[Grades] Grades v. Bucks 11/5/2016

[bajaden]

I've finally reached the point, it's time to trade cousins. It's time to officially blow this thing up. However, as has been stated already, how can you blow things up and actually work towards a better team if we are the 49ers of the NBA? If Vivek turned into mark Davis and decided to actually fire everyone and get a knowledgeable GM, take a step back and let that GM build his FO the way he wants to then maybe kings fans would have some hope. I'm not seeing even a sliver of hope ANYWHERE because I think Kings fans know what we have in Vivek. It starts at the top and Vivek does not know what he is doing. I fear he can't even blow this poopoo storm up properly.

I think what your suggesting is exactly what Vivek did. So now you want him to blow it up again, for the third time in three years? Brilliant. Vlade has been the GM for one year, and he's a failure. How long with the next GM last. A year and a half? I'm sorry, but you people are nuts. Do you honestly think that your can turn around a team that's been going in the wrong direction for ten years, in one year? If Vlade has a long term plan, how would we know if we don't give him the chance to implement it. Isn't it possible that some of the moves he's made in the short term that don't make a lot of sense, might make sense in a couple of years?

It's obvious to me that Vlade has set up the team for some serious moves next summer. Possibly more permanent moves. Joerger has stated that this season isn't so much about winning as it is changing the culture of the team. That statement lends itself toward the long term future. People want to win now, but they want to blow it up as well. Those two things don't go together. I'm sorry if Vlade can't make a trade that fits your timeline. I'm sure that Vlade could have traded Gay a month ago if the wanted to, but it probably wouldn't have been the trade he was looking for. Amazingly, other teams don't always want to give up what you want. They actually want to screw you if they can, and of course you want to do the same to them. Hell, the way Gay has been playing, his trade value will go up to a contending team that wants an immediate impact.

Make no mistake. I'm not happy with how the team has been playing, but I'd rather be patient for a while and see what happens. It's way too early in the season to start yelling that the Sky is Falling!

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Amazingly most hated IT on this board, it hurt letting him walk for nothing. Kings can't make that mistake again if Gay is going to walk you need to get something for him. Obviously same goes for Cousins.

gotta give it up to the gerbil for giving him and tyreke away. what did we get out of them? 2nd rounders, trade exceptions and trade throw ins?

 

[bajaden]

If we trade Cousins, I feel like it has to be at the end of the year. My reasoning? Unless we trade him to a team like Boston, Cousins will help any team's current record. For ex, let's say the Pelicans are 4-30 by trade deadline. They're willing to give us Buddy Hield, 2017, and 2018 1st round picks. By the time the season ends, they could very well be at 45 wins...making that pick invaluable.

As sucky as the Nets are, they're actually 2-4. The Wizards, Sixers, Timberwolves, Mavericks, Pelicans, and Kings are actually worse. There's also teams like Denver, Phoenix, and Orlando who could end up as bottom teams too. There's no guarantee that the Nets pick becomes a bottom 3.

This is why I think it makes much more sense to trade Cuz at the end of the season. We could trade Gay, McLemore, Collison, and Casspi at trade deadline though.

Well first off, I don't want to trade Cousins. However, I do think he would have more value at the trade deadline than at the end of the season. You only get him for one year at the end of the season and then you have to resign him. The longer you can have him in your organization, the better the chances of resigning him. That's assuming that everything goes well once you have him. So the question is, who do you trade him to? Well for starters, you try to move him out of your conference so you don't have to play against him more than twice a year, and he doesn't improve a team you contending against in your division.

However, if the best deal is from a team in your division, then I think you have to bite the bullet and go for it. If you trade him to a contending team, which, in all likelyhood would have the best chance of resigning Cousins, then their draft pick is already going to be somewhere in the bottom third of the draft, unless they happen to hold another teams draft pick, like the Celtics do. Ideally, you would want to get back a very talented player, or players, along with some future draft picks. A team like the Celtics would make a likely trading partner. They do have some young talent, and they do have some draft picks belonging to some cellar dwellers. And in their case, a player like Cousins might be the player to put them in the eastern conference finals with the Cav's.

Now I'm not suggesting that the Kings trade Cousins to the Celtics. I'm just using them as an example, and in their case, they would much rather get Cousins sooner than later.

 

[pshn80]

Calm down. We got our first look at the rookies and I wasn't disappointed. I predict we will win a game sooner or later. Iin the meantime we will see how Joerger and the players handle adversity and who might step up. I'm here for Kings' basketball. Wins are a bonus.

 

[fansinceday1]

I think what your suggesting is exactly what Vivek did. So now you want him to blow it up again, for the third time in three years? Brilliant. Vlade has been the GM for one year, and he's a failure. How long with the next GM last. A year and a half? I'm sorry, but you people are nuts. Do you honestly think that your can turn around a team that's been going in the wrong direction for ten years, in one year? If Vlade has a long term plan, how would we know if we don't give him the chance to implement it. Isn't it possible that some of the moves he's made in the short term that don't make a lot of sense, might make sense in a couple of years?

It's obvious to me that Vlade has set up the team for some serious moves next summer. Possibly more permanent moves. Joerger has stated that this season isn't so much about winning as it is changing the culture of the team. That statement lends itself toward the long term future. People want to win now, but they want to blow it up as well. Those two things don't go together. I'm sorry if Vlade can't make a trade that fits your timeline. I'm sure that Vlade could have traded Gay a month ago if the wanted to, but it probably wouldn't have been the trade he was looking for. Amazingly, other teams don't always want to give up what you want. They actually want to screw you if they can, and of course you want to do the same to them. Hell, the way Gay has been playing, his trade value will go up to a contending team that wants an immediate impact.

Make no mistake. I'm not happy with how the team has been playing, but I'd rather be patient for a while and see what happens. It's way too early in the season to start yelling that the Sky is Falling!

The papageorgio pick alone was enough to kill whatever confidence I had in vlade. It was one of the dumbest picks I've ever seen. Ill bet you a dinner at mortons that vlades pick will go down as the single biggest bust of his short career.

"So now you want him to blow it up again, for the third time in three years?"

Serious? You consider what we've done the last 3 years blowing it up and starting over?
The kings have yet to start over. We've been treading water for how many years now? A change in philosophy starts at the very top. The best example of "blowing it up" was what the oakland raiders did 5 or 6 years ago. Al Davis died and Mark Davis took over. The Raiders had a reputation worse than the kings. They were a joke of a franchise, a laughing stock of a sports franchise. Mark Davis wanted to change that. The owner fired EVERYONE. Then he went out and did a thorough search for a qualified professional with a good reputation. They went to the then Super Bowl champs GB Packers and hired a guy who was well thought of and had a good nose for evaluating players. Once Mark Davis hired his GM he took a step back and let his GM do his thing. From the top down it was a complete overhaul of how the team operated. THAT is a complete tear down. And boy has it paid off.

 

[Bricklayer]

It was worse than the fact that he got scored on so quickly:

He also fouled Henson for the And-1.

And he basically looked like he was rooted in his spot and time stood still while Henson (not known for quickness AFAIK) spun around Papa like while he was standing still.
Then Papa thought it was a good idea to slap Henson on the side while laying it in.

It was one of the more embarrassing (and horrifying, from a lack-of-talent-revealing angle) plays I've seen in awhile.

To be as fair as I fell like being to a pick I ave never believed in: it was his first play in the NBA. Things happen in that situation that may not with some seasoning.

 

[Bricklayer]

And I will again say: everybody needs to calm the hell down. Panic is a sign of weakness. Its humiliating. Once people get you afraid, you are liable to do any stupid thing. Demagogues love the stuff. Fear that is.

We are MONTHS from having to make any calls about Boogie, or even Rudy if we don't want to. Months. Two weeks in and this place is this:

Nothing is being won or lost today. Nothing is being decided today (besides what to do with Farmar/Lawson I suppose). We're not even 10% into the season.

 

[Fora Dragi]

And I will again say: everybody needs to calm the hell down. Panic is a sign of weakness. Its humiliating. Once people get you afraid, you are liable to do any stupid thing. Demagogues love the stuff. Fear that is.

We are MONTHS from having to make any calls about Boogie, or even Rudy if we don't want to. Months. Two weeks in and this place is this:

Nothing is being won or lost today. Nothing is being decided today (besides what to do with Farmar/Lawson I suppose). We're not even 10% into the season.

Every game counts. So yah the playoffs are being won and lost today. Panic well no, but let's start exploring trade options. Yes even for cuz. Let's start addressing gaps. Send papa to the d league and pick up somebody who can contribute.

 

[fansinceday1]

I don't even care about this season anymore. Im thinking long term and I think it starts with a qualified GM who knows how to evaluate talent. Until we get someone like that we're gonna see more papageorgio type pics.

With regards to boogie and rudy, they're as good as gone. I think only making the playoffs might have convinced them otherwise.

 

[206Fan]

Well first off, I don't want to trade Cousins. However, I do think he would have more value at the trade deadline than at the end of the season. You only get him for one year at the end of the season and then you have to resign him. The longer you can have him in your organization, the better the chances of resigning him. That's assuming that everything goes well once you have him. So the question is, who do you trade him to? Well for starters, you try to move him out of your conference so you don't have to play against him more than twice a year, and he doesn't improve a team you contending against in your division.

However, if the best deal is from a team in your division, then I think you have to bite the bullet and go for it. If you trade him to a contending team, which, in all likelyhood would have the best chance of resigning Cousins, then their draft pick is already going to be somewhere in the bottom third of the draft, unless they happen to hold another teams draft pick, like the Celtics do. Ideally, you would want to get back a very talented player, or players, along with some future draft picks. A team like the Celtics would make a likely trading partner. They do have some young talent, and they do have some draft picks belonging to some cellar dwellers. And in their case, a player like Cousins might be the player to put them in the eastern conference finals with the Cav's.

Now I'm not suggesting that the Kings trade Cousins to the Celtics. I'm just using them as an example, and in their case, they would much rather get Cousins sooner than later.

His value would definitely be higher at deadline than it would at the end of the season. My biggest dilemma does come down to that team's specific draft pick.

Unless we can get really good and promising players back, the Kings would definitely have to focus on the draft instead. The best candidate for young players would be a team like the Lakers, Timberwolves, and 76ers. Maybe only the T-Wolves would actually want to give up their young core for Cousins. It's really unfortunate that the Kings put us in this position...again.

I seriously can't go another year of half-sucking, ending up with the 8th pick, and repeating. Hopefully the Kevin Love trade helps us out a lot.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't even care about this season anymore. Im thinking long term and I think it starts with a qualified GM who knows how to evaluate talent. Until we get someone like that we're gonna see more papageorgio type pics.

With regards to boogie and rudy, they're as good as gone. I think only making the playoffs might have convinced them otherwise.

And indeed, it is past tense already for those POs.

Just like it was for Portland when they started 4-9 last season. Those guys should have just packed it up and traded Lillard. They were screwed. And us...I mean, we already have TWO more losses than the current #8 seed. In November.

 

[fansinceday1]

And indeed, it is past tense already for those POs.

Just like it was for Portland when they started 4-9 last season. Those guys should have just packed it up and traded Lillard. They were screwed. And us...I mean, we already have TWO more losses than the current #8 seed. In November.

did you forget the (sarc)?

Your not saying last years trailblazers are comparable to this years kings squad are you?
Cause our talent is very comparable to the trailblazers..........

 

[Bricklayer]

did you forget the (sarc)?

Your not saying last years trailblazers are comparable to this years kings squad are you?
Cause our talent is very comparable to the trailblazers..........

Because it indeed is, yes.

Let's go with the 10 men in the Blazers rotation last year, vs. 10 of our peeps closely comparable:

Lillard --> Cousins
McCollum --> Gay
Crabbe --> Collison
Aminu --> Barnes
Plumlee --> Koufos
Harkless --> Omri
Vonleh --> WCS
Leonard, Davis, Henderson --> Lawson, Afllalo, McLemore, Temple, Tolliver

 

[jcwkings]

No, most didn't "hate" IT. Right or wrong, I know I and a number of others didn't see him as a starting PG with us and he made it abundantly clear he did not want to come off the bench.

Well thats just absurd at this point.

 

[VF21]

Well thats just absurd at this point.

"At this point" is irrelevant. The issue I was addressing was the common misstatement about how many of us "hated" Isaiah. It simply wasn't true then and it isn't true now.

 

[jcwkings]

"At this point" is irrelevant. The issue I was addressing was the common misstatement about how many of us "hated" Isaiah. It simply wasn't true then and it isn't true now.

Ehh I remember a different story, he was viewed as a cancer by the Kingsfans.com elders and their followers. Now he averages 25 and 7 and is a great leader for a top 4 team in the East. We start a guy on vet minimum non guaranteed deal who has known alcohol problems and a non PG as his backup. Yeah we could have surely used Isaiah Thomas over the last few years and his measly $7 million a year contract(who some on here thought he was not worthy of lol). Jesus Christ this franchise.

 

[KingsFanGER]

Because it indeed is, yes.

Let's go with the 10 men in the Blazers rotation last year, vs. 10 of our peeps closely comparable:

Lillard --> Cousins
McCollum --> Gay
Crabbe --> Collison
Aminu --> Barnes
Plumlee --> Koufos
Harkless --> Omri
Vonleh --> WCS
Leonard, Davis, Henderson --> Lawson, Afllalo, McLemore, Temple, Tolliver

Interesting analysis. I completely disagree. And you somehow chose to ignore the overall roster composition and fit of certain players sharing minutes.

 

[KingsFanGER]

Ehh I remember a different story, he was viewed as a cancer by the Kingsfans.com elders and their followers. Now he averages 25 and 7 and is a great leader for a top 4 team in the East. We start a guy on vet minimum non guaranteed deal who has known alcohol problems and a non PG as his backup. Yeah we could have surely used Isaiah Thomas over the last few years and his measly $7 million a year contract(who some on here thought he was not worthy of lol). Jesus Christ this franchise.

To be fair we have to admit, that in Boston IT has more control over the Ball and Stevens actually got him to a point, where he is hustling on D.
That's what playing for a well orchestrated organisation does.

 

[VF21]

Ehh I remember a different story, he was viewed as a cancer by the Kingsfans.com elders and their followers. Now he averages 25 and 7 and is a great leader for a top 4 team in the East. We start a guy on vet minimum non guaranteed deal who has known alcohol problems and a non PG as his backup. Yeah we could have surely used Isaiah Thomas over the last few years and his measly $7 million a year contract(who some on here thought he was not worthy of lol). Jesus Christ this franchise.

Whatever. I wish Isaiah Thomas well. I don't follow his career any more than I follow the career of any other former King. If others do, that's fine.

 

[hrdboild]

But Tyreke cannot seem to stay healthy. Look at what New Orleans is dealing with right now. Knowing the luck of our franchise, you really think we'd have been better off?

As far as Whiteside goes, he showed less than nothing until he went overseas. There's no reason at all to believe he might have improved here.

Whiteside needed to mature and evidently that wasn't going to happen in Sacramento, but watching him flat out dominate right now while we're still looking for a big man to play next to Cousins is painful. Myles Turner hurts more though because he was right there for the taking and we picked Cauley-Stein instead. And there was Drummond before that. We've had so many chances to build a dominant front line and we keep whiffing.

Tyreke can't stay healthy but he's far more talented than all of the guards we have right now. And he's at least fun to watch when he is healthy. You may not miss him... as I recall you didn't seem mad when he did leave... but he's a dynamic scoring guard in a league that is currently dominated by dynamic scoring guards. And he actually played well with Cousins when he wasn't being told to go hide in a corner somewhere and watch Marcus Thornton chuck.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Yep. It's sickening. He's averaging over 25/7 and shooting a great % from the floor. He would be perfect on our team.

Thomas is perfect on the team he's on. He would not be perfect here. The beauty of the way the Celtics are built right now is that it allows Thomas to play exactly the way he's always wanted to play, like the second coming of Allen Iverson. And the way that team is built is not dissimilar to how the 2000-01 76ers were built: Thomas takes all the shots he wants, and the other twelve guys more or less get theirs off the glass, or in transition, or wait in the corner for kickouts. That was never going to be how we play here.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I never hated IT. I just thought his shot selection was hurting the team and we'd be better off with a distributor at PG...

The "Everybody hated IT" meme is a borderline offensive mischaracterization. Even Kings Fans who didn't want Thomas here stipulated that he was a good player. But he wasn't the optimum fit as a starter, and he wasn't willing to come off the bench.

How many elite offensive big men are there in the NBA? Five? Six? Okay, now how many of them play with shoot-first point guards? The only high-level offensive center besides Cousins who plays with a shoot-first point guard is Brook Lopez... what's their record looking like, by the way? In fact, Cousins and Lopez have something in common, in that they're both centers who aren't super-effective in the pick and roll, particularly in the way of catching lobs, which is probably the one thing you have to be able to do in order to maximize your effectiveness playing with a shoot-first point guard. What the Kings need, in the way of a point guard to play with Cousins, is somebody who can make an entry pass. And, maybe even more importantly, won't completely go away from him if the first post-up doesn't go as planned, will instead be patient, and let him repost for another good shot. In Cousins' career, we've only actually had three point guards that were any good at that: Rajon Rondo, Andre Miller and Grevis Vasquez. Two of which we let walk (granted, one of them was ancient), and the third we traded.

 

[VF21]

...Tyreke can't stay healthy...

He could be the GOAT but if he cannot stay healthy he's of no use. And, as I said, if he's having trouble staying healthy in New Orleans, the sardonic side of my nature can't help but think he would have snapped his leg off like a twig at some point if he had stayed here. We have a history of bizarre injuries (Cisco (twice), Greg Ostertag, Brad Miller are just the first three that come to mind).

 

[kingsboi]

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/personal-fouls-per-game

That has to be a mistake or not up to date. Kings 26th in fouls? come on now

 

[gil renard]

Somebody needs to start the 2017 Draft Lottery thread.

Pull out the scouting reports on Euros who are projected to go in the second round...that's who we'll use our lotto pick on.

 

[Warhawk]

You got the like just for the Aliens reference. Well played.

 

[ppine]

I will not give up on the Kings, but watching some other good teams like the Celtics, Bulls, and the Thunder do a lot for my mental health.