Any poll I create is done to gauge how OUR membership feels, nothing more or less. I often use actual quotes as questions to try and maintain a sense of neutrality in the creation of the poll. Same goes for the responses.
To add to this, most here are looking at the consensus of the draft pundits and media people. Yet it was pointed out on the Ringer podcast that the same was not true of NBA teams. There were a lot of teams that had Doncic in the 5 - 7 range on their boards and one apparently had him around 12th. Obviously, this doesn't make them right either but should dissuade fans from thinking that the Kings passed on a better prospect. I wanted them to take Doncic, but always felt that Bagley had the higher upside.
The Clipps, today, are if anything on the way down. At very best they are in the stage of stasis going nowhere. The Kings are on the way up. That's the comparison. Not comparing today to yesteryear.
I can guarantee you that teams Do not make their big boards based on what other teams will or won't do.Teams that had him that low were the ones hoping the dumbass in front of them would pass on him
Why? I don't see any possibility that Vlade thinks Bagley "is a three." I'm equally confident that Vlade thinks Bagley "can guard some threes," as most of us believe.I'm not saying that Bagley should be the three but I truly believe that Vlade Divac believes it is a possibility.
Why? I don't see any possibility that Vlade thinks Bagley "is a three." I'm equally confident that Vlade thinks Bagley "can guard some threes," as most of us believe.
I can guarantee you that teams Do not make their big boards based on what other teams will or won't do.
Kings are not on the way up until they prove otherwise. They've cracked 30 wins once and that was with Cousins, Gay and Rondo. They are as irrelevant as the Clippers are, both franchises aren't exactly staples of winning other than a number of years and then returning back to the cellar for longer than not.
To add to this, most here are looking at the consensus of the draft pundits and media people. Yet it was pointed out on the Ringer podcast that the same was not true of NBA teams. There were a lot of teams that had Doncic in the 5 - 7 range on their boards and one apparently had him around 12th. Obviously, this doesn't make them right either but should dissuade fans from thinking that the Kings passed on a better prospect. I wanted them to take Doncic, but always felt that Bagley had the higher upside.
My take: Vlade hasn't had a terrible off-season, nor a very good one. Objectively he is one of if not the least qualified/worst GM's in the league. I have next to no confidence in him being able to competently negotiate trades, have a full grasp of the CBA and salary cap.He was a very good player so I have confidence in him being able to recognize talent, in general. So at this point as a Kings fan you have to hope Vlade has stumbled his way onto a good team moving forward. There is a chance he has, but ultimately I would feel better as a fan if the team had owners and management I feel confidence in, and right now that is not the case.
We'll see how it plays but I would contend those arguing now for the dismissal of Vlade would have more likely gotten their wish if the player they wanted was picked. No one has argued to my satisfaction that drafting Luka would have been a vote of NON-CONFIDENCE for Fox. You make that vote and things can unravel. You believe in Fox or you don't. I believe in him. I think he is going to be a star and spectacular. I think our front office shares this view and proceeded accordingly on draft day. But this was more than fit, it was best player as Vlade said in his press conference.
If you take Luka you invest in #5 and #2 pick in successive drafts competing for playmaking responsibilities. I easily envision a scenario where Fox is off in the corner watching Luka and vice versa. The finishers are not there and roles ill-defined. I do NOT see the prudence of taking the ball out of the fastest guy in the NBA on verge of stardom for a Euro who had trouble getting by his man. I am not disputing Luka's court vision and passing instincts. I just don't want to run offense through 50-60% of the time which is what will require to optimize his skills. (In Dallas it can work because DSJ is a more aggressive scorer)
If Fox is not as good as you think, then you are going to get fired anyway. So let him be who you think he can be without undermining him one year into his NBA career. Luka would still have become a possibility if he was an instinctive scorer and knockdown shooter who could give you 20 PPG. But he is not this type of player. Then ask is he a tireless worker? Debatable. Is he a quick footed defender? Debatable. So what is the appeal beyond the wry smile and movie star looks? Don't ask the Hawks or Grizzlies because they passed too! This is what the Vlade critics wanted!
Even if Bagley does not become an All-Star he is going to give you 16/8 pretty regularly and pretty soon. He is a worker and sprinter and competitor with enough fundamentals to produce. Of course the hope is he is more than this. He already showed in summer league he can defend better than detractors who said "a terrible defender with no awareness" and other hyperbolic comments. The main point I want to make however is drafting Luka would have created more problems than it solved. No one can say so with certainty but the probabilities of the draft decision are in Vlade's favor, and this is all you can ask.
Maybe Vlade knew if we drafted Doncic and still sucked that would have been for sure his demise?
As much as I like to see players do fundamental things like boxing out, it has become a lost art for most of the NBA. CWebb made it through his whole career without boxing out. Vlade usually only did it in the 4th quarter. It is usually the blue collar guys like Pollard that box out (it's what keeps them in the league).Maybe he didn't draft Doncic because he is VERY similar to and has a very similar skillset as Bogi.
Maybe he wanted a big that rebounds and plays with a passion. Anybody who takes time away from Willie is a positive for me.
Maybe a young core that includes Giles and Bagley is much better than one that includes Skal or Willie.
Skal and Willie do not box out. How could a team move forward with bigs that either can't or won't do a fundamental part of their position?
Maybe we should stop beating a dead horse.
I really hope the reason we passed on Luka wasnt that "it would've been a vote of non confidence for Fox". First of all, while they both can be primary ball handlers, Lukas size would've allowed them to be on the court at the same time. You can never have too many guys on the floor that can create offense.
In the Nba, the most valuable skill is to being able to create offense for yourself and others. Teams are rarely succesful if you only have one guy that can do that at a high level. You would need a Lebron or Harden type of player to do that.
If Fox is ever going to be nearly as good as you say, he will have to learn to shoot threes. If he can do that, he can be effective off the ball with shooting and cutting.
Also the game is 48minutes long and season is 82 games long. You cant have one player constantly generating majority of the offense while still being able to work on defense. It doesnt really work that way. You need to be able to share the load some. You also ideally would want high level playmaking on the floor the whole game. You can do that if you have two great creators and stagger them. Both plays 35 minutes so they would be playing together 22minutes but the team would have good creator on the floor for 48 minutes.
I dont want to say anything more to that than I would never want my GM making decisions based on that type of thinking. Fear of getting fired is not a good place to make decisions.
First you need to decide wheter we can draw conclusions from the summer league or not. But since you did, based on summer league, his 16/8 would have very little value in winning. Im going to give him some time to show his abilities in real games but after his bad summer league its silly to nitpick one positive thing and ignore all the bad. Also Bagley didnt show much awareness per se. He showed he could use his athletisism in certain situations.
And Im not even commenting on wether Bagley was a good pick or not. We'll see how Doncic does, how Bagley does, how JJJ does ect . Im saying that the argument for passing on Luka couldnt/shouldnt possibly be that we already have Fox. It makes very little sence and goes against on how these great teams have been built.
Maybe he didn't draft Doncic because he is VERY similar to and has a very similar skillset as Bogi.
Maybe he wanted a big that rebounds and plays with a passion. Anybody who takes time away from Willie is a positive for me.
Maybe a young core that includes Giles and Bagley is much better than one that includes Skal or Willie.
Skal and Willie do not box out. How could a team move forward with bigs that either can't or won't do a fundamental part of their position?
Maybe we should stop beating a dead horse.
You're right in that Bagley didn't box out much. I didn't see him box out consistently until the last game he played.Bagley didn’t rebound or play with passion in SL. He didn’t show me motor by making no impact in certain games and I don’t like his lack of critical nature in post games. He rubbed me wrong completely
But it’s SL. We can debate til the cows come home how important it is. To me it’s a first impression on a date sort of thing. There is a lot of subjective intuition, but a lot of the same people who want to brush SL under the rug would’ve been championing him had he played as expected for his pick slot.
Surprised to see carmichaelDave voted a C. Wonder what his reasons were
Vlade told you (and all of us) why we passed on Luka. In his assessment Bagley was the BETTER player AND fit. He went all in. This comment will validate his analytical prowess or open him to further criticism and mockery. Right or wrong I respect Vlade for being unequivocal. He did not say "it was a close call" or "it came down the wire" or it was "a decision of much consternation and agony". He didn't say one complimentary comment about Luka in his post draft press conference. I like it. He said Bagley was our guy and it was an EASY decision. He pushed in all his chips on a player he believes in. Good for you, Vlade! This earns my respect for a GM I have been highly critical of. To validate his opinion Bagley therefore has to clearly be the more impactful and effective player.
You have to redefine the word primary to say that Fox and Luka could have been primary ball handlers. This is not how it works. You are primary or secondary or roles tend to get confused. Can Luka breakdown his man with the ball in his hands? He couldn't in Europe so how is he going to do it in NBA vs better athletes with more size and mobility? He's a good player but not as transcendent as the fan boys want to assert. I do NOT want to give the ball to Luka and take the ball out of Fox's hand when the latter player is more formidable to drive by his man and create havoc. Fox is a force in the making. He can make 32-36% of 3s this year after 31% last year and thats enough to keep defenders honest. This is not a difficult determination to make. Fox is unbelievable when he is at his best. Luka is not going to take your breath away like Fox can.
Of course it is nice to have players who can create shots for themselves and others. That is who the Warriors are after all and their results speak for themselves. But if you believe in Fox why do you want to take the ball out of his hands? Why do you want him off the ball?
Boggy can create. He's really good in the half court picking apart defenses as you have probably noticed. His assist rate was in the 80% percentile for guards. Giles can pass. Bjelica and Yogi can pass.
What you need to complement this group is finishers. A hyper-athletic and hyper-active MBIII is a finisher. His numbers as 18 year olf in the ACC were record breaking. Is that not good enough?! As a lefty dominant with evolving post game and face-up game, he is not flawless or finished product but just turning 19 years old why should he be?!
This was our front office's thought process I am certain. It is sound. It may prove wrong but the odds are in their (our) favor. I could go on an on but I will resist that urge. I am not even saying Bagley is a superstar or Luka is going to disappoint. I don't think that. But I think based on risk / reward analysis the correct decision was made. I am not ashamed to say that I was higher on Mario H before his draft than Luka. I loved Mario. I liked Luka. Mario could shoot and jump out of the gym. Then he struggled mightily in Orlando before finally starting to put it together a little last year. Results in Europe can be deceptive if you are not able to handle the rigors of a major step up in quickness and strength in the opposition. This is challenge that Luka will face. Good luck to him. I like the odds Bagley responds with more force and effectiveness. I think Vlade will be vindicated. Good times are ahead.
PG: Fox / Yogi / Mason.
SG: Bogi / Buddy / Ben
SF: Beli / JJ/Shumpert
PF: Bagley / Skal/ Zbo
C: WCS/ Giles / KK
I dont see the minutes Crunch, If you take the 10 players and leave ALL of the 3rd stringers out of the rotation
you can play all of the 10 in a Fast pace game. My only concern might be Bjelica as to whether he can keep up with the other 9
if he gets gassed early maybe use JJ and or shump to rest him.
I think my grade is still B , Vlade has put a Fast team together,improved our 3 pt shooting, a 3 deep roster,stashing cap space
If we show improvement, maybe a disgruntled Elite Player might see us as a destination
We will have enough cap space/enders to make a deal work