HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
i have no problem with the team keeping Douglas, but not as a starter, on this current roster yes, but for the future no. hopefully new ownership brings in a legit starting PG
[Grades] Grades v. Clippers 03/19/2013
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
i have no problem with the team keeping Douglas, but not as a starter, on this current roster yes, but for the future no. hopefully new ownership brings in a legit starting PG
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
have you guy noticed that DeMarcus foul trouble problem that showed up almost every night his first 2 seasons, has kind of dissapeared? i cant remember the last time he fouled out and he's rarely in foul trouble anymore
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I've noticed some of that, and I noticed last night that Smart just kept him in there with 5 fouls, which I applaud. I agree with Reynolds on this - why as the coach do you want prematurely take him out of the game? Let it ride. Make the refs foul him out instead of you as the coach fouling him out. Lastly, I've noticed that Cousins hasn't taken nearly as many charges as he used to. He did have one last night, but his charge-taking seems to have dropped considerably from the early part of the season. This also may have something to do with fewer fouls - he's not playing D like he did earlier in the season.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Yes, I've noticed. Something else I THINK I have noticed is that he plays the best when he is angry. If he tries to be more passive to control the number of fouls he gets he is described as unmotivated, morose, etc. He went through a period like that and perhaps I am applying an explanation that is inaccurate. Anyway, an angry Cuz is a great Cuz and if an angry Cuz can keep his fouls down and play 36 minutes, we have a Cuz that will be top 3 if not #1. I think he has achieved a lot and so has Tyreke. Several posters have come close to begging that we give the young ball players time to master the task of playing in the NBA. We are seeing why.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I have always thought that Smart underestimated Cousins' ability to play with 5 fouls. It's part of playing in the NBA. Now we have Aldrich as a sub and I think that makes a lot of difference.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
The change has been there all year for those paying attention. Boogie's fouls per 36 over his career:
10-11: 5.2
11-12: 4.7
12-13: 4.1
getting a little better every year. If he can knock it down another notch next year, get down into the 3.5 range or so then he'll be largely over the worst of those problems. Dwight Howard is basically at 3.8. Guys like Hibbert and Perkins are worse hacks now than him. Its still a factor for him, but more often he is just a guy playing with foul trouble now rather than a guy being benched by it.
10-11: 5.2
11-12: 4.7
12-13: 4.1
getting a little better every year. If he can knock it down another notch next year, get down into the 3.5 range or so then he'll be largely over the worst of those problems. Dwight Howard is basically at 3.8. Guys like Hibbert and Perkins are worse hacks now than him. Its still a factor for him, but more often he is just a guy playing with foul trouble now rather than a guy being benched by it.
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Agree. His effort only paled a little in comparison with Douglas' effort.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
That could be. Either that or he's so worn out worrying about when he should keep Cousins in, or get him out, he just said, screw it, I'll keep him in as long as he's not gassed.
Maybe, just maybe Petrie has something left in the tank. We all chalked the trade up to the Maloofs being cheapskates and such, but perhaps he saw something in Douglas and Aldrich that we could use. I sure as heck never predicted they could make anywhere close to the impact they have so far.
Padrino
All-Star
anybody remember this guy?? as i recall he was also mildly impressive upon his arrival. that honeymoon didn't last too long, though, did it? while i think douglas and aldrich may prove to be useful contributors to this team, i wouldn't chalk it up to some last gasp of geoff petrie genius. he was asked by the maloofs to cut corners, financially, and he brought over a couple of utility players with expiring contracts in the process...
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
ehhh. blind luck
LOL. A high grade from low expectations.If the guy doesn't get kicked out, he at least gets a passing grade every time. Cousins really knows how to work the grading system.
So displaying growth and majority in the very areas where he has received the most criticism is a bad thing? Wow... You act as though the players gauge their performances to elicit better grades from Brickie. While I'm sure that's flattering to Brick, I'm pretty sure the Kings have more things to worry about than some fictional grade they're getting on a fan board.
I find myself tending to agree. I don't remember all the details, but weren't the Bobby Jackson and Doug Christie acquisitions viewed somewhat negatively at first blush?
And don't leave Patterson out of the equation. I like what he brings to the table.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Come on, VF21. One game and you're inferring growth and maturity? We've had several isolated games where Cousins has been a fine citizen. What could you infer from those games? That's he's maturing and evolving? No, just that it's the calm before the storm. The ONLY barometer that I have for Cousins is whether he actually acknowledges responsibility, expresses contrition, and takes the numerous offers that have been extended to get into therapy. If he doesn't go into therapy he hasn't even taken one step on the road to recovery. And even by taking that step, it could take years to take effect. But if he takes that one step, yes, I'll be willing to wait and hope. Until then, I'm not teathering myself to Cousins.
Oh, of course. Ppat VS Trob in the future is how the trade will likely be judged. As of now, Ppat is clearly a superior player but might change in 3 years. But if we end up getting 3 staples of our bench for Trob? Even if Trob develops to his fullest potential, 3 key rotational players for 1 star guy is a still a solid enough deal.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
All of which says much more about your own issues than Cousins. At a certain point insiting on suhc arbitrary self help book standard is saying more about your need for control, for Cousins to apologize to you than anything else. And its all irrelevant. All that matters is that Boogie finds his own way. And his own way doesn't have to be yours, mine, or anyone else's. We have HOFs who won multiple title rings wearing tutus and painted hair. The round mound of rebound was fat, engaged in brawls, picked up technical fouls almsot every game, fought with refs, players and anybody else, and made the HOF. Rasheed Wallace was a vile teammate...who went on to become an NBA champion. Zach Randolph is the inside power on one of the league's best teams after beating up teammates, running drug rings and all the rest. This isn't AA. Its just growing up. And everybody does it differently.
Cousins is ornery, a trait I know well. It scares the bejesus out of people because they can't control it or him. And they're right, they can't. He's not going to apologize on your terms, he's certainly not going to submit to a therapist, but that crap doesn't matter in the least so long as he improves on his own. Saying I don't care about signs he's improving on his own until he gives me 100 I will not throw spit balls in schools on the chalkboard is just formalism and confusing the process and the result. The process is irrelevant. It only exists as a guideline to get results. If the results come anyway, then the process does not matter. Its just there to make you feel like you have control over a situation that you do not.
Robinson may end up being a good player but he will not be a star. He doesn't have the overwhelming physical attributes or an immediately obvious skill and every star player in the NBA that I can think of has had one or both of those things from their first year on. I honestly think it's a stretch that he becomes a very good player though I do think his best case scenario is a poor mans' Karl Malone which also requires the right team framework for him to succeed.
As for what the Kings got, the issue I have is that Douglas and Aldrich are free agents after this season and Patterson is only signed through next year. This means that (1) Aldrich and Douglas are playing for a contract and thus the process of evaluating them over the handful of remaining games this season becomes even more difficult and (2) the decision of whether or not to bring them back will fall to new ownership when the tendency of most new owners is to clean house.
I don't want to spend much energy thinking about the possibility that my team will be in Seattle next year, but if that's the case I can all but guarantee that they wouldn't return, Salmons would be amnestied and Tyreke would probably be allowed to walk without any real effort to retain him. The Kings are surely being viewed as a little more than an expansion team by Hansen/Ballmer and I wouldn't even be surprised to see Cousins and Jimmer traded to simply blow things up and erase the connections to Sacramento as much as possible.
If it's Mastrov/Burkle? I have no idea. I'd like to think they'd take a more measured approach (though amnestying Salmons still sounds good to me) but the reality is still that the Kings have been a terrible team for the last few years and I doubt a ton of effort will be spent on trying to keep the roster together. Now, if they really catch fire to finish the season that may change but right now, it's far from a certainty that Douglas and Aldrich will be back next season which essentially makes the deal Robinson for Patterson - who might be gone after next season.
All of which once again underscores why it was so bad that Petrie whiffed on TRob. Lottery picks can be hugely talented pieces that are locked in to long term and relatively affordable deals.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
The process is very relevant. The process does allow one to infer whether there is reason to believe that Cousins will improve or not improve. Sure, Cousins could tomorrow or in several years from now go to a mountaintop in Tibet and have an epiphany that could change him overnight. He could be baptized in a religion, hit by a car and have a near death experience, he could experience an extreme loss to come to terms with life. But if I'm a fan or a GM, I can't wait for the improbable event to occur while I'm tethered to Cousins. I have to see some signs that the end of his madness is near. I do need to see that there is a process from which I can infer progress. Certainly I don't see those signs now. One game certainly doesn't provide it. It's been three years and we've seen that "body of work". I see no end in sight. The contrition has nothing to do with me needing control or wanting him to experience pain. Having contrition and accepting some responsibility and not playing the victim is the first step in the process. There is no way he can get better mentally or emotionally until he accepts that he does in fact have a problem. Until he does, I have to let him go.
If you cannot see the signs, it's because you're choosing not to see them. It's not the end of the journey but the steps along the way that mark progress. You have it set in your mind that he will never meet your standards. That's fine...for you. But for you to act as though he's not making any progress whatsoever is just pure denial.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
a) no you don't.
b) it hardly takes Tibetan epiphanies to grow up, just experience
c) you keep falling back into the same trap of looking for signs of pennance or submission as necessary events for Demarcus. And hey, it would be great if he figured it out at that level. But its not necessary. DeMarcus does not have to learn that he is wrong, he just has to learn what does and does not work. The mere fact that he is able to have good games, that he pulls back more on fouls now, that his only run in with a suspension since back before Christmas came when a guy took a dive at his knee, point to him figuring out what does and does not work.
A lot of college kids slouch through college in sandals and t-shirts. Then they graduate and hit job interviews and are expected to wear a suit and tie. In order for them to get those jobs, and fit in with the companies they don't have to come to beleive that college slob is a bad look and suit and ties rule. They can remain eternal children in their own mind, just so long as they understand the consequences of not wearing the suit and tie uniform. As long as they wear suits and not sandals, they do just fine. Its the same for DeMarcus. He's got maturity and anger issues galore. But he doesn't have to say to anyone oh I'm so sorry I need help. He just needs to use his intelligence to figure out the system. He can go home every night thinking the world is unfair and populated by 90% *******s. But what matters is him figuring out how to conduct himself to get the results he wants. If I'm marrying DeMarcus I want something more. I'm not. I'm asking him to perform a job. So long as he figures out how to do it well, his motivations for it are irrelevant.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Please educate me with specifics, "signs" as you call them. The generalities don't cut it for me. It's not enough to say that there a multitude of signs showing progress and that anyone should be able to see them because of course you did. I think you need to share some of your world vision with others. I'd like to hear the good news on those signs.
I did see in the last game Cousins taking a swing at a Clippers' player (fortunately he missed). That's a sign. I did see him yelling his head off at Tyreke as they were walking off the floor; there's another sign. I did see in the Bucks game the elbow to Dunleav's head; and I did see the embarrassed looking faces of his teamates on the bench in dealing with him. (I see that in virtually every game, by the way). More signs. And then there's Napiers' conversation yesterday in which he said there is no way that most of the Kings players don't want Cousins gone. They don't like playing with him. There's another sign. But that's the tip of the iceberg. There has been a three-year history of signs: disputes with assistant coaches, head coaches, fans, players, and announcers. All signs. And you're telling me that I don't see the signs?
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I have to really stop at #2. That's the key issue here: Is it just immaturity or it a more deep-seated psychological issue that causes his anger management issue? If it's just immaturity, I can subscribe to your position that just experience is need, just the push and the pull of life will eventually allow him to see "what works" as you say. And then once he sees what works, he will simply adopt what works. He will then think his way out of the problem. But I don't think it's just immaturity. I think there are some much deeper psychological issues with Cousins that prevent him from acting in accordance with his thinking. Therefore just the grinding of time and experience coupled with his intelligence isn't going to resolve the problem, certainly not in the next few years. Napier has been asked numerous times about this. Over and over he has said it's not a maturity issue; there are other things at work here. That's what I see. Therefore, I don't subscribe to your notion that simply some time and common life experience coupled with his intelligence will resolve things for Cousins. If you have deep-seated emotional issues, you typically can't get out of the emotional box you've put yourself in by just working it out with yourself.
Padrino
All-Star
aaaaaaand what exactly makes you (or grant effing napear, for that matter) qualified to assess the psychological makeup of an african american male in his early 20's?
it could be immaturity, it could be growing pains, it could be some sort of unresolved oedipal complex. we have no idea, and, as with most young people in their early 20's, they need time to work out for themselves who exactly they are and how exactly they want to approach the environment around them. sure, it's difficult to do on your own, but all the therapy and pills you shove down DMC's throat aren't going to help him arrive at an epiphany regarding his place in the nba. however, improved circumstances under new ownership, time, practice, and the building of trust with a revamped kings organization could very well stimulate the kind of personal growth that's necessary to demarcus' long term prospects in the nba. but the persistence of an untrustworthy and stagnant losing culture like he's in now? geezus, i'm just amazed things haven't been worse for demarcus, considering just how toxic this environment really is...
Glenn
Hall of Famer
When one becomes a psychiatrist, one is taught that one of the ethical standards is to never give psychiatric opinions about someone you haven't evaluated face to face. Anybody else can say what they wish but certainly I would hope that the analysis of a layman should be taken less seriously than that of a professional. Kingster, if you are a psychiatrist, you should not be saying what you are saying. If you are a layman, you are speculating. As a generality, people are different from the moment they are born. If you have kids, you will nod your head "yes." In the field of psychiatry, we have moved past Freud. That is not to say Freud was wrong but we are finding out that how we behave and react and perhaps think may be in our DNA. That's probably as likely as deep seated emotional problems if not more likely with most people who are troubled. And then, of course, both may be part of the problem with anybody.
When I was a kid, the popular question was, "is it nature or nurture?" With most people, it's both. We are born with our DNA controlling various parts of what people see from the outside and then we learn how to adjust to what nature has given us.
As a general rule, people with tempers mellow as they get older. The "why" is probably a mixture of adjustment to the temper and the rest may actually be a physical change of something we don't understand very well. I was always taught that much aberrant behavior like temper tends to calm itself by age 30. That's a horrible generalization but that's what I was taught. Throw in the complication of substance abuse with many people and you have a complex problem. There is no indication that Boogie has a substance abuse problem although I understand he drinks socially. For all we know, Boogie pops a stimulant or two before each game or drinks excessively. That would change every theory we have about him. I am not saying this is true but am mentioning it as a precautionary comment before we go off the deep end in analyzing him.
There is much about him that we cannot know without sitting down with him and evaluating him.
Pretty good move wasn't it? I know it's hard for anyone on this board to praise Petrie today but the simple fact is he deserves praise for this, certainly in my book. Come on world, give a little.
I was happy with the trade the day it was made. Excuse me if I don't care if TRob someday turns out to be a star. Kudos to Petrie on a good trade. I'm quite tired of adding more "in the future he might turn out great" guys. We've done it for Tyreke and Cuz and I'm getting more and more confident it will turn out well but enough for now. TRob was not playing well for us and I was pleased we moved him for value.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
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Kings Faithful
Starter
At least Tyreke created some contact. Paul wasn't even touched.
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