taking on the mantle of goat of the year, thereby relieving JT of that burden. Of course he has to share it with Tyreke on occasion.

 

[ppine]

I agree with Kingster. Smart understands the psychology of young players very well. Just like Walton said, Jimmer will be fine, he just needs some confindence. Leaving him in for so long with a green light is what he needs, especially in the last 3 weeks of the season. Take the pressure off as much as possible and turn him loose.Jimmer has dribblitis and needs to get over it as soon as possible. Being trapped in the coffin corner is inexcusable. Every high school kid learns that. IT sometimes dribbles too much. Maybe it is because their team mates like to stand around a lot.

 

[D13]

Picking apart coaching to win, in a close competitive game, at this stage of the season is ridiculous to me. It's crunch time to see what we have in players who haven't gotten many minutes for next season.. and to develop the rooks. That's all. Winning is nice but not a necessity. Coach Smart has the right idea I think... Big picture.

2 weeks of games left is not gonna change the starters confidence, for better or worse, anymore for next year with a win or loss. Plus our main guys seem to really be pulling for and routing for the guys that haven't had a much of a chance. I don't see anyone on the team having a prob with it. Let them play and try some different line ups.. if we win, cool.

 

[kingjatt]

Picking apart coaching to win, in a close competitive game, at this stage of the season is ridiculous to me. It's crunch time to see what we have in players who haven't gotten many minutes for next season.. and to develop the rooks. That's all. Winning is nice but not a necessity. Coach Smart has the right idea I think... Big picture.

2 weeks of games left is not gonna change the starters confidence, for better or worse, anymore for next year with a win or loss. Plus our main guys seem to really be pulling for and routing for the guys that haven't had a much of a chance. I don't see anyone on the team having a prob with it. Let them play and try some different line ups.. if we win, cool.

Thats fine im all for mixing and matching certain lineups but a 4 gaurd lineup at the end or at any point, is ridiculous. if playing evans at the 4 is in any type of plan that smart has for next season get comfy watching guys score with ease against us, sure it catches some teams off guard and we get a couple of buckets providing fools gold for smart and his nellie ball rotations but NBA teams recognize our obvious defensive defecencies and beat us easily, as many have said on this board, its a flashy style but not one that provides consistant winning basketball.

 

[kingjatt]

Smart has a tendency to ride out the bench to long if their going well in the 4th, then when teams go with their starters and take the lead he panics and runs a cold reke/MT/cuz out their with 4 or less mins to go when they should be in at around 8 mins. If we are going all in with this core at least 1 of them MUST be on the court at all times. How the heck are they suppose to develop when they are riding the pine in crunch time games like last night.
Personally i would much rather run them out their and loose and gain experiance with the potential upside they provide over Salmons/Cisco/Hayes/Outlaw, I honestly dont know what Smart is trying to accomplish, maybe he's just trying to keep everyone happy by running random *** lineups and giving scrubs 40 mins one night and DNP's the next night to play another scrub 40 mins. (exagerating on the 40 mins but you get my point)

 

[kupman]

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Kind of funny with this being the grades against the Clips. This actually looks more like Vinny Del Negro.

 

[treach1976]

Agree that taking Hayes off Blake is what killed us. And I could see it coming. We were up 3 with about 3 and a half to go. 2-3 quick buckets by Blake and the momentum had completely shifted, and suddenly we're down 3 with less than a minute and a half to go and they are this close to sealing it. That, and going away from the zone. And I can't figure out why. Just leave Hayes in, the zone was flustering them, and put in Reke and Cuz and go with IT, Reke, Williams, Hayes, Cuz. Still a fast enough line up to run a break and fairly beastly defensively. I had a bad feeling when we put Cuz on Blake one on one. We really should have had this game.

Gotta agree here... I don't think it was Smart's guard rotation that lost the game here. The 4 guard line-up/zone was keeping it close. It was the traditional line-up that let the game get out of hand earlier. What happened was Boogie getting out-played by Blake. Blake was all poise at the end, especially hitting those jumpers, he was all business. I see why Cousins was calling him out later, he got played and he didn't know what to do about it. Let's just hope this turns into a great rivalry for years to come.

 

[Mal]

"Despite how bad DMC played, and an off(?) shooting night by Evans"

5-13 is just one-half made shot off his season average of .442. .442 is far from terrible, but his .209 (season average) from three is pretty darn bad.

 

[Mal]

Douby played in a much tougher conference than Fredette with longer, quicker athletes and a "reputation" for tougher defense.

 

[bajaden]

Douby played in a much tougher conference than Fredette with longer, quicker athletes and a "reputation" for tougher defense.

No arguement there, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

[OnYouLikeGlue]

Jimmer needs to work on quickness and strength. I'm not sure you can do much to make yourself much quicker but every little bit helps. He needs to practice escapes traps either by learning to avoid or beat them.

I think the key for Jimmer is improving his ball handling. Just practice dribbling the entire summer. It will help him avoid those traps you're talking about. Also he needs to work on his spot up shooting. Its seems like in college he was shooting off his own dribble a lot, and coming off screens and shooting and spotting up are some weaknesses he has. For a guy thats such a good shooter he sure has been missing a lot of really wide open spot up 3's lately.

 

[pshn80]

What I'm sick of, is people passing judgement on players that haven't even gotten their feet wet in the NBA. Its ignorant, and short sighted. And I'm not directing that at anyone in particular, but if the shoe fits, then wear it. Could Jimmer turn out to be a bust? Of course he could! But could we at least give him the time to find out. Must we put every player under a microscope at the end of each game. So far, the only accomplishment that Jimmer seems to have, is taking on the mantle of goat of the year, thereby relieving JT of that burden. Of course he has to share it with Tyreke on occasion.

I agree that it is tiresome to hear about these things game by game by game. But with Jimmer, for whom I root, his failings are a big price for this or any team to bear during this learning process. Much more so than JT or anyone else who has received these kinds of minutes. The team in general play is really weakened by time given to playing Fredette. I'm willing to go along with for some more time but in his case it really hurts the team despite the great points he sometimes scores. So he really needs to do some magic in the off season. I hope it goes well for him.

 

[mac]

Were a bit sensitive aren't we? I don't disagree that Thornton has proven himself. Thats not the issue. The issue is the exaggerated display of emotion over Jimmer taking too many shots, if indeed thats the case. Just exactly what is he susposed to do? You call him a chucker, and obviously you didn't see enough of him in college to realize that he has other skills besides just shooting the ball. And I won't bore you and everyone else by going over them again. But accepting your premise, that he's nothing but a chucker, and he's put into the game, where exactly is the win/win for him. If he takes shots, and misses them, he's the goat. If he passes up shots and just moves the ball, you'll politely write that he simply did nothing but stand around.

The only thing Jimmer should do, is be Jimmer. And after watching him play for two years in college, I can safely say that he hasn't been. If a player was the best player on his team, and was annointed, rightly or wrongly, one of the best college players at the time. Just what you expect him to do when he comes into the NBA? Become a different player than the one that got him to the NBA in the first place? Because frankly, thats what I think he's been doing. Trying to fit in and not rub anyone the wrong way. That might make you popular with the guys, but it'll also get you a one way ticket to the DBL. He needs to be who he is, and if thats not good enough, then so be it. But at least go down in flames in the heat of battle fighting your best fight.

I'm not defending Jimmer because he's my favorite player. I'd trade him tomorrow if I thought it would help the team. I'm defending him the same way I'd defend any player on the team that I think is being pretrayed as something he's not. The reason I said Jimmer isn't Douby, is because I watched both guys play in college, and they're nothing alike. I believe what my eye's tell me, not what a stat sheet tells me. In my humble opinion, Douby had little or no court vision, and I'm not sure he had great BBIQ either. Skill wise, Douby had the edge on Jimmer. He was by far more athletic, and was a better ballhandler. But because of the first two things he lacked, he was never going to be a PG. Believe it or not, Jimmer was a pretty good PG at BYU.

What I'm sick of, is people passing judgement on players that haven't even gotten their feet wet in the NBA. Its ignorant, and short sighted. And I'm not directing that at anyone in particular, but if the shoe fits, then wear it. Could Jimmer turn out to be a bust? Of course he could! But could we at least give him the time to find out. Must we put every player under a microscope at the end of each game. So far, the only accomplishment that Jimmer seems to have, is taking on the mantle of goat of the year, thereby relieving JT of that burden. Of course he has to share it with Tyreke on occasion.

I agree that we shouldn't pass judgment in the sense that we shouldn't declare Jimmer a bust now. I do think however, that this "curse" where he receives criticism whether he shoots or doesn't shoot is largely on him. You say that Jimmer has other skills, yet he hasn't shown them other than the rare flashes of good playmaking. Teams literally exploit him on defense, and immediately pressure him any time he has to bring the ball up, and he hasn't shown the ability to pass it out or make the right plays in such situations. I don't think Jimmer will receive criticism for shot SELECTION if the shots he took were all within the flow of the offense, of course with some allowance given. I personally don't feel too critical of his shot selection but I do think that he needs to have a better FG%, because that's one thing that should translate to the NBA.

Many people don't hold JJ Redick in too high a regard, but I really think that I would be satisfied if Jimmer could become as good as Redick for us. If he exceeds that mark then it's all the better for us.

I do feel that our coaching staff is not making enough effort to put our guys in the right positions to maximise their abilities. The only guys they seem to care about are Cuz and IT. If we really wanted to help Jimmer out we'd run proper plays for him, setting screens to get him open. In any case, Keith Smart has completely gone away from the offense that I envisioned when we drafted Jimmer (Tyreke kicking out to him etc).

 

[pshn80]

Jimmer's problems are not the coach's fault.

 

[treach1976]

Jimmer's problems are not the coach's fault.

Of course not, but you have to admit that we don't run near enough screens/picks to get anyone open.

 

[mac]

Jimmer's problems are not the coach's fault.

True, the coach can't help him to improve his ball-handling or make his shots fall. He can however, try to give him some confidence back by actually running good plays to get him open, as opposed to telling him to just keep shooting (and watch his confidence drop even more when his shots don't fall).