[Grades] Grades v. Cavs 2/19/12

Are you taller or shorter than Isiah Thomas?

  • Taller

    Votes: 53 69.7%
  • Shorter

    Votes: 12 15.8%
  • Same height

    Votes: 11 14.5%

  • Total voters
    76
  • Poll closed .

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
kiss.jpg


Looked like a foul to me BTW.

So we witness the possible beginning of Isaianity, and yet in the end, moving him into the lineup, and even into a starring role, didn't change the essential dynamic of the team. We still are young, still make too many errors, still can't shoot, and still don't get any push from our bench -- less of course with our best bench guy starting.

We could have course have won this if Reke has any sort of game, if Cousins does not commit dumb fouls, if Salmons could still hit an open corner three, or obviously if Reke does not commit the final brutal closing foul. But then again, there have been these kind of buts all year long. We need a bench, we need time and experience. Will we get them? Only the Geoff knows.

Boxscore

Evans ( D- ) -- sigh. Not good, and with the unfortunate capper at the end of the not goodness. ITs explosion left him relatively little to do in the early going. Again showing dribble penetration with the pass in mind, but we rarely got results out of it. The offense was just never there, and the disappointing part is that so many of them were layups that he should have made, and has made in the past. Also frustrating because the few things that did work were of the spectacular variety. Had a special 1 on 1 spin past Gee for his first points late in the first. Added a pure strength drive to close the quarter and give us a 31pt first, and briedly it looked like maybe he had just been laying back waiting for IT to get done toying wiht the Cavs before stepping up. Looked more active on defense to. But was not to be. Got out leading the break and threw a bad pass to Thronton down around his laces that lost the opportunity. Kept missing layups he should ahve had, and was having some obvious problems finishing over Casspi's length. Refs were doing him no favors though as he appeared to be hit a number of times and enver did get to the line for his trouble. Was maybe on his way to a "struggled, but fought through it and found a way to contribute" storyline as he came up with some big defensive plays in the 4th, iincluding a big momentum changing block on Casspi on the break, and saving a hoop at the 2:00 mark when IT got beat by Irving, and Reke slid over as the last line of defense under the hoop and knocked the ball away. But was not to be again, as the defensive play people are going to remember happened wiht half a second left in the game. Up 1 with 3 seconds to go we put our best perimeter defender on Irving, a guy who has won games for us in the past with big defensive plays and...well, he kinda blew it. The game I mean. Did not understand what he was even trying to do. We had the lead, 3 seconds to go, all you want to do is stay in front of the guy and get a hand up to challenge any jumper. Instead Reke went for one of those pokeaway steals, which are great if you're behind, but just and unnnecessary gamble in this situation. Sure enough, the refs called it, and bang, just like that Reke added goat horns on top of what was already a bad game. We won't discuss the perverseness of the cheer that went up in certain parts of Kingsland.

Thompson ( C ) -- not stopping Jamison early and just not able to stay with his mobility. Did the classic saavy pul the chair out maneuver against Tristan Thomspon. Redeveloped a bad case of the fumbleflips and was missing all his little follows and tips around the rim, and those were basically the only shots he was getting. Grabbed quite afew boards, but overall effectiveness was shaky, and swa many of his minutes distributed out between Hayes, Hickson, Donte and Salmons. That was not a typo.

Cousins ( B- ) -- despite big per miute numbers, disappointing overall as this game had to be seen as one DeMarcus should clearly have dominated in epic fashion. But he took himself out of it. Pikced up a couple of early loose fouls, including a silly full court dribble right into the chest of Hollins for his second foul. Had one nice move along the basseline after returning, but quickly pikced up his third and just never got into a rhythm. Shooting was off, and even his FTs suffered as he missed 3 of 4 there during one stretch. Finally began to get into his banging boarding rhythm in the third, but was never efficient. Took several good charges in the late 3rd, and added a nice job hitting Reke cutting along the baseline with a pass. Still was picking up dumb fouls though, as at least 3 of his 5 were just totally unnecessary limits on his game. Mental focus = ?. Came up huge int eh final minutes, only to have it all go for naught, and was not a happy camper leaving the court. Has to be watched.. At the 1:30 marknot only stole a ball in the open court from Irving, but then threw the 3/4 length pass to a streaking Thornton to get us the lead back. At the 10 second mark posted, used the attention he drew to find Salmons in the corner for what should have been the game winning three...only to see him again, AGAIN, brick one of those. Then pissed off, DeMarcus made the huge error of his own that could have lost it, as he fouled on the rebound scrum, thus sending the Cavs the other way to the line to take the lead with 6 seconds to go. And so came up hgue one more time with the game winning reverse layup over Jamison to win it at the 3 second mark....until the disastrous Reke foul at the end finally snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. (if you are counting BTW that means we basically made 3 game losing mistakes inthe final 10 seconds, Salmons missing the three, Cousins comitting the foul to give the Cavs the lead, and then Reke committing the foul to let them win it).

Thornton ( B ) -- one of those players that seemed largely forgotten about in the early going while IT was putting on a show. Hit his only three late in the first quarter as he and Reke seemed to step up a bit when Cousins left. But from that point on kind of played an ugle offensive gun, just standing around and chucking the ball up from three whenever he touched it, and mixing in some forces and selfish looking plays. This BTW would be somewhat consistent with his early season play -- I think there is a dynamic with Marcus where if he has any concerns about getting his shots or touches he will make sure he does. Came up strong on the glass down the stretch of the game, grabbing 6 4th quarter rebounds, but unable to come up with the big shot that would have put us over the top. I probably am not as high on this game as a flat B, but when you get 21 and 10 out of a guard, it deserves some recognition.

Thomas ( A+ ) -- the little man of the hour of course. Was amused by our little poll here, as 5'9" is the U.S. average height for a male, and I hink 5'4"/5'5" for a woman. Baskertball board yes, but I expectd the number of former players and number of women or more or less balance the poll. Methinks it might be a case of everybody being taller on the internet. :) In any case, ITmade this personal methinks, He chose the night and the opponent to make a statement, and on the ngiht he was simply bette rthan Irving. Got off to another blitz of a start, and while he was too small to stop Irving the other way in the first half, he appeared to considerably bother him. I have mentioned I thought the game became so much about Isiah that it took away from our normal main guys and none of them got into rhtyhms, and by that I mean that it seemed everything we ran or did abruptly became Isiah centric. Every shot, every pass, every play involved him. Much watching by others. But if you are going to have a player abruptly take over your offense, might as well make it one working on a remarkable triple double pace -- seriously, I doubt any Mr. Irrelevant (last pick in draft) has ever had one as a rookie, and doubt any 5'9" rookies ever have either. And other than a brief lull in the third, just kept on peppering in nice plays to get those numbers. Made nice passes to a cutting Cousins, and several to Donte out running the break, including a nifrty one through traffic as Donte cut that almost surprised his target. Split a double to set up Cousins. Got fouled shooting a three for a 4pt play. A couple of selfish little hero threes were the only major blemish. Well that and one strange play where Reke hit him on the break, and Isiah went down in a stragne heap apparently trying to do somethign fancy. Popped back up, so wasn't an injury, just was weird. Kept making big plays throughout the second half. Drew a foul on Omri early in the 3rd, missed the 2nd FT, then went flying in outhustling Omri and causing us to get the ball back off the missed FT. Was bothering Irving with his defensive quickness, hit a couple of big threes in the early 4th, and on a play that I don't understand how it isn't posted on youtube somewhere, made a holy **** play at the 4:00 mark of the 4th, bricking a three..then racing in, crashing into Tristan Thomas, snatchiing the rebouund and while still in midair touch passing it to Thornton for the layup under the hoop. I mean come on. A+.

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Bench

Hickson ( C- ) -- last time Cavs fans saw JJ, he was averaging 17pts 11reb after the All Star break for them last year. Now he coems back a year later as a scoreless deep bencher. Offensively impotent, although missed what would have been a big tip follow near the close of the first, and did a nice job closing out on the final shot of the quarter. Made a bad bad play running into Jamison at the three point line giving the Cavs a 4pt opportunity (the FT was missed) at the 5:30 mark.

Hayes ( C+ ) -- was being rebounded over, but stopped penetration by showing on a screen. Subtle thing that helped. Finally saw a good move on offense from him, with a quick spin out near the FT line and drive left. Of course then we had to go into the post to him and...no. Looked awkward in transtion defense and actually got me thinking if Smart's growing Nellie embellism might not have room for a lumbering stub when he's so focused on the runngin game. Took a key charge at the 6:00 mark, and in general stiff a modest effort, but making some of the little saavy plays that are supposed to let you forget he's a 6'6" center.

Fredette ( INC ) -- had to guard Omri when he came in and the Cavs knew it and kept on throwing the ball to Omri in the ridiculous mismatch. Jimmer just couldn't guard him,and I would imagine he was wondering why the heck we were insisting on having him try to muscle a guy who would have been a center where Jimmer was last year. Other side of the ball though was where there was no excuse. Just dribblign aroudn in cricles getting himself into trouble, looking for his shot everytime, and whateve he was doing was both a surprsie to his teammates and his coach, who pulled him pretty quickly. This is just pure speculation, but it almost looked like Jimmer came in and wanted to pick right up in the same ball and shot dominant role Isiah was in. Was not good. Back in as a shooter at the end of the game for one play, Cousins' woulda been game winning layup.
 
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Salmons ( C- ) -- in and imemdiately for some reason reluctant to close hard on Gee, so Gee hit the three on him. Ffinally got a little jumper. Some good finished on the break in the early
4th setting up a brilliant coaching maneuver that saw him basically playing PF for us in the gfinal minutes and missng two open corner threes that guys in the park can hit, including a backbreaking one at the 10 second mark as Cousins set him up perfectly, he htis we go up three and win...no. Not this Salmons, not this year.

Greene ( B- ) -- best quarter was the 2nd, when he ran the floor taking several nice passes from IT for dunks and layins (inclduign a big right handed dunk on Omri), and played better defense on Jamison than we had been getting out of JT. Less effective after half, and Smart, in all his Smartness, decide that Salmons would make a better "power forward" in the dying minutes than Donte. Having now once again proven himself more competent than the other SFs, and beign the logicval matchup vs. LeBron, Donte should be in line for a DNPCD next time out.
 
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Looked like a foul to me BTW.

So we witness the possible beginning of Isaianity, and yet in the end, moving him into the lineup, and even into a starring role, didn't change the essential dynamic of the team. We still are young, still make too many errors, still can't shoot, and still don't get any push from our bench -- less of course with our best bench guy starting.

We could have course have won this if Reke has any sort of game, if Cousins does not commit dumb fouls, if Salmons could still hit an open corner three, or obviously if Reke does not commit the final brutal closing foul. But then again, there have been these kind of buts all year long. We need a bench, we need time and experience. Will we get them? Only the Geoff knows.

Boxscore

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There was that ridiculously bad stint by Jimmer in the second quarter as well.

I think aside from Isaiah, everyone played their part in losing this game tonight.
 
Thinking about it, I'm not really sure why the hell we stuck JJ back in the game instead of Donte in the 4th quarter. Considering the fact that the Cavs were small balling all night and Jamison was running right by our full-grown big men all night.
 
IT was great tonight. Cousins was very good, and should have had the winner for us. That was until Reke f'd it up. Most refs call that foul, unless you're Lebron or Kobe.(will review later after Smart saying it was a bad call)

I will say though, Reke is not a sf. At all. Playing him there in any kind of a short to long term scenario is quite dumb. Balls out of his hands and we're taking away his strengths. Don't understand why Smart didn't run an IT/Reke backcourt at all. Instead just went small, with Reke at the 3 and even Salmons at the 4! WTF!?

Other thing I'd like to see, is that even though IT played great, I thought neither of Cousins/Reke/Thornton were in any kind of a rhythm tonight. IT set up guys well when driving and attacking. But I also think he shot a little too much, and dominated the ball to the point our big 3 didn't get in any kind of a rhythm. Cousins fought himself into the game on the offensive glass, and IT started looking for him more later on.

Have to find a way for IT to help the big 3, not hinder two of them. If Reke/Thornton are in any kind of a rhythm it never comes down to the last possession. We win by 5+.

Need more JT as well. Again, Smart F'd up the rotations. Just terrible. 5:30 point in the 4th we still have Reke/Cousins on the bench, and a JJ/Hayes frontline. Then he goes small and runs Salmons at the 4. Coach is killing us with this crap.
 
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Other thing I'd like to see, is that even though IT played great, I thought neither of Cousins/Reke/Thornton were in any kind of a rhythm tonight. IT set up guys well when driving and attacking. But I also think he shot a little too much, and dominated the ball to the point our big 3 didn't get in any kind of a rhythm.

Made that same point in the game thread at halftime. Felt like we were gaining an Isiah at the cost of the sparkle from our main guys.
 
Just want to say that I feel sorry for Hickson right now. He's playing terribly, but the guy is a much better player than he is showing. He clearly has no confidence right now and it's hurting him terribly. Hope he gets some confidence back and can contribute more than he has so far.
 
How much do us fans need to raise in order to buy out Salmons contract and have him sign a contract for a team overseas that has no opt-out for 10 years so there is no chance Kings ever think of signing him again?
 
How much do us fans need to raise in order to buy out Salmons contract and have him sign a contract for a team overseas that has no opt-out for 10 years so there is no chance Kings ever think of signing him again?

If every fan pays a dollar for every positive contribution John has made to the team, I believe he collectively owes us about $43 million.
 
IT is showing some great strides. I'm going to watch him a little more closely on the defensive end, but he's showing how nice of a player he can be.

What we need to figure out is if Tyreke and Thornton can coexist with one another.
 
Line-up i'd like to see next game:

IT
Tyreke
Greene
JT
Cousins

playing Reke out of position is killing us and his production.
 
Line-up i'd like to see next game:

IT
Tyreke
Greene
JT
Cousins

playing Reke out of position is killing us and his production.

Completely agree with that lineup. Smart isn't smart enough to try it though. Our starting lineup would function better, be better defensively, and Thornton would greatly improve our bench. Reke at the won't work. So if IT is the pg, Thornton is the odd man out.
 
IT was great tonight. Cousins was very good, and should have had the winner for us. That was until Reke f'd it up. Most refs call that foul, unless you're Lebron or Kobe.(will review later after Smart saying it was a bad call)

I will say though, Reke is not a sf. At all. Playing him there in any kind of a short to long term scenario is quite dumb. Balls out of his hands and we're taking away his strengths. Don't understand why Smart didn't run an IT/Reke backcourt at all. Instead just went small, with Reke at the 3 and even Salmons at the 4! WTF!?

Other thing I'd like to see, is that even though IT played great, I thought neither of Cousins/Reke/Thornton were in any kind of a rhythm tonight. IT set up guys well when driving and attacking. But I also think he shot a little too much, and dominated the ball to the point our big 3 didn't get in any kind of a rhythm. Cousins fought himself into the game on the offensive glass, and IT started looking for him more later on.

Have to find a way for IT to help the big 3, not hinder two of them. If Reke/Thornton are in any kind of a rhythm it never comes down to the last possession. We win by 5+.

Need more JT as well. Again, Smart F'd up the rotations. Just terrible. 5:30 point in the 4th we still have Reke/Cousins on the bench, and a JJ/Hayes frontline. Then he goes small and runs Salmons at the 4. Coach is killing us with this crap.

I have to disagree. If the ball is out of Tyreke's hands and in IT's hands, that's a very, very good thing. We've seen that repeatedly. Tyreke needs to have less of the ball in his hands. If it's a fast break situation and he has a path to the basket, then Tyreke is very good and should be encouraged to run. If not, the ball needs to get into IT's hands. The dribble, dribble, dribble drive to the right doesn't work for an offense. He doesn't have 1/2 of the creativity of IT with the ball. He's a slasher with no outside shot. You can't put the ball into the hands of a slasher with no outside shot and have him initiate the offense and win in the NBA. Tyreke must be a guy who is the recipient of the pass from IT in a good position on the floor where he can slash and finish or slash and pass. With the emergence of IT, who has basically TAKEN the job of initiator from Tyreke, Tyreke's role is going to change.
 
I have to disagree. If the ball is out of Tyreke's hands and in IT's hands, that's a very, very good thing. We've seen that repeatedly. Tyreke needs to have less of the ball in his hands. If it's a fast break situation and he has a path to the basket, then Tyreke is very good and should be encouraged to run. If not, the ball needs to get into IT's hands. The dribble, dribble, dribble drive to the right doesn't work for an offense. He doesn't have 1/2 of the creativity of IT with the ball. He's a slasher with no outside shot. You can't put the ball into the hands of a slasher with no outside shot and have him initiate the offense and win in the NBA. Tyreke must be a guy who is the recipient of the pass from IT in a good position on the floor where he can slash and finish or slash and pass. With the emergence of IT, who has basically TAKEN the job of initiator from Tyreke, Tyreke's role is going to change.

I'm not suggesting Reke needs to set the offense up every trip. Have IT do it. What I'm saying,and we saw it in the last game when IT started and Reke had 9 asts and wasn't forcing the issue at all, is that Reke needs to be much more involved. Can't have him stand in the corner. Against Det, IT ran the offense, and Reke was much more involved. He created a number of shots for others.

Where did I say Reke needs to be the initiator? The post right above your reply I said I fully agree with IT at the point and Reke at the 2.
 
Couldn't watch the game but was getting play by play updates via mobile. The first 15 seconds of this video describes what i was thinking down the stretch of this game. Also i could imagine this being Jim Gray and Tyreke postgame reactions. what a disaster even though i didn't watch the game, i almost want to watch the replay to see the collapse.

 
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Tyreke was hampered by how much IT was producing, but I thought IT actually helped Thornton's game .. and Cuz is Cuz, he'll play good with anyone. But I saw Thomas hit Thornton cutting multiple times. Thornton's ability to play off the ball along with his shot really makes him easy to play with ... Its Tyreke I worry about when Isaiah is the starter. He's the one who needs the ball in his hands, and he's the one who's getting the bigger man to defend on the other end.

Still though .. we have trotted out this lineup for two straight games and have lost two straight games we should have won. Sure, the competition hasn't been great, but the lack of blowouts is progress. At any rate it is something we need to stick with for a while.
 
Tyreke was hampered by how much IT was producing, but I thought IT actually helped Thornton's game .. and Cuz is Cuz, he'll play good with anyone. But I saw Thomas hit Thornton cutting multiple times. Thornton's ability to play off the ball along with his shot really makes him easy to play with ... Its Tyreke I worry about when Isaiah is the starter. He's the one who needs the ball in his hands, and he's the one who's getting the bigger man to defend on the other end.

Still though .. we have trotted out this lineup for two straight games and have lost two straight games we should have won. Sure, the competition hasn't been great, but the lack of blowouts is progress. At any rate it is something we need to stick with for a while.

Not sure if I'm too happy with having a line up featuring Reke as SF in the long run though. At that point, you're really kind of turning him into a less crazy Ron Artest without a jump shot.
 
Having Reke at SF is stupid and take the ball out of Reke's hand is stupid as well.

When is the last time we won a game when Reke score less than 20pt?
 
More players were getting good shots and Cousins was involved through the whole game. Team Assist to TO ratio was much better in both IT games. The Kings also totally controlled the pace and style of the game. So no, not really just like the team's other losses. With as poorly as Reke was playing, the Kings normally get blown out on the road in a game like this. Instead, they had the game won with .4 seconds left.
 
Thornton for a sf... I'd like to have Marcus come off the bench and start IT and Reke in the backcourt but I think egos come into play. If he can't be instant offense off the bench then maybe we can move him for a sf. Tyreke and IT in the backcourt is the way to go I believe.
 
Line-up i'd like to see next game:

IT
Tyreke
Greene
JT
Cousins

playing Reke out of position is killing us and his production.
This occurred to me tonight also. Let Thornton come off the bench. He has got to shoot lights out to play for me. Otherwise he doesn't offer me and the team much.
 
Yeah his 4 minutes and 1/3 shooting really hurt the team

No, it's his slowness, lack of confidence with the ball, his getting trapped on offense to easily, his lack of quick on defense. Some of these things are just in his capabilities meaning he have a longer and slower road to NBA success. I haven't given up but I see tough hurdles for him. Good luck, Jimmer.
 
Close call tonight but I think we small-balled too much in the fourth even if the Cavs were already countering well. Not sure if Reke don't know we don't have a foul to give as it looks like and intentional foul to me.

Anyway, IMO this team badly needs a home game or 2. Aside from the NY game, we're definitely balling on road games. But the basketball gods just couldn't give us that little lift to close games.

Cuz has been awesome. I think Chuck Hayes' value on this team may have been overlooked by many by his poor performance. But I could see a lot of DMC's improvement coming from the Chuckwagon's playbook. Check out those good screens and how well he's taking charges down low.

IT starting is big draft steal but one of our 3 wings should go to the bench. We just can't small ball for freaking 30 minutes. And I believe we have made a record with the NBA's smallest 4 lineup.

Anyway, we should be able to beat Miami. LOL.
 
If there's one thing to be taken from this game, its that Omri Casspi was definitely not our answer at SF. Talk about terrible shooting.
 
I certainly don't think this was Cousins' better games but still he essentially had a 20-10 night and hit what should have been the game winner. Our expectations of him are rising. Absent a few fouls and adding 10 minutes to his playing time and the game would not have been lost.
 
I certainly don't think this was Cousins' better games but still he essentially had a 20-10 night and hit what should have been the game winner. Our expectations of him are rising. Absent a few fouls and adding 10 minutes to his playing time and the game would not have been lost.

I was thinking the same thing. I thought Cousins really didn't have his A game tonight and still put up pretty damn impressive numbers
 
I certainly don't think this was Cousins' better games but still he essentially had a 20-10 night and hit what should have been the game winner. Our expectations of him are rising. Absent a few fouls and adding 10 minutes to his playing time and the game would not have been lost.

At this point, it's really not a question of whether or not he'll be the top center in the game but rather when he will be
 
It's got to the point that every time he gets the ball in the post I'm confident he'll score, last season you could always feel a turnover coming.

Now if he could just stop them crazy dribbles from the top of the key. I know he fancies himself a bit of a point guard but come on lol.
 
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