Georgios Papagiannis
- Thread starter beb0p
- Start date
I wanted Baldwin as well and by watching him at Vanderbilt I even thought he was worthy of our 8 pick.
But the way the draft went I wonder whether teams had more information on him whether it was injury or being a bad lockerrom guy (there were some rumors pre draft that this might be the case):
8 Kings - Need a PG and had him in for a workout. Trade down.
10 Bucks - Are not sold on MCW. Need shooting and like length. Pick Maker.
12 Hawks - Just traded away their starting PG. Draft Prince.
13 Kings - Pass again. Draft Papagiannis
14 Bulls - Just traded away their starting PG. Pick Valentin.
15 Celtics - Need shooting. Pick Yabusele.
All those teams could have used his skillset but decided to go in a different direction with guys I wouldn't consider being BPA.
But the way the draft went I wonder whether teams had more information on him whether it was injury or being a bad lockerrom guy (there were some rumors pre draft that this might be the case):
8 Kings - Need a PG and had him in for a workout. Trade down.
10 Bucks - Are not sold on MCW. Need shooting and like length. Pick Maker.
12 Hawks - Just traded away their starting PG. Draft Prince.
13 Kings - Pass again. Draft Papagiannis
14 Bulls - Just traded away their starting PG. Pick Valentin.
15 Celtics - Need shooting. Pick Yabusele.
All those teams could have used his skillset but decided to go in a different direction with guys I wouldn't consider being BPA.
Realistically, if he becomes a solid backup, it's not a bad pick. You always draft and hope for more, but the standard isn't historically that high.
As far as fitting with cuz, that's a problem that we hope will happen, because that means he becomes a player of value.
I don't see wcs type minutes this year, maybe by year 3 he can be in contention for real minutes.
As far as fitting with cuz, that's a problem that we hope will happen, because that means he becomes a player of value.
I don't see wcs type minutes this year, maybe by year 3 he can be in contention for real minutes.
I've been down on this pick, but just heard someone talking about Steven Adams with the Thunder and how he's only 22 and what a great piece he's become for them. Big George is only 18. He's far from a finished product. For someone his size, he's got a ton of potential. I don't think it's a pick for now... but there are 4 years before he's 22. What can the organization do with that potential in 4 years is the key. In the past we've wasted that potential, so a lot rides on this staff and this GM to follow through, but Skal and Malachi looking like they can contribute earlier than expected sure relieves some of the pressure there.
He's clearly not ready now, but we won't know about this pick for 2-3 years. I see the potential.
He's clearly not ready now, but we won't know about this pick for 2-3 years. I see the potential.
I like Baldwin and he does have a compact, consistent shot so I think in time he'll adjust and be back to being a good shooter.
But he's not a great penetrating guard. Great in transition but in the half court he's very upright with his dribble and doesn't have much in the way of advanced dribbling beyond a basic crossover. That's compounded by his difficulty finishing when he does attack the basket. That lack of shiftiness with the ball is the primary difference between he and Dunn. Well that and Baldwin's tendency to drift for stretches.
I was (and still am) high on Baldwin as a 3&D PG but I think he'll be best playing off another major offensive threat. A playmaking SG like Harden or a dominant big like Boogie. Where he's not asked to be a real creator.
But he's not a great penetrating guard. Great in transition but in the half court he's very upright with his dribble and doesn't have much in the way of advanced dribbling beyond a basic crossover. That's compounded by his difficulty finishing when he does attack the basket. That lack of shiftiness with the ball is the primary difference between he and Dunn. Well that and Baldwin's tendency to drift for stretches.
I was (and still am) high on Baldwin as a 3&D PG but I think he'll be best playing off another major offensive threat. A playmaking SG like Harden or a dominant big like Boogie. Where he's not asked to be a real creator.
It remains to be seen if anyone picked after 13 becomes a star but right now I'm okay with the gamble on Georgios, especially with Skal looking so good.
But the difference between Papagiannis and Adams is that Adams always had that rugby mentality. He's a very physical presence. I'm not seeing any of that from Papagiannis so far.
I don't know that he'll be the kind of interior defender or rebounder (not to mention enforcer) that Adams has become for OKC. The ceiling for GP looks to be more on the Rik Smits, Brook Lopez side of things. Maybe I can squint and see Marc Gasol but he needs to embrace a more physical game to ever evolve in that direction
But the difference between Papagiannis and Adams is that Adams always had that rugby mentality. He's a very physical presence. I'm not seeing any of that from Papagiannis so far.
I don't know that he'll be the kind of interior defender or rebounder (not to mention enforcer) that Adams has become for OKC. The ceiling for GP looks to be more on the Rik Smits, Brook Lopez side of things. Maybe I can squint and see Marc Gasol but he needs to embrace a more physical game to ever evolve in that direction
We just have absolutely no evidence of the sort of skills that a Smitts, Lopez or Gaosl had. I mean basically none.
And the lack of physicality is, as I have noted, my real concern. You don't learn that. Not even at 18. That's something you just are. You either like to bang or you don't. You either are aggressive or you aren't. Now just because of size/relative coordination it doesn't mean Papa can't eventually become an ok rebounder or defender. But its not in the blood, and even at 19 it should be. You know who those guys are from an early age. People don't learn that. They learn how to shoot or not. Not how to bang or not. Papa's physicality is "vague" at best. He looks like he's generally trying to avoid contact. And sometimes that makes all the difference. Now IF he had an advanced skillset, you tolerate that. If he had post moves, if he had a jumper, then that's his focus and he is just a make do player on the other end. But without those apparent skills, being a physical factor is almost a must, and he's not. Leaving him basically as just a tall guy who does exactly what the tapes showed him doing -- set a big pick and roll to the hoop for soft catches and finishes. Even if we'd seen that in Vegas that's not enough to actually matter.
And the lack of physicality is, as I have noted, my real concern. You don't learn that. Not even at 18. That's something you just are. You either like to bang or you don't. You either are aggressive or you aren't. Now just because of size/relative coordination it doesn't mean Papa can't eventually become an ok rebounder or defender. But its not in the blood, and even at 19 it should be. You know who those guys are from an early age. People don't learn that. They learn how to shoot or not. Not how to bang or not. Papa's physicality is "vague" at best. He looks like he's generally trying to avoid contact. And sometimes that makes all the difference. Now IF he had an advanced skillset, you tolerate that. If he had post moves, if he had a jumper, then that's his focus and he is just a make do player on the other end. But without those apparent skills, being a physical factor is almost a must, and he's not. Leaving him basically as just a tall guy who does exactly what the tapes showed him doing -- set a big pick and roll to the hoop for soft catches and finishes. Even if we'd seen that in Vegas that's not enough to actually matter.
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He reminds of Smits in the sense of his height and more importantly length, his soft hands, ability to change ends well for his size, the flashes of a jump shot we've seen and of course in the lackluster rebounding, not being quick laterally and the overall finesse game.
He has a long way to go but Smits was also a freshman at Marist at the same age.
Papagiannis scares me as I never like prospects that enter the league without a translatable skill that they can fall back on. But if he can even get to the level of being a serviceable backup center he's a decent pick and a bargain under the new CBA.
I'm willing to cut him a fair amount of slack for his terrible summer league showing - speed of the game, adjusting to rules changes, always very guard oriented in SL etc but I honestly still don't know what the Kings have in GP.
We'll learn a fair amount about him when camp opens though. If he has a passion for the game and some real drive he'll be able to learn from his failings and make some real gains over the rest of the summer.
He has a long way to go but Smits was also a freshman at Marist at the same age.
Papagiannis scares me as I never like prospects that enter the league without a translatable skill that they can fall back on. But if he can even get to the level of being a serviceable backup center he's a decent pick and a bargain under the new CBA.
I'm willing to cut him a fair amount of slack for his terrible summer league showing - speed of the game, adjusting to rules changes, always very guard oriented in SL etc but I honestly still don't know what the Kings have in GP.
We'll learn a fair amount about him when camp opens though. If he has a passion for the game and some real drive he'll be able to learn from his failings and make some real gains over the rest of the summer.
His knee had an MRI before he started playing. Do you think it's possible that this made him exceedingly tentative, given that this is practice, and I'm not sure he had even quite signed his rookie contract yet?
Maybe he just wanted to make sure, make double-triple-quadruple sure... that he didn't get hurt badly before he even got introduced into an NBA game?
Maybe he just wanted to make sure, make double-triple-quadruple sure... that he didn't get hurt badly before he even got introduced into an NBA game?
Hence, project center. And of the various ways forward for a project: learn a jumper, learn some post moves, learn to be a physically dominant rebounder or nasty defender, the offensive oriented ones are the more likely simply because he has good coordination for somebody his size to maybe execute them.
But in general being a 7' tall nice guy eliminates much of the advantage of being 7' tall in the first place. I know how that stuff starts, you are the big kid, always afraid of hurting somebody etc. and being labeled a bully, but its a bad athletic trait. As a big athlete you WANT to be a bully and establish physical dominance.
I am thinking of opening my own big man school to counter Pete Newel's waste of time learning post moves and whatnot. At my school we're going to learn more practical lessons. Day 1 will be Elbow to the Head day. Although it will cost me a pretty penny to pay short guys to stand in there as the punching bags. Day 2 will be Hip Checks. Day 3 Throw Your Big Ole Butt Into Somebody On the Glass Day, Day 4 How to Turn Into a Screen to Catch the Little Guy's Jaw With Your Shoulder, Day 5 "Accidental" Follow Through on Blocked Shot Attempts Day Day 6 Will Be Finger Wagging/Taunting Day and Day 7 will be MMA Training Day in case any of the midgets attempts to fight back.
But in general being a 7' tall nice guy eliminates much of the advantage of being 7' tall in the first place. I know how that stuff starts, you are the big kid, always afraid of hurting somebody etc. and being labeled a bully, but its a bad athletic trait. As a big athlete you WANT to be a bully and establish physical dominance.
I am thinking of opening my own big man school to counter Pete Newel's waste of time learning post moves and whatnot. At my school we're going to learn more practical lessons. Day 1 will be Elbow to the Head day. Although it will cost me a pretty penny to pay short guys to stand in there as the punching bags. Day 2 will be Hip Checks. Day 3 Throw Your Big Ole Butt Into Somebody On the Glass Day, Day 4 How to Turn Into a Screen to Catch the Little Guy's Jaw With Your Shoulder, Day 5 "Accidental" Follow Through on Blocked Shot Attempts Day Day 6 Will Be Finger Wagging/Taunting Day and Day 7 will be MMA Training Day in case any of the midgets attempts to fight back.
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That would be a better idea if the tapes we had of him in Europe did not show the same guy. Over there though we saw more of the effective rolls to the hoops, soft hands, and finishes,. so I consider it possible his complete inefficiency on offense in Vegas had something to do with his knee and/or more likely the system and guards he had to play with. But nothing that we've seen anywhere shows a fierce competitor on the boards and glass. Just a kid who grew up to be very tall with some coordination and learned how to play the roll man in the pick and roll. That I'll buy.
Wow....way premature to call out the kid with some of these labels. What we do know is he's very young, he's not NBA ready, he has to work on his body and he's inexperienced in the NBA game. 90-95% of the draft picks are not ready for the NBA. Most of those picks shot under 40%. Patience man patience.
What we also know is that what a lot of the scouting reports on him mentioned (being soft, limited away from the basket, passive) is what we saw in summer league vs what a lot of people on here wanted to believe (Marc Gasol lite with the d and passing skills). It is super early but he gave little indication that he's that type of player.
That's not true. People are about equally split on jumping the gun or just using the blanket "he's young" excuse with prospects, but that's nto teh way it works.
From a young age certain traits are near immutable, those you can know because they are just inherently part of a guy. Then other traits (actually closer to skills) are much more mutable and can change.
Immutable traits:
height/length
athleticism (except as impacted by weight)
hand-eye coordination
toughness/aggression/physicality
Traits that are established very early, typically before we ever get to see guys:
rebounding prowess
ballhandling ability
shotblocking instincts and timing
basketball I.Q./innate understanding
Traits that can sometimes be learned/changed:
shooting skills
post moves
how to set a pick, or use one
how to run the pick and roll etc.
weight gain or loss
Papa can lose weight and learn the bottom skills. There are very few (as in almost no) examples of learning the upper traits (and they are closer to traits than skills, that is the separation).
From a young age certain traits are near immutable, those you can know because they are just inherently part of a guy. Then other traits (actually closer to skills) are much more mutable and can change.
Immutable traits:
height/length
athleticism (except as impacted by weight)
hand-eye coordination
toughness/aggression/physicality
Traits that are established very early, typically before we ever get to see guys:
rebounding prowess
ballhandling ability
shotblocking instincts and timing
basketball I.Q./innate understanding
Traits that can sometimes be learned/changed:
shooting skills
post moves
how to set a pick, or use one
how to run the pick and roll etc.
weight gain or loss
Papa can lose weight and learn the bottom skills. There are very few (as in almost no) examples of learning the upper traits (and they are closer to traits than skills, that is the separation).
His knee was stiff and because NBA teams have a huge investment in these young guys, they did an MRI with symptoms that normally would not call for one. The MRI predictably showed nothing. Now, perhaps all this medical attention for a symptom that he never fussed about in the past may have rattled him. I hope he is not so tentative.
As to the willingness to bang, I see him frequently try to set picks but will look more closely to see if he makes contact. I wonder if a little banging with Cuz will bring out some latent hostility. If it doesn't, it just is not there. The latter sems likely.
As to the willingness to bang, I see him frequently try to set picks but will look more closely to see if he makes contact. I wonder if a little banging with Cuz will bring out some latent hostility. If it doesn't, it just is not there. The latter sems likely.
Hopefully Vlade will get into practice and work with GP And show him what it takes to be a big man in the NBA. 
I am NO expert but I did find this illustrating the differences.
http://www.fiba.com/asp_includes/download.asp?file_id=518
It looks like in FIBA, you can dribble the shot clock away as long as your dribbling back to the basket or not. If I'm reading that wrong, we have plenty of experts (meant as compliment) that will correct me.
http://www.fiba.com/asp_includes/download.asp?file_id=518
It looks like in FIBA, you can dribble the shot clock away as long as your dribbling back to the basket or not. If I'm reading that wrong, we have plenty of experts (meant as compliment) that will correct me.
