Grade the Kings off-season so far
- Thread starter VF21
- Start date
- Status
Kings are not on the way up until they prove otherwise. They've cracked 30 wins once and that was with Cousins, Gay and Rondo. They are as irrelevant as the Clippers are, both franchises aren't exactly staples of winning other than a number of years and then returning back to the cellar for longer than not.
"Possibility". Plus what is the difference in being slotted to guard the three and to play the three? unless you are thinking that Professor Big Shots and he switch up O and D (Bagley = Offensive 4, Defensive 3; Bjelly Offensive 3, Defensive 4). I could see that working.
the three has been a big question mark for me and other fans on this forum. I think Kings fans may have to wait until the preseason to get a good gauge on what Joerger & Vlade are thinking about lineups
the three has been a big question mark for me and other fans on this forum. I think Kings fans may have to wait until the preseason to get a good gauge on what Joerger & Vlade are thinking about lineups
My take: Vlade hasn't had a terrible off-season, nor a very good one. Objectively he is one of if not the least qualified/worst GM's in the league. I have next to no confidence in him being able to competently negotiate trades, have a full grasp of the CBA and salary cap.He was a very good player so I have confidence in him being able to recognize talent, in general. So at this point as a Kings fan you have to hope Vlade has stumbled his way onto a good team moving forward. There is a chance he has, but ultimately I would feel better as a fan if the team had owners and management I feel confidence in, and right now that is not the case.
And to add to your post, it's not an issue of whether the Kings took the "best" available. Just as Mitchell proved last year, there can always be a guy lower in the draft who is exceedingly good. The real issue is whether Bagley is going to be very good or not. Being "the best available" is a faux test that is meant to fail and to incite condemnation.
We'll see how it plays but I would contend those arguing now for the dismissal of Vlade would have more likely gotten their wish if the player they wanted was picked. No one has argued to my satisfaction that drafting Luka would have been a vote of NON-CONFIDENCE for Fox. You make that vote and things can unravel. You believe in Fox or you don't. I believe in him. I think he is going to be a star and spectacular. I think our front office shares this view and proceeded accordingly on draft day. But this was more than fit, it was best player as Vlade said in his press conference.
If you take Luka you invest in #5 and #2 pick in successive drafts competing for playmaking responsibilities. I easily envision a scenario where Fox is off in the corner watching Luka and vice versa. The finishers are not there and roles ill-defined. I do NOT see the prudence of taking the ball out of the fastest guy in the NBA on verge of stardom for a Euro who had trouble getting by his man. I am not disputing Luka's court vision and passing instincts. I just don't want to run offense through 50-60% of the time which is what will require to optimize his skills. (In Dallas it can work because DSJ is a more aggressive scorer)
If Fox is not as good as you think, then you are going to get fired anyway. So let him be who you think he can be without undermining him one year into his NBA career. Luka would still have become a possibility if he was an instinctive scorer and knockdown shooter who could give you 20 PPG. But he is not this type of player. Then ask is he a tireless worker? Debatable. Is he a quick footed defender? Debatable. So what is the appeal beyond the wry smile and movie star looks? Don't ask the Hawks or Grizzlies because they passed too! This is what the Vlade critics wanted!
Even if Bagley does not become an All-Star he is going to give you 16/8 pretty regularly and pretty soon. He is a worker and sprinter and competitor with enough fundamentals to produce. Of course the hope is he is more than this. He already showed in summer league he can defend better than detractors who said "a terrible defender with no awareness" and other hyperbolic comments. The main point I want to make however is drafting Luka would have created more problems than it solved. No one can say so with certainty but the probabilities of the draft decision are in Vlade's favor, and this is all you can ask.
If you take Luka you invest in #5 and #2 pick in successive drafts competing for playmaking responsibilities. I easily envision a scenario where Fox is off in the corner watching Luka and vice versa. The finishers are not there and roles ill-defined. I do NOT see the prudence of taking the ball out of the fastest guy in the NBA on verge of stardom for a Euro who had trouble getting by his man. I am not disputing Luka's court vision and passing instincts. I just don't want to run offense through 50-60% of the time which is what will require to optimize his skills. (In Dallas it can work because DSJ is a more aggressive scorer)
If Fox is not as good as you think, then you are going to get fired anyway. So let him be who you think he can be without undermining him one year into his NBA career. Luka would still have become a possibility if he was an instinctive scorer and knockdown shooter who could give you 20 PPG. But he is not this type of player. Then ask is he a tireless worker? Debatable. Is he a quick footed defender? Debatable. So what is the appeal beyond the wry smile and movie star looks? Don't ask the Hawks or Grizzlies because they passed too! This is what the Vlade critics wanted!
Even if Bagley does not become an All-Star he is going to give you 16/8 pretty regularly and pretty soon. He is a worker and sprinter and competitor with enough fundamentals to produce. Of course the hope is he is more than this. He already showed in summer league he can defend better than detractors who said "a terrible defender with no awareness" and other hyperbolic comments. The main point I want to make however is drafting Luka would have created more problems than it solved. No one can say so with certainty but the probabilities of the draft decision are in Vlade's favor, and this is all you can ask.
I am as optimistic as they come but I went with a C for this offseason.
Draft- We know its early yada yada yada but Bagley looked like less of a prospect than a good number of guys in SL. It could mean nothing or it could be a sign of things to come. Based on this alone I would say the draft was a net negative.
Free agency
Lavine- I can certainly understand the Kings rolling the dice on talent but I don't believe one trick ponies who have a rough injury history are the best gambles. Obviously no damage done with the Bulls matching.
Yogi and Bjelica- Low risk team friendly deals with upside. Yogi will push Mason and can shoot and hopefully be a leader on the second unit and Bjelica brings BBIQ and good 3 point shooting. Love it.
If Bagley proves me wrong this grade could turn into an A
Draft- We know its early yada yada yada but Bagley looked like less of a prospect than a good number of guys in SL. It could mean nothing or it could be a sign of things to come. Based on this alone I would say the draft was a net negative.
Free agency
Lavine- I can certainly understand the Kings rolling the dice on talent but I don't believe one trick ponies who have a rough injury history are the best gambles. Obviously no damage done with the Bulls matching.
Yogi and Bjelica- Low risk team friendly deals with upside. Yogi will push Mason and can shoot and hopefully be a leader on the second unit and Bjelica brings BBIQ and good 3 point shooting. Love it.
If Bagley proves me wrong this grade could turn into an A
I really hope the reason we passed on Luka wasnt that "it would've been a vote of non confidence for Fox". First of all, while they both can be primary ball handlers, Lukas size would've allowed them to be on the court at the same time. You can never have too many guys on the floor that can create offense.
In the Nba, the most valuable skill is to being able to create offense for yourself and others. Teams are rarely succesful if you only have one guy that can do that at a high level. You would need a Lebron or Harden type of player to do that.
If Fox is ever going to be nearly as good as you say, he will have to learn to shoot threes. If he can do that, he can be effective off the ball with shooting and cutting.
Also the game is 48minutes long and season is 82 games long. You cant have one player constantly generating majority of the offense while still being able to work on defense. It doesnt really work that way. You need to be able to share the load some. You also ideally would want high level playmaking on the floor the whole game. You can do that if you have two great creators and stagger them. Both plays 35 minutes so they would be playing together 22minutes but the team would have good creator on the floor for 48 minutes.
I dont want to say anything more to that than I would never want my GM making decisions based on that type of thinking. Fear of getting fired is not a good place to make decisions.
First you need to decide wheter we can draw conclusions from the summer league or not. But since you did, based on summer league, his 16/8 would have very little value in winning. Im going to give him some time to show his abilities in real games but after his bad summer league its silly to nitpick one positive thing and ignore all the bad. Also Bagley didnt show much awareness per se. He showed he could use his athletisism in certain situations.
And Im not even commenting on wether Bagley was a good pick or not. We'll see how Doncic does, how Bagley does, how JJJ does ect . Im saying that the argument for passing on Luka couldnt/shouldnt possibly be that we already have Fox. It makes very little sence and goes against on how these great teams have been built.
In the Nba, the most valuable skill is to being able to create offense for yourself and others. Teams are rarely succesful if you only have one guy that can do that at a high level. You would need a Lebron or Harden type of player to do that.
If Fox is ever going to be nearly as good as you say, he will have to learn to shoot threes. If he can do that, he can be effective off the ball with shooting and cutting.
Also the game is 48minutes long and season is 82 games long. You cant have one player constantly generating majority of the offense while still being able to work on defense. It doesnt really work that way. You need to be able to share the load some. You also ideally would want high level playmaking on the floor the whole game. You can do that if you have two great creators and stagger them. Both plays 35 minutes so they would be playing together 22minutes but the team would have good creator on the floor for 48 minutes.
I dont want to say anything more to that than I would never want my GM making decisions based on that type of thinking. Fear of getting fired is not a good place to make decisions.
First you need to decide wheter we can draw conclusions from the summer league or not. But since you did, based on summer league, his 16/8 would have very little value in winning. Im going to give him some time to show his abilities in real games but after his bad summer league its silly to nitpick one positive thing and ignore all the bad. Also Bagley didnt show much awareness per se. He showed he could use his athletisism in certain situations.
And Im not even commenting on wether Bagley was a good pick or not. We'll see how Doncic does, how Bagley does, how JJJ does ect . Im saying that the argument for passing on Luka couldnt/shouldnt possibly be that we already have Fox. It makes very little sence and goes against on how these great teams have been built.
Maybe he didn't draft Doncic because he is VERY similar to and has a very similar skillset as Bogi.
Maybe he wanted a big that rebounds and plays with a passion. Anybody who takes time away from Willie is a positive for me.
Maybe a young core that includes Giles and Bagley is much better than one that includes Skal or Willie.
Skal and Willie do not box out. How could a team move forward with bigs that either can't or won't do a fundamental part of their position?
Maybe we should stop beating a dead horse.
Maybe he wanted a big that rebounds and plays with a passion. Anybody who takes time away from Willie is a positive for me.
Maybe a young core that includes Giles and Bagley is much better than one that includes Skal or Willie.
Skal and Willie do not box out. How could a team move forward with bigs that either can't or won't do a fundamental part of their position?
Maybe we should stop beating a dead horse.
Last edited:
As much as I like to see players do fundamental things like boxing out, it has become a lost art for most of the NBA. CWebb made it through his whole career without boxing out. Vlade usually only did it in the 4th quarter. It is usually the blue collar guys like Pollard that box out (it's what keeps them in the league).
Vlade told you (and all of us) why we passed on Luka. In his assessment Bagley was the BETTER player AND fit. He went all in. This comment will validate his analytical prowess or open him to further criticism and mockery. Right or wrong I respect Vlade for being unequivocal. He did not say "it was a close call" or "it came down the wire" or it was "a decision of much consternation and agony". He didn't say one complimentary comment about Luka in his post draft press conference. I like it. He said Bagley was our guy and it was an EASY decision. He pushed in all his chips on a player he believes in. Good for you, Vlade! This earns my respect for a GM I have been highly critical of. To validate his opinion Bagley therefore has to clearly be the more impactful and effective player.
You have to redefine the word primary to say that Fox and Luka could have been primary ball handlers. This is not how it works. You are primary or secondary or roles tend to get confused. Can Luka breakdown his man with the ball in his hands? He couldn't in Europe so how is he going to do it in NBA vs better athletes with more size and mobility? He's a good player but not as transcendent as the fan boys want to assert. I do NOT want to give the ball to Luka and take the ball out of Fox's hand when the latter player is more formidable to drive by his man and create havoc. Fox is a force in the making. He can make 32-36% of 3s this year after 31% last year and thats enough to keep defenders honest. This is not a difficult determination to make. Fox is unbelievable when he is at his best. Luka is not going to take your breath away like Fox can.
Of course it is nice to have players who can create shots for themselves and others. That is who the Warriors are after all and their results speak for themselves. But if you believe in Fox why do you want to take the ball out of his hands? Why do you want him off the ball? Boggy can create. He's really good in the half court picking apart defenses as you have probably noticed. His assist rate was in the 80% percentile for guards. Giles can pass. Bjelica and Yogi can pass. What you need to complement this group is finishers. A hyper-athletic and hyper-active MBIII is a finisher. His numbers as 18 year olf in the ACC were record breaking. Is that not good enough?! As a lefty dominant with evolving post game and face-up game, he is not flawless or finished product but just turning 19 years old why should he be?!
This was our front office's thought process I am certain. It is sound. It may prove wrong but the odds are in their (our) favor. I could go on an on but I will resist that urge. I am not even saying Bagley is a superstar or Luka is going to disappoint. I don't think that. But I think based on risk / reward analysis the correct decision was made. I am not ashamed to say that I was higher on Mario H before his draft than Luka. I loved Mario. I liked Luka. Mario could shoot and jump out of the gym. Then he struggled mightily in Orlando before finally starting to put it together a little last year. Results in Europe can be deceptive if you are not able to handle the rigors of a major step up in quickness and strength in the opposition. This is challenge that Luka will face. Good luck to him. I like the odds Bagley responds with more force and effectiveness. I think Vlade will be vindicated. Good times are ahead.
You have to redefine the word primary to say that Fox and Luka could have been primary ball handlers. This is not how it works. You are primary or secondary or roles tend to get confused. Can Luka breakdown his man with the ball in his hands? He couldn't in Europe so how is he going to do it in NBA vs better athletes with more size and mobility? He's a good player but not as transcendent as the fan boys want to assert. I do NOT want to give the ball to Luka and take the ball out of Fox's hand when the latter player is more formidable to drive by his man and create havoc. Fox is a force in the making. He can make 32-36% of 3s this year after 31% last year and thats enough to keep defenders honest. This is not a difficult determination to make. Fox is unbelievable when he is at his best. Luka is not going to take your breath away like Fox can.
Of course it is nice to have players who can create shots for themselves and others. That is who the Warriors are after all and their results speak for themselves. But if you believe in Fox why do you want to take the ball out of his hands? Why do you want him off the ball? Boggy can create. He's really good in the half court picking apart defenses as you have probably noticed. His assist rate was in the 80% percentile for guards. Giles can pass. Bjelica and Yogi can pass. What you need to complement this group is finishers. A hyper-athletic and hyper-active MBIII is a finisher. His numbers as 18 year olf in the ACC were record breaking. Is that not good enough?! As a lefty dominant with evolving post game and face-up game, he is not flawless or finished product but just turning 19 years old why should he be?!
This was our front office's thought process I am certain. It is sound. It may prove wrong but the odds are in their (our) favor. I could go on an on but I will resist that urge. I am not even saying Bagley is a superstar or Luka is going to disappoint. I don't think that. But I think based on risk / reward analysis the correct decision was made. I am not ashamed to say that I was higher on Mario H before his draft than Luka. I loved Mario. I liked Luka. Mario could shoot and jump out of the gym. Then he struggled mightily in Orlando before finally starting to put it together a little last year. Results in Europe can be deceptive if you are not able to handle the rigors of a major step up in quickness and strength in the opposition. This is challenge that Luka will face. Good luck to him. I like the odds Bagley responds with more force and effectiveness. I think Vlade will be vindicated. Good times are ahead.
Bagley didn’t rebound or play with passion in SL. He didn’t show me motor by making no impact in certain games and I don’t like his lack of critical nature in post games. He rubbed me wrong completely
But it’s SL. We can debate til the cows come home how important it is. To me it’s a first impression on a date sort of thing. There is a lot of subjective intuition, but a lot of the same people who want to brush SL under the rug would’ve been championing him had he played as expected for his pick slot.
But it’s SL. We can debate til the cows come home how important it is. To me it’s a first impression on a date sort of thing. There is a lot of subjective intuition, but a lot of the same people who want to brush SL under the rug would’ve been championing him had he played as expected for his pick slot.
You're right in that Bagley didn't box out much. I didn't see him box out consistently until the last game he played.
I too was pretty uninspired by Bagley's play, but I feel there is much more to look forward to this upcoming season. I bet Fox and Giles turn some heads this year, add their play to the consistent play of Bogi and Buddy and we could really see the core starting to take shape.
I think next season is when Bagley will really start to shine and thts okay.
I too was pretty uninspired by Bagley's play, but I feel there is much more to look forward to this upcoming season. I bet Fox and Giles turn some heads this year, add their play to the consistent play of Bogi and Buddy and we could really see the core starting to take shape.
I think next season is when Bagley will really start to shine and thts okay.
My grade is a solid B. I wanted a legit SF as much as anyone and was also convinced Mario would be a King and fit in fine. Oh well.
I'm very excited about about Harry and Marvin. If they both stay healthy in short time I believe they will wreak havoc as modern bigs and make fans question the small ball fasination.
Love the Yogi signing, I have never been this confident in our PG rotation. Vlade seems to have grown up as a GM, I dont expect mega wins but he's brought us respectability and it will pay dividends.
I'm very excited about about Harry and Marvin. If they both stay healthy in short time I believe they will wreak havoc as modern bigs and make fans question the small ball fasination.
Love the Yogi signing, I have never been this confident in our PG rotation. Vlade seems to have grown up as a GM, I dont expect mega wins but he's brought us respectability and it will pay dividends.
I'm voting D
Was previously waiting for cap space to be spent or used for assets.
No mistakes with pay gets a C
Not happy with draft lowers it. Although trading one second for two may pay dividends later. No asset for cap or a valuable player somehow with all the cap drops it even more.
Yogi was a good deal.
Was previously waiting for cap space to be spent or used for assets.
No mistakes with pay gets a C
Not happy with draft lowers it. Although trading one second for two may pay dividends later. No asset for cap or a valuable player somehow with all the cap drops it even more.
Yogi was a good deal.
I pretty much agree with this. He bet on Bagley and doubled down. We'll see how it turns out.
What I meant was that they can both handle a role of being the primary ball handler. If they are on the same team they could've been the primary guy when the other is resting. When playing at the same time they could've shared the dutie. And as I said previously, you cant have only one player creating the offense. Maybe Lebron can but even he had to rest on defense in order to do that. Even if you think Fox is superior to Luka in creating, you still have to have other creators on the floor with Fox.
Actually neither of Fox or Luka is proven Nba offensive creator. But for the sake of argument lets assume thet both are.
Great offenses have multiple good offensive creators. Also as I said above, you cant have only one guy creating offense. That guy needs to be off the ball either way.
None of those guys you listed are succesful playoff caliber offensive creators. At least yet. Bogdanovic looks like he can be the sixth man/3rd option on a good team. Have to see more what Bjelica can do with more ball on his hands.
Bagley is good enough when he shows he is good enough. He didnt show that in summer league but hopefully he shows it in real games.
That couldnt have been the thought process for the FO, thats my whole point. If we want to be a championship caliber team, we would need another offensive creator either way. Our thought process might have been that Bagley was the best player available and thats ok. Saying we passed on Luka because we already have one good offensive creator is not possible. Or it would be very dumb reason to do so.
What I meant was that they can both handle a role of being the primary ball handler. If they are on the same team they could've been the primary guy when the other is resting. When playing at the same time they could've shared the dutie. And as I said previously, you cant have only one player creating the offense. Maybe Lebron can but even he had to rest on defense in order to do that. Even if you think Fox is superior to Luka in creating, you still have to have other creators on the floor with Fox.
Actually neither of Fox or Luka is proven Nba offensive creator. But for the sake of argument lets assume thet both are.
Great offenses have multiple good offensive creators. Also as I said above, you cant have only one guy creating offense. That guy needs to be off the ball either way.
None of those guys you listed are succesful playoff caliber offensive creators. At least yet. Bogdanovic looks like he can be the sixth man/3rd option on a good team. Have to see more what Bjelica can do with more ball on his hands.
Bagley is good enough when he shows he is good enough. He didnt show that in summer league but hopefully he shows it in real games.
That couldnt have been the thought process for the FO, thats my whole point. If we want to be a championship caliber team, we would need another offensive creator either way. Our thought process might have been that Bagley was the best player available and thats ok. Saying we passed on Luka because we already have one good offensive creator is not possible. Or it would be very dumb reason to do so.
I gave it a C-.
The Yogi Ferrell signing is a solid C for me. It's a move that a GM should make. Not one they should be praised for. Same goes for the Temple trade.
Bjelica is a head scratcher for me. Now there is going to be a huge minutes crunch and I have a feeling it's going to irritate a lot of fans over the course of the season. Joerger is going to play Bjelica a good deal of minutes because he's a veteran and he's a solid player. Who is going to lose their minutes because of it? You have JJ, Shumpert, Skal, Bagley, Giles, Buddy and Bogie who could all be affected by it. I don't think anyone would really care if Shumpert didn't get any minutes but it's concerning for the rest of the guys.
It's going to be irritating if Buddy or Bogie only get 25mpg next year and Skal is completely out of the lineup so we can play a 30 year old at the 3 and 4. I think Bjelica is a solid player and I think he will be good for Fox but it's a head scratcher of a signing for me with the way the roster is constructed. He's going to be gone or declining before a proverbial playoff run happens.
The Yogi Ferrell signing is a solid C for me. It's a move that a GM should make. Not one they should be praised for. Same goes for the Temple trade.
Bjelica is a head scratcher for me. Now there is going to be a huge minutes crunch and I have a feeling it's going to irritate a lot of fans over the course of the season. Joerger is going to play Bjelica a good deal of minutes because he's a veteran and he's a solid player. Who is going to lose their minutes because of it? You have JJ, Shumpert, Skal, Bagley, Giles, Buddy and Bogie who could all be affected by it. I don't think anyone would really care if Shumpert didn't get any minutes but it's concerning for the rest of the guys.
It's going to be irritating if Buddy or Bogie only get 25mpg next year and Skal is completely out of the lineup so we can play a 30 year old at the 3 and 4. I think Bjelica is a solid player and I think he will be good for Fox but it's a head scratcher of a signing for me with the way the roster is constructed. He's going to be gone or declining before a proverbial playoff run happens.
PG: Fox / Yogi / Mason.
SG: Bogi / Buddy / Ben
SF: Beli / JJ/Shumpert
PF: Bagley / Skal/ Zbo
C: WCS/ Giles / KK
I dont see the minutes Crunch, If you take the 10 players and leave ALL of the 3rd stringers out of the rotation
you can play all of the 10 in a Fast pace game. My only concern might be Bjelica as to whether he can keep up with the other 9
if he gets gassed early maybe use JJ and or shump to rest him.
I think my grade is still B , Vlade has put a Fast team together,improved our 3 pt shooting, a 3 deep roster,stashing cap space
If we show improvement, maybe a disgruntled Elite Player might see us as a destination
We will have enough cap space/enders to make a deal work
SG: Bogi / Buddy / Ben
SF: Beli / JJ/Shumpert
PF: Bagley / Skal/ Zbo
C: WCS/ Giles / KK
I dont see the minutes Crunch, If you take the 10 players and leave ALL of the 3rd stringers out of the rotation
you can play all of the 10 in a Fast pace game. My only concern might be Bjelica as to whether he can keep up with the other 9
if he gets gassed early maybe use JJ and or shump to rest him.
I think my grade is still B , Vlade has put a Fast team together,improved our 3 pt shooting, a 3 deep roster,stashing cap space
If we show improvement, maybe a disgruntled Elite Player might see us as a destination
We will have enough cap space/enders to make a deal work
Buddy is our best player and if Bogie averages 32mpg, that leaves 16mpg off the bench for Hield. The plan should have been to allow Hield or Bogie to play the backup SF minutes so they can both be on the court for 30mpg minimum.
I can almost guarantee you that KK and/or ZBo will get minutes and now you have a crunch where one of the guys I mentioned won't get very many minutes and it'll likely be Skal or JJ because Bjelica will be spending plenty of time at the 4. It's way too early to put those guys on the back burner. Especially during a season where they aren't expected to win more than 30 games.
I can almost guarantee you that KK and/or ZBo will get minutes and now you have a crunch where one of the guys I mentioned won't get very many minutes and it'll likely be Skal or JJ because Bjelica will be spending plenty of time at the 4. It's way too early to put those guys on the back burner. Especially during a season where they aren't expected to win more than 30 games.
- Status