George Karl on why Seth plays

George Karl on Seth Curry:

Jason Jones ‏@mr_jasonjones 4m4 minutes ago
Karl: "Seth right now covers the ball better than anybody on our team."

Jason Jones ‏@mr_jasonjones 3m3 minutes ago
Karl: "I don’t need anymore points, I don’t need anything more than than somebody to cover the damn basketball."

Jason Jones ‏@mr_jasonjones 2m2 minutes ago
Karl: "If someone gets hungry enough to cover the basketball he’ll probably play."

As I said about a month ago or so, that Seth is the best perimeter defender we have. Now by comparison that may not be a stellar endorsement, but it should mean something to the team, and something to other young players trying to get minutes. There are other ways to make an impact besides putting points up on the board. Some of them just aren't as much fun!
 
No its exactly fair. Curry was there because Ben has been scared the whole season - that was Karl coaching last game when he went with Curry 36minutes because Ben was ghosting. Curry failed. And Ben returned. Then Ben failed because, same reasons as always. And we went to a full sized lineup (relatively given Acy is SF sized) down the stretch out of desperation since our small ones were going to lose the game.

I'm curious how you define failure? In what way did Curry fail, unless you deem that making one mistake at the end of the game as failure? He played solid defense throughout the game. He didn't score that much, six points I think on two three's, but that's not why he was out there.
 
I'm curious how you define failure? In what way did Curry fail, unless you deem that making one mistake at the end of the game as failure? He played solid defense throughout the game. He didn't score that much, six points I think on two three's, but that's not why he was out there.

no no -- Curry actually made multiple mistakes in OKC, but he competed. That was as good as game as you could hope if he's really a borderline NBA guy.

the failure I was referring to was tonight. He earned tonight's minutes with the OKC play, but looked flat out of his league here. So we brought back Ben, who promptly fell on his ass and lost his man. So we went back to Acy. Nightly search for somebody, anybody, to bear down.
 
Seth Curry plays better defense than Ben. WesMathews posted Ben up or did whatever he wanted to do....enter Seth Curry who was able to defend Mthews in the post, which shouldn't happen because of the size difference.

Right now, based on play as of late, both guys are missing open 3s. I think you flip a coin as to who gets minutes. You stick with Bellinelli for his allotted minutes because as the Dallas game indicates, he's capable of performing under pressure such as those 3 balls in the waning seconds. Ben takes it to the rim and slips for no apparent reason, have no clue what Curry can do in clutch situations because he's not been there very often

Let me get this straight, we stick with Belinelli, because of his consistency to hit three's. In the Dallas game, Curry went 2 out of 3 from the three point line, and is shooting 42.3% from the three for the year. Belinelli went 4 for 13 from the three in the Dallas game, and is shooting 32.8% from the three for the year. The major difference between Curry and Belinelli, is that Belinelli is 3" taller, Curry is a much better defender, and Belinelli take a hell of lot more shots than Curry. But Curry, so far, is a far more consistent shooter from the three. Whether he can sustain that given more shots is anyone's guess. What you shouldn't do, is give a player one three point shot during a game, have him miss it, and then say he can't shoot from there. That's pure BS!
 
no no -- Curry actually made multiple mistakes in OKC, but he competed. That was as good as game as you could hope if he's really a borderline NBA guy.

the failure I was referring to was tonight. He earned tonight's minutes with the OKC play, but looked flat out of his league here. So we brought back Ben, who promptly fell on his ass and lost his man. So we went back to Acy. Nightly search for somebody, anybody, to bear down.

OK, gotcha! I think we have to take any players athlete ability into consideration, and Curry seems to get the most out of his. If you could put Curry's brain into Ben's head, you'd have one hell of a player. I think the other consideration you have to give Curry is his lack of experience when it comes to who he's defending from one game to the next. Ben doesn't have that excuse. He's faced most of these guys several times before, where Curry is facing them for the first time in many cases. Not making excuses, just being realistic. If anything, it's an indictment of Ben.
 
Nobody was complaining about Collisons defense last season. It's when he's forced to switch and guard players like Dirk that he gets into trouble. He can try and put more pressure on that end though. I don't feel like hes always late on his defensive assignment, just he lets players pick their spots and get into comfortable rhythms....which is also a problem with our team in general.
 
Seth is indeed a really good defender, when he and the other small guards aren't asked to cover someone much bigger than they are. Karl needs to cut that stuff out now.
 
I know people are seeing Karl's quote as an endorsement of Curry. But I see it as an indictment of coaching.

Quick example. A young softball player had a coach that would yell at her to throw strikes when things weren't going well. That's all he had to offer in the way of coaching a pitcher. Over the course of the season her pitching got worse until the parent stepped in and coached her from the stands. She is now on a team where the coach knows what he's doing and you never hear "throw strikes." She's regained her form and gotten better. (true story bro)

Now, when Karl says the key to playing better D is for the team to play harder, and we keep getting worse, it's because he's not providing any actual direction. He's just stating wishes. The players get worse when they're directionless.

Even the "grit" of Anderson and Curry is lost within the defensive scheme.
 
I know people are seeing Karl's quote as an endorsement of Curry. But I see it as an indictment of coaching.

Quick example. A young softball player had a coach that would yell at her to throw strikes when things weren't going well. That's all he had to offer in the way of coaching a pitcher. Over the course of the season her pitching got worse until the parent stepped in and coached her from the stands. She is now on a team where the coach knows what he's doing and you never hear "throw strikes." She's regained her form and gotten better. (true story bro)

Now, when Karl says the key to playing better D is for the team to play harder, and we keep getting worse, it's because he's not providing any actual direction. He's just stating wishes. The players get worse when they're directionless.

Even the "grit" of Anderson and Curry is lost within the defensive scheme.

Come on, do you actually believe that they don't practice defensive schemes? Why prey tell, can they play good defense for a quarter, or perhaps even a half and then not play good defense the rest of the time? Seems they know how to play defense when they put out the effort. You can draw up defensive schemes all day long and it's meaningless if the players don't apply it. Defense is mainly about effort and doing your homework. Maybe we have some players that are more interested in scoring than they are stopping the other team from scoring.
 
Seth is indeed a really good defender, when he and the other small guards aren't asked to cover someone much bigger than they are. Karl needs to cut that stuff out now.

One of the problems you run into when you play a three guard lineup, is that other teams are going to take advantage of it. If the other team goes small, then you can get away with it. But when you end up with a 5'11" player guarding a 7 ' player, and his name is Dirk, your in trouble. Not a big fan of that kind of small ball.
 
One of the problems you run into when you play a three guard lineup, is that other teams are going to take advantage of it. If the other team goes small, then you can get away with it. But when you end up with a 5'11" player guarding a 7 ' player, and his name is Dirk, your in trouble. Not a big fan of that kind of small ball.

Tonight was quite notable for the Collison disappearance. This was the first game I can remember Karl abandoning his smallball backcourts for the stretch run and going back full sized in forever. He absolutely gave up on Collison, which he should have, but it was notable because he never has before no matter how bad things have gotten.
 
I know people are seeing Karl's quote as an endorsement of Curry. But I see it as an indictment of coaching.

Quick example. A young softball player had a coach that would yell at her to throw strikes when things weren't going well. That's all he had to offer in the way of coaching a pitcher. Over the course of the season her pitching got worse until the parent stepped in and coached her from the stands. She is now on a team where the coach knows what he's doing and you never hear "throw strikes." She's regained her form and gotten better. (true story bro)

Now, when Karl says the key to playing better D is for the team to play harder, and we keep getting worse, it's because he's not providing any actual direction. He's just stating wishes. The players get worse when they're directionless.

Even the "grit" of Anderson and Curry is lost within the defensive scheme.

This is exactly it. Wanting the team to defend better is one thing, actually knowing how to get there is another. It makes no sense to me that he can talk about our inability to defend -- just before the 4th quarter in the sideline interview and again at the end of the game -- and he still puts a lineup on the floor with Curry, Collison, and Belinelli on the wing and Gay at PF. That's just about the worst defensive lineup we have and he goes to it again and again in the fourth and they continue to blow leads every time. Quincy Acy was wrecking shop in this game and he didn't even try to bring him back on the floor until after we'd lost the lead. On a night when Cousins is in foul trouble and WCS is unavailable he was the best option we had against Randle in the post and George Karl is just oblivious to what a disaster Rudy Gay at PF is on the defensive end.

Bricklayer you've surpassed the point of objectivity on McLemore so long ago that nothing you say about him is even worth listening to anymore. It's the same story for you every game -- he's invisible, he shrinks from the moment, he's afraid to shoot, he's over-matched on defense. Even in a game where he was the most aggressive player on our team for half the game -- and played a huge role in building that big lead in the first place -- all you want to talk about is how he failed us in the second half. He took 4 shots in his usual 5 minute courtesy stint to start the 3rd and made 2 of them. Curry was playing so terribly that George Karl had to put him back in midway through the fourth quarter and he touched the ball maybe twice after that. Other than Kobe (who was being guarded primarily by Rudy Gay) none of the Lakers guards could get going while Ben was in the game. After he went to the bench it was a free for all.

Why does Ben always disappear in the second half? We run the offense in the first half of the game. That's the difference. Once Collison and Belinelli come in the game the offense is gone and it turns into guys freelancing. Even if Ben does come back in at that point, he's not a guard that can create his own shot so he's forgotten about as Marco and Darren take turns seeing who'll have the worst shot selection that night. I think we should consider trading both of them at this point. Marco has not been an elite shooter this season, he's been a volume shooter. Darren has a good game every once in awhile but overall he looks lost in this system. And George Karl is going to keep playing them no matter how much they hurt the team as long as they're on the roster. Trade one or both of them for a wing defender we can bring off the bench (3 and D is probably asking for too much -- I'd settle for a one-dimensional stopper) and we'd probably see an improvement on both ends.
 
Come on, do you actually believe that they don't practice defensive schemes? Why prey tell, can they play good defense for a quarter, or perhaps even a half and then not play good defense the rest of the time? Seems they know how to play defense when they put out the effort. You can draw up defensive schemes all day long and it's meaningless if the players don't apply it. Defense is mainly about effort and doing your homework. Maybe we have some players that are more interested in scoring than they are stopping the other team from scoring.

Of course they practice. But if the coaching is ineffective or not clear, thats when execution falls apart. Effort doesn't impact that part of the equation.
 
This is exactly it. Wanting the team to defend better is one thing, actually knowing how to get there is another. It makes no sense to me that he can talk about our inability to defend -- just before the 4th quarter in the sideline interview and again at the end of the game -- and he still puts a lineup on the floor with Curry, Collison, and Belinelli on the wing and Gay at PF. That's just about the worst defensive lineup we have and he goes to it again and again in the fourth and they continue to blow leads every time. Quincy Acy was wrecking shop in this game and he didn't even try to bring him back on the floor until after we'd lost the lead. On a night when Cousins is in foul trouble and WCS is unavailable he was the best option we had against Randle in the post and George Karl is just oblivious to what a disaster Rudy Gay at PF is on the defensive end.

Bricklayer you've surpassed the point of objectivity on McLemore so long ago that nothing you say about him is even worth listening to anymore. It's the same story for you every game -- he's invisible, he shrinks from the moment, he's afraid to shoot, he's over-matched on defense. Even in a game where he was the most aggressive player on our team for half the game -- and played a huge role in building that big lead in the first place -- all you want to talk about is how he failed us in the second half. He took 4 shots in his usual 5 minute courtesy stint to start the 3rd and made 2 of them. Curry was playing so terribly that George Karl had to put him back in midway through the fourth quarter and he touched the ball maybe twice after that. Other than Kobe (who was being guarded primarily by Rudy Gay) none of the Lakers guards could get going while Ben was in the game. After he went to the bench it was a free for all.

Why does Ben always disappear in the second half? We run the offense in the first half of the game. That's the difference. Once Collison and Belinelli come in the game the offense is gone and it turns into guys freelancing. Even if Ben does come back in at that point, he's not a guard that can create his own shot so he's forgotten about as Marco and Darren take turns seeing who'll have the worst shot selection that night. I think we should consider trading both of them at this point. Marco has not been an elite shooter this season, he's been a volume shooter. Darren has a good game every once in awhile but overall he looks lost in this system. And George Karl is going to keep playing them no matter how much they hurt the team as long as they're on the roster. Trade one or both of them for a wing defender we can bring off the bench (3 and D is probably asking for too much -- I'd settle for a one-dimensional stopper) and we'd probably see an improvement on both ends.


Oh, I don't think I'm the one who has lost objectivity about Ben. He is rapidly becoming the most fetishized sub--10.0 PER player in Kings history. And we've tried to do that a number of times before to people. I suspect part of it is people still committed to his draft position with a large dose of "he's a nice guy" thrown in. I would like to give people around here more credit than saying its because he dunks good.

And the thing is, he's only marginally improving. Cut through the minutes and per 36:

Yr 1: 11.9pts 3.9reb 1.3ast 0.7stl 0.3blk 1.6TO Ortg: 97 Drtg: 112 PER: 7.7
Yr2: 13.4pts 3.2reb 1.9ast 1.0stl 0.3blk 1.9TO Ortg: 104 Drtg: 112 PER: 10.4
Yr3: 12.9pts 3.7reb 1.9ast 1.4stl 0.2blk 2.6TO Ortg: 98 Drtg: 110 PER: 9.5

He's slowly improving efficiency, but he's still barely productive. And he's now 200 games into his NBA career. That could easily be 1/4 of it or more. Peja played in 804 games in his career, and he was a multiple time All Star. Gerald Wallace lasted 832. Hedo 997. All much better players.

He's started 167 games with a career PER of 9.2.

I ran a simple search for all players in the history of the NBA who had started 167 games in their first 3 seasons with a PER of less than 10, and the list that came back was a total of 3 players, ever. Ben, Trenton Hassel, and Marc Iavaroni.

But please tell me I am the one without perspective here.
 
Oh, I don't think I'm the one who has lost objectivity about Ben. He is rapidly becoming the most fetishized sub--10.0 PER player in Kings history. And we've tried to do that a number of times before to people. I suspect part of it is people still committed to his draft position with a large dose of "he's a nice guy" thrown in. I would like to give people around here more credit than saying its because he dunks good.

And the thing is, he's only marginally improving. Cut through the minutes and per 36:

Yr 1: 11.9pts 3.9reb 1.3ast 0.7stl 0.3blk 1.6TO Ortg: 97 Drtg: 112 PER: 7.7
Yr2: 13.4pts 3.2reb 1.9ast 1.0stl 0.3blk 1.9TO Ortg: 104 Drtg: 112 PER: 10.4
Yr3: 12.9pts 3.7reb 1.9ast 1.4stl 0.2blk 2.6TO Ortg: 98 Drtg: 110 PER: 9.5

He's slowly improving efficiency, but he's still barely productive. And he's now 200 games into his NBA career. That could easily be 1/4 of it or more. Peja played in 804 games in his career, and he was a multiple time All Star. Gerald Wallace lasted 832. Hedo 997. All much better players.

He's started 167 games with a career PER of 9.2.

I ran a simple search for all players in the history of the NBA who had started 167 games in their first 3 seasons with a PER of less than 10, and the list that came back was a total of 3 players, ever. Ben, Trenton Hassel, and Marc Iavaroni.

But please tell me I am the one without perspective here.

I have supported and made excuses for Ben since day one except now I agree with Mr. Layer. Yes, he's an athletic nice guy but that doesn't translate on the basketball court.
 
That's good to hear...so play Trill more then perhaps? It took Karl this long to realize he is sick of just scoring points?
 
Oh, I don't think I'm the one who has lost objectivity about Ben. He is rapidly becoming the most fetishized sub--10.0 PER player in Kings history. And we've tried to do that a number of times before to people. I suspect part of it is people still committed to his draft position with a large dose of "he's a nice guy" thrown in. I would like to give people around here more credit than saying its because he dunks good.

And the thing is, he's only marginally improving. Cut through the minutes and per 36:

Yr 1: 11.9pts 3.9reb 1.3ast 0.7stl 0.3blk 1.6TO Ortg: 97 Drtg: 112 PER: 7.7
Yr2: 13.4pts 3.2reb 1.9ast 1.0stl 0.3blk 1.9TO Ortg: 104 Drtg: 112 PER: 10.4
Yr3: 12.9pts 3.7reb 1.9ast 1.4stl 0.2blk 2.6TO Ortg: 98 Drtg: 110 PER: 9.5

He's slowly improving efficiency, but he's still barely productive. And he's now 200 games into his NBA career. That could easily be 1/4 of it or more. Peja played in 804 games in his career, and he was a multiple time All Star. Gerald Wallace lasted 832. Hedo 997. All much better players.

He's started 167 games with a career PER of 9.2.

I ran a simple search for all players in the history of the NBA who had started 167 games in their first 3 seasons with a PER of less than 10, and the list that came back was a total of 3 players, ever. Ben, Trenton Hassel, and Marc Iavaroni.

But please tell me I am the one without perspective here.
  1. None of that means he's "scared," though.
  2. It's entirely reasonable to question the objectivity of somebody who can't be critical of a player, whether that criticism is valid or not, without being pejorative. I too question your objectivity when it comes to McLemore, and it's not because your assessment of his productivity is inaccurate. It's because you can't manage to talk about the kid without revealing your utter contempt for him.
 
Let me get this straight, we stick with Belinelli, because of his consistency to hit three's. In the Dallas game, Curry went 2 out of 3 from the three point line, and is shooting 42.3% from the three for the year. Belinelli went 4 for 13 from the three in the Dallas game, and is shooting 32.8% from the three for the year. The major difference between Curry and Belinelli, is that Belinelli is 3" taller, Curry is a much better defender, and Belinelli take a hell of lot more shots than Curry. But Curry, so far, is a far more consistent shooter from the three. Whether he can sustain that given more shots is anyone's guess. What you shouldn't do, is give a player one three point shot during a game, have him miss it, and then say he can't shoot from there. That's pure BS!
Go tell it to George.....Bellinelli is going to play, he's a vet and George plays vets. Whether you like it or not, Bellinelli is a way more proven product on the floor offensively. Is he playing well this season? It's been a little disappointing. But hey, at least Bellinelli is an upgrade over the immortal Stauskas, right?
 
  1. None of that means he's "scared," though.
  2. It's entirely reasonable to question the objectivity of somebody who can't be critical of a player, whether that criticism is valid or not, without being pejorative. I too question your objectivity when it comes to McLemore, and it's not because your assessment of his productivity is inaccurate. It's because you can't manage to talk about the kid without revealing your utter contempt for him.
Not for him, for his competitiveness. Because that is exactly 100% the problem. Ben comes from one of the toughest backgrounds you can come from in the U.S., and yet he presents with all the ruggedness of a prep schooler. Everyone always wants to run around and blame everyone else on the team, the coaching staff, the moderating staff, and probably the U.N. for how a guy who can run like that, and jump like that, and has such form on his jumper can be such an empty suit. I propose a far less elaborate conspiracy. Look in the mirror.

Ben seems like such a nice guy that I would, as I have mentioned, trust him with my daughter, if I had one. He'd probably open the car door for her, and would probably end up in a theater watching a romcom because that's what she wanted to watch. I like nice guys. I like to be around nice guys in part because they allow me to be nice. If the world had a whole lot more nice guys and a whole lot fewer butthead s, it would be a far better place. If I go to war, I go to war for people like Ben.

But if I get into a fight, the very last person I want by my side is some damn nice guy with confidence issues.
 
McLemore is in the wrong place. He'll never be a "mad dog, killer type" on the court, that much is true. But I do believe that you can coach most of his shortcomings out of him. Problem for him (and us, by extension) is that he plays for a coach that doesn't have time to develop McLemore at the rate that he needs to be taught. He was coming along at an acceptable pace with Malone, he'd probably do well under the tutelage of a coach like that, or a Billy Donovan, or a Brad Stevens. Certainly not a George Karl, especially not under the circumstances the Kings find themselves in.

Shame, too. We're probably going to get rid of the kid for pennies on the dollar, and he'll either bust out, or he'll end up on a team that's willing to bring him along. He'll never be a 20ppg scorer, or a "cut your heart out and eat it" type of defender but, honestly? The only thing between McLemore and reaching Khris Middleton-level productivity, IMO, is coaching.
 
Go tell it to George.....Bellinelli is going to play, he's a vet and George plays vets. Whether you like it or not, Bellinelli is a way more proven product on the floor offensively. Is he playing well this season? It's been a little disappointing. But hey, at least Bellinelli is an upgrade over the immortal Stauskas, right?

I wasn't discussing the why's and wherefore's of Curry's minutes versus Belinelli. Separate issue! I was rebutting the argument that Belinelli should get the minutes because he's the better and more consistent shooter, which at the moment, he isn't.
 
I wasn't discussing the why's and wherefore's of Curry's minutes versus Belinelli. Separate issue! I was rebutting the argument that Belinelli should get the minutes because he's the better and more consistent shooter, which at the moment, he isn't.
Well...why don't you look at it this way. When Bellinelli comes in off the bench, many times he's the 1st option or 2 nd option.....and quite frankly the difficulty factor on his shots is high and you can blame partly him for that and blame partly Karl for that and maybe even DC for that because I think DC has not been very good at turning the offense. Curry is literally not an option on offense. Can he shoot? Yes. But these 2 guys have completely different roles in the offense. I don't disagree that Bellinelli has been disappointing this year but in crunch time, I want him and not Curry.

I doubt you find a coach in the NBA who would take Seth Curry over Bellinelli...to think that is just far fetched at this point.
 
McLemore is in the wrong place. He'll never be a "mad dog, killer type" on the court, that much is true. But I do believe that you can coach most of his shortcomings out of him. Problem for him (and us, by extension) is that he plays for a coach that doesn't have time to develop McLemore at the rate that he needs to be taught. He was coming along at an acceptable pace with Malone, he'd probably do well under the tutelage of a coach like that, or a Billy Donovan, or a Brad Stevens. Certainly not a George Karl, especially not under the circumstances the Kings find themselves in.

Shame, too. We're probably going to get rid of the kid for pennies on the dollar, and he'll either bust out, or he'll end up on a team that's willing to bring him along. He'll never be a 20ppg scorer, or a "cut your heart out and eat it" type of defender but, honestly? The only thing between McLemore and reaching Khris Middleton-level productivity, IMO, is coaching.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. I understand you argument, but I think sometimes the makeup of a players personality enters into it. Derrick Coleman was a supremely gifted PF that in most people's opinion, never quite lived up to his press clippings. Don't get me wrong, he was a very good player, but he was gifted enough to be a HOF player, maybe a top 100 player. So what held him back? Himself! He was satisfied with his own results, and to achieve better results would have required more work, which in his case would have netted those results.

Ben falls into a different catagory. He puts in the work. He's dedicated to the game. But he's not achieving the results. Did he improve from year one to year two? Yep, a little. I thought at the time, because I like Ben, he's from my hometown for god's sake and he grew up two blocks from where I grew up, that he needed to play in a more free flowing system where his athleticism could be used to his advantage. Well, he'll never find a more free flowing system than the one Karl runs. And at times, it looks like he's figured it out, and then, gone again.

Ben is inconsistent and that's been the knock on him since highschool. That was the knock on Wiggins as well. But Wiggins seems to have figured it out, while Ben is still struggling with it. I think it has more to do with his personality than his skill level, which in some areas is limited. By nature, he's not an aggressive person, and when your gifted with the physical abilities that he has, aggression is an important trait to have. We can agree or disagree on whether he has gotten the right coaching in his career. But he frustrated Bill Self, his coach at Kansas, who is noted for developing players (forget Thomas Robinson). Ben averaged almost 27 minutes a game his rookie year, and averaged 32 and a half minutes his next year. Neither he, nor his supporters can make the argument that he hasn't had the opportunity. Curry would have given one of his kidneys for those minutes.

Perhaps the worse thing that happened to Ben was being thrown into the starting lineup his rookie year. He didn't really earn the job, he got it by attrition. With that came expectations that were probably unfair. It's not Karl"s job to develop young players, it's the organizations job. Karl's job is to win games, and use the players that he thinks can accomplish that. How well he's doing that is a separate argument. I doubt that Ben would have gotten as many minutes under Adelman that he has under Karl. I've supported and to some extent, defended Ben up to this point. But he's reached put up or shut up time. It's on him. He has shown from time to time that he knows how to play at a higher level. If he can't figure out how to do that all the time, he's going to be gone.
 
Well...why don't you look at it this way. When Bellinelli comes in off the bench, many times he's the 1st option or 2 nd option.....and quite frankly the difficulty factor on his shots is high and you can blame partly him for that and blame partly Karl for that and maybe even DC for that because I think DC has not been very good at turning the offense. Curry is literally not an option on offense. Can he shoot? Yes. But these 2 guys have completely different roles in the offense. I don't disagree that Bellinelli has been disappointing this year but in crunch time, I want him and not Curry.

I doubt you find a coach in the NBA who would take Seth Curry over Bellinelli...to think that is just far fetched at this point.

First, I wasn't making the argument that Curry should replace Belinelli in the lineup. As I said, my argument was just a rebuttal of so called facts. So please stop putting words in my mouth. I see Curry as a PG, not a SG. If I were to replace someone in the lineup with Curry, it would be Collison not Belinelli. Now I know you probably haven't seen Curry play when he gets 30 minutes a game, but believe me, the dude can shoot the ball. Probably as well as Belinelli if given the chance. People assume that because a player came from the D-League, he's a lesser talent. Well, I remember sitting at summer league five or so years ago and watching a player on our summer league team named Wes Mathews, and commenting to Uncia03, that I was impressed with him, and that he might make our team. He didn't, and five years later, we were trying to trade for him.
 
Ben falls into a different catagory. He puts in the work. He's dedicated to the game. But he's not achieving the results. Did he improve from year one to year two? Yep, a little. I thought at the time, because I like Ben, he's from my hometown for god's sake and he grew up two blocks from where I grew up, that he needed to play in a more free flowing system where his athleticism could be used to his advantage. Well, he'll never find a more free flowing system than the one Karl runs. And at times, it looks like he's figured it out, and then, gone again.
Sorry, not buying it. I'm can't evaluate McLemore based on what he looked like in high school or college, because I don't watch amateur sports. Based on what I've seen of him in the pros, I've never thought of him as someone who would benefit from playing in a "free flowing" system. I have always felt that he would benefit most from a more structured style, and from more hand-on coaching.

I do agree with you about McLemore being made the starter on opening night doing a disservice to him; I feel like McLemore was kind of thrown into the deep end. He reminds me of a pushbutton third class, who walks aboard ship, and is immediately put in charge of a workcenter, by virtue of being the most senior man, because, "Well, you're a third class, of course you know this stuff," only he doesn't know this stuff, and is not in a position to learn, because his coach is more concerned with the macro view of winning games than the micro view of making sure that McLemore is keeping up.
 
First, I wasn't making the argument that Curry should replace Belinelli in the lineup. As I said, my argument was just a rebuttal of so called facts. So please stop putting words in my mouth. I see Curry as a PG, not a SG. If I were to replace someone in the lineup with Curry, it would be Collison not Belinelli. Now I know you probably haven't seen Curry play when he gets 30 minutes a game, but believe me, the dude can shoot the ball. Probably as well as Belinelli if given the chance. People assume that because a player came from the D-League, he's a lesser talent. Well, I remember sitting at summer league five or so years ago and watching a player on our summer league team named Wes Mathews, and commenting to Uncia03, that I was impressed with him, and that he might make our team. He didn't, and five years later, we were trying to trade for him.
I said as much that the kid can shoot in my previous post....why your arguing that is unclear and not to be disrespectful but I just watched Curry for 30 plus minutes against Dallas. I like the kid. I've raised the point about his defense many, many weeks ago during games. He appeared to be our best defender in the short stints he played.

And he's played fairly well in doses...but here's my point made in a different way, if Karl used Bellinelli as a spot up shooter who gets his shot only when the ball is kicked out for the 3....kind of like what Curry gets..... Bellinelli would have a higher shooting %. Both guys are used quite differently. If anything, Curry should be compared to Ben because they are playing the same role and position. For me Curry, has been better than Ben. Better defense, better spot shooter but that's close, but a way better ball handler and IQ.
 
I said as much that the kid can shoot in my previous post....why your arguing that is unclear and not to be disrespectful but I just watched Curry for 30 plus minutes against Dallas. I like the kid. I've raised the point about his defense many, many weeks ago during games. He appeared to be our best defender in the short stints he played.

And he's played fairly well in doses...but here's my point made in a different way, if Karl used Bellinelli as a spot up shooter who gets his shot only when the ball is kicked out for the 3....kind of like what Curry gets..... Bellinelli would have a higher shooting %. Both guys are used quite differently. If anything, Curry should be compared to Ben because they are playing the same role and position. For me Curry, has been better than Ben. Better defense, better spot shooter but that's close, but a way better ball handler and IQ.

The original post I responded to, implied that Belinelli was a better shooter than Curry, and therefore based on that, he would get more playing time than Curry. I disputed that Belinelli was the better shooter with facts to back up what I said. It was merely an intellectual argument. I never implied that Curry should replace Belinelli in the lineup. I agree with you about Ben, and Curry playing better defense and having better overall skills and IQ.
 
Sorry, not buying it. I'm can't evaluate McLemore based on what he looked like in high school or college, because I don't watch amateur sports. Based on what I've seen of him in the pros, I've never thought of him as someone who would benefit from playing in a "free flowing" system. I have always felt that he would benefit most from a more structured style, and from more hand-on coaching.

I do agree with you about McLemore being made the starter on opening night doing a disservice to him; I feel like McLemore was kind of thrown into the deep end. He reminds me of a pushbutton third class, who walks aboard ship, and is immediately put in charge of a workcenter, by virtue of being the most senior man, because, "Well, you're a third class, of course you know this stuff," only he doesn't know this stuff, and is not in a position to learn, because his coach is more concerned with the macro view of winning games than the micro view of making sure that McLemore is keeping up.

As to what system is best for McLemore is a subjective argument which neither of us can prove one way or the other. I just like mine better. Big surprise huh? Unfortunately I can't throw away all the games that I saw Ben play prior to his arrival in the NBA. And I think they help when trying to figure out what Ben's problem is. The one statement I heard from his highschool coach and his college coach, is that he needs to be more aggressive. I think that statement holds true today. Why he's not more aggressive is a mystery to me, and maybe it's a mystery to Ben as well. I'm sure he wants to succeed. But his wanting and my wishing hasn't made it happen. At least so far.
 
I tend to be of the opinion that a professional basketball player can be a positive contributor to an NBA team without being aggressive; it just takes a more rigidly defined role than what McLemore currently has. My opinion is that McLemore, humorously enough, is part of the ridiculously small percentage of basketball players who would be best served by playing under a micromanaging-type coach. And hey, even great coaches aren't great for everybody. Rick Adelman was a great coach for Webber, Divac, Christie, Stojakovic, Pollard, Bibby, even Jackson. For Gerald Wallace? Not so much.
 
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