Front office ... the discussion

How do you view the front office so far?


  • Total voters
    123
#31
I'm curious, would any of you change your votes if it came out that we were never really interested in Monta and it was just his agent drumming up interest?

I voted leaning negative, but too soon to judge. I'm not a fan of losing Reke and I think signing Landry is a good move for a contending team, something we are not. However, if we were never really trying to get Monta, I would probably change my vote to leaning positive, but too soon to judge.
 
#33
The primary problem I see with picking up mid-sized(or larger) redundant contracts in order to clear out our old guys is that 1 they aren't upgrades and 2 someone has to want to take the old guys. We heard how much they were trying to move on draft night. They lucked out and lost in all the celebration was the fact that they were unable to make 7 and any of our pieces attractive to 6 other teams in a weak draft.

Making changes just to make changes isn't the route to success you need a definite plan in mind to get to the destination you want. New guy comes in and thinks we have to make moves and then makes lateral moves because they are the only ones available. If his plan involves moving pieces for other pieces we are now at the mercy of someone else wanting to take the pieces we don't want anymore(without the ability to absorb much salary). If he had identified a trade partner and gotten verbal on a move of some of our pieces for a hole then went out and got someone to fill in the new vacancy there wouldn't be so much fall out. But right now we have traded Reke for a PG and Landry(or just Monte) in the hope we find a trade partner when we could have kept reke moved the same pieces we are talking about moving and traded reke at a later time without such huge holes in our roster and the unique talent loss.

And that is why so many people are hung up on the Reke move. Reke had unique talent. There are only a few guys in the NBA that can do what Reke could do when he came into the league and we were not able to utilize that unique talent for the 4 years he was here in any sort of system. It just so happens that a larger % of the guys who have that talent turn into stars then the guys who don't have it. Reke was also working on other aspects of his game and they were coming but that uniqueness sat there underutilized. From our point of view any competent coach should have been able to leverage Reke into easier shots for those around him. Wasted potential. Then we watch him go because of 2 million a year.

Would he have turned into something more in a different setting? Could he still have here with a good coach? We don't know and now never will but you take that chance because if he and Cousins put it together then you have championship potential what we have now is playoff potential(provided additional moves). Our risk is lower but our potential ceiling is also lower. We also aren't guaranteed that Cousins will put it all together either maybe he just turns into a multi-allstar instead of a superstar all our chips are on one number now and the potential payout is not as high.

If the plan was to tank for a year with just a few core guys lasting then we shouldn't have taken on contracts that extend 4 years and eat up mid level cap for a backup position(s). And we still could have traded the same players we are talking about doing and going after that name we want and plugged in low cost players on year contracts. We are talking about tanking another year though then and I don't know how much Cousins would want to extend into that. That we can't identify Pete's plan yet isn't a good sign.
 
#35
I'm curious, would any of you change your votes if it came out that we were never really interested in Monta and it was just his agent drumming up interest?

I voted leaning negative, but too soon to judge. I'm not a fan of losing Reke and I think signing Landry is a good move for a contending team, something we are not. However, if we were never really trying to get Monta, I would probably change my vote to leaning positive, but too soon to judge.
I didn't take Monte into account to say UNFAVORABLE. They're doing things that make no sense. because the moves he has made don't make sense for any of the identified needs or wants on our team aside from more assists(and its very likely his 9 assists go down if we are pounding the ball in low to Cousins). If he is trying to tank then there were better ways of going about that also.
 
#36
The primary problem I see with picking up mid-sized(or larger) redundant contracts in order to clear out our old guys is that 1 they aren't upgrades and 2 someone has to want to take the old guys. We heard how much they were trying to move on draft night. They lucked out and lost in all the celebration was the fact that they were unable to make 7 and any of our pieces attractive to 6 other teams in a weak draft.

Making changes just to make changes isn't the route to success you need a definite plan in mind to get to the destination you want. New guy comes in and thinks we have to make moves and then makes lateral moves because they are the only ones available. If his plan involves moving pieces for other pieces we are now at the mercy of someone else wanting to take the pieces we don't want anymore(without the ability to absorb much salary). If he had identified a trade partner and gotten verbal on a move of some of our pieces for a hole then went out and got someone to fill in the new vacancy there wouldn't be so much fall out. But right now we have traded Reke for a PG and Landry(or just Monte) in the hope we find a trade partner when we could have kept reke moved the same pieces we are talking about moving and traded reke at a later time without such huge holes in our roster and the unique talent loss.

And that is why so many people are hung up on the Reke move. Reke had unique talent. There are only a few guys in the NBA that can do what Reke could do when he came into the league and we were not able to utilize that unique talent for the 4 years he was here in any sort of system. It just so happens that a larger % of the guys who have that talent turn into stars then the guys who don't have it. Reke was also working on other aspects of his game and they were coming but that uniqueness sat there underutilized. From our point of view any competent coach should have been able to leverage Reke into easier shots for those around him. Wasted potential. Then we watch him go because of 2 million a year.

Would he have turned into something more in a different setting? Could he still have here with a good coach? We don't know and now never will but you take that chance because if he and Cousins put it together then you have championship potential what we have now is playoff potential(provided additional moves). Our risk is lower but our potential ceiling is also lower. We also aren't guaranteed that Cousins will put it all together either maybe he just turns into a multi-allstar instead of a superstar all our chips are on one number now and the potential payout is not as high.

If the plan was to tank for a year with just a few core guys lasting then we shouldn't have taken on contracts that extend 4 years and eat up mid level cap for a backup position(s). And we still could have traded the same players we are talking about doing and going after that name we want and plugged in low cost players on year contracts. We are talking about tanking another year though then and I don't know how much Cousins would want to extend into that. That we can't identify Pete's plan yet isn't a good sign.
i approve of this message.

:)
 
#37

Maybe we just aren't smart enough to see that Pete's working 4 moves ahead lol.
Maybe so. But in chess thinking 4 moves ahead can still get you checkmated by opponent if you're over-confidant and not really executing superior winning strategy. We can only hope nerd knows best.
 
#41
Folks the nerds have won. While ackward, they are the smartest guys in the room and the cream rises to the top. I hope he's a nerd like Morey in Houston, and he may be. If it's just agent spin on Ellis looking for a straw man for team to bid against or bad we can't do a strip down rebuild advice from the top, I'll still say way too early to know. But if he's chasing Monte, he's not a nerd because he's not super smart. He's just ackward ... pretty sure that makes him a dweeb. I'm praying for nerd.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#42
I really do not believe that our GM and our coach are not working in concert. I just don't. I think Coach Malone is going to run his system and he is asking for some of these guys, he believes they can work. I know crossing sports is frowned upon, but here in Portland our football (soccer) team has a very unpopular GM and a popular coach. People were second guessing a lot of signings and releases the team made in the offseason, all blaming our unpopular GM, but oh crap. they fit our new coach's system perfectly and they went 15 games without a loss, a streak that was just ended on Sunday while our captain, our early season MVP and our super-sub were all off the match roster as they are competing in the Gold Cup.
 
#43
Voted unfavorable for now but if Ellis signing happens, I'll be in the horrible camp. While its early in the regime, that would suggest we haven't addressed our biggest needs, didn't create cap room flexibility, traded young/defense for older/offense and brought in someone who didn't meet the "culture" criteria.

If Ellis was just a smokescreen, I'll still view their performance as unfavorable with hopefully balancing moves down the road.

Either way, dissapointed after what I hoped was going to be a positive change.
 
#44
Voted leaning negative, mostly for the "too soon to judge." Otherwise I would be unfavorable.
The draft was fine.
I disagree with the Iggy and Reke (non)moves, but respect that they stuck by their price/time limits.
The Landry move made no sense to me. He has experience and scoring on JT, but neither by as much as you would think.
 
#46
Sorry to kinda go OOT but I really feel a need to post this, and since I missed the chance to do so in the original thread which is now locked it makes the most sense to rant here

That whole little discussion on buying tickets irks me as an international fan. I'm sorry I dont live on Sac, I guess watching almost every game for the last 7 year's doesn't cut it. Vivek talked so much about NBA 3.0, a global NBA. Does Leslie Moore honestly think a billion Indians give a **** about Vivek saving the Kings and keeping them in Sacramento? 80% of those future fans probably wouldn't even have heard of Sacramento before starting to follow the Kings. I don't see them becoming season ticket holders in India. Guess we international fans aren't entitled to ever question the great Ranadive. Ignorant.
 
#47
Honestly, there is not a single move so far that I have liked from this new regime! McLemore pick I understand and it's BPA but a bit concerning that we were so focused on him and would have selected him even if he had #1 pick!

I do not like the fact that we did not re-sign Evans and let him go for peanuts (with all due respect)

I do not like the Landry signing. He gives us nothing we need and it creates more crowding in the front court.

I HATE the interest in Ellis. It would be dumbest move so far!

I LOVED the interest in Iggy when I was under the assumption that we were looking to create Evans-McLemore-Iggy perimeter trio to go with Cousins at C but it was obviously as a replacement for Evans!

There has not been one move where I said, "that makes a lot of sense, these guys know what they are doing"!
 
#48
honestly, there is not a single move so far that i have liked from this new regime! Mclemore pick i understand and it's bpa but a bit concerning that we were so focused on him and would have selected him even if he had #1 pick!

I do not like the fact that we did not re-sign evans and let him go for peanuts (with all due respect)

i do not like the landry signing. He gives us nothing we need and it creates more crowding in the front court.

I hate the interest in ellis. It would be dumbest move so far!

I loved the interest in iggy when i was under the assumption that we were looking to create evans-mclemore-iggy perimeter trio to go with cousins at c but it was obviously as a replacement for evans!

There has not been one move where i said, "that makes a lot of sense, these guys know what they are doing"!
preach!
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#49
Incomplete/Confused. So far, I see mixed messages. First it's an emphasis on defense; then it's passing and shooting with nary a mention of defense. There is somewhat of a message on "culture" with the three additions. They all seem like good guys. But that really seems incidental to their acquisition. The only rationale that I can perceive so far is: Opportunism.

So they try for Iggy, a two-way player, and they don't get him. They made clear they wanted Tyreke, a two-way player, but they don't think he's worth $11 mill/year (which I agree with). Instead, they get Vasquez, an offensive pg with little defensive reputation. Then they seem to go after Calderon, an offensive pg, not much of a defensive player; then they get Landry, who is not much of a defender, but a pretty good guy to come off the bench. Landry is also a guy that has previously bought in to Malone's coaching, so there is a cultural fit there. Now we hear about Ellis. Maybe it's true, maybe not. But Ellis does fit into this patchwork quilt for one reason - he may be gettable. Essentially, they are coming out with a rationale (culture, passing, shooting) after the acquisiton. But they don't care really whether it's defense, offense, or defense/offense. They just want to acquire what they perceive to be a valuable asset at the right price. And chemistry is taking a back seat (at least in this initial phase). This is a very "Petrie-like" performance to my mind - the aquisition of assets at the right price, probably with the intention of leveraging those assets into something more valuable down the line. If they didn't realize before this process, they certainly must realize now - FAs are going to want more from the non-playoff contender than from the playoff contender. That means the Kings, while being cognizant of cap management, can't be picky in terms of need or fit.
 
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#51
Incomplete/Confused. So far, I see mixed messages. First it's an emphasis on defense; then it's passing and shooting with nary a mention of defense. There is somewhat of a message on "culture" with the three additions. They all seem like good guys. But that really seems incidental to their acquisition. The only rationale that I can perceive so far is: Opportunism.

So they try for Iggy, a two-way player, and they don't get him. They made clear they wanted Tyreke, a two-way player, but they don't think he's worth $11 mill/year (which I agree with). Instead, they get Vasquez, an offensive pg with little defensive reputation. Then they seem to go after Calderon, an offensive pg, not much of a defensive player; then they get Landry, who is not much of a defender, but a pretty good guy to come off the bench. Landry is also a guy that has previously bought in to Malone's coaching, so there is a cultural fit there. Now we hear about Ellis. Maybe it's true, maybe not. But Ellis does fit into this patchwork quilt for one reason - he may be gettable. Essentially, they are coming out with a rationale (culture, passing, shooting) after the acquisiton. But they don't care really whether it's defense, offense, or defense/offense. They just want to acquire what they perceive to be a valuable asset at the right price. And chemistry is taking a back seat (at least in this initial phase). This is a very "Petrie-like" performance to my mind - the aquisition of assets at the right price, probably with the intention of leveraging those assets into something more valuable down the line. If they didn't realize before this process, they certainly must realize now - FAs are going to want more from the non-playoff contender than from the playoff contender. That means the Kings, while being cognizant of cap management, can't be picky in terms of need or fit.
hey, look at that!! a kingster post i don't entirely disagree with!!

feels a bit like unknowingly catching a glimpse of halley's comet...

;)

anyway, my most recent post in the monta thread sorta sums up my feelings-in-total of the new front office to this point, so it's probably more appropriate in this thread than that one. i'll just link to it here:

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php/52895-Monta?p=998756&viewfull=1#post998756
 

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#52
That means the Kings, while being cognizant of cap management, can't be picky in terms of need or fit.
I don't know, I think it means that they have to be picky in terms of both need and fit. Because of being in a small market (in addition to a non-playoff contender), the FO just can't throw money at anyone who shows up (again, agreeing on cap management.) The best way for this team to build is through draft and trades. We can't just gather assets simply because we will pay, because then they will be seen as overpaid assets. We should be modeling ourselves after the San Antonio model. They really don't make splashes in free agency, but they draft intelligently and keep their young players until the time comes to trade them for either more youth or better fitting parts. I get the sense that this FO is trying to do it a little backwards.
If you overspend for need and fit, then that's a little better than just spending to acquire assets, regardless of fit or need. Spending on Landry, and potentially Ellis, shows that they are just spending to acquire assets.

If they consistently went after a SF then that would be better. I think your model would have worked had they kept the offer out for Igoudala, as that would have been an overspend, but for a position of both need and fit.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#53
hey, look at that!! a kingster post i don't entirely disagree with!!

feels a bit like unknowingly catching a glimpse of halley's comet...

;)

anyway, my most recent post in the monta thread sorta sums up my feelings-in-total of the new front office to this point, so it's probably more appropriate in this thread than that one. i'll just link to it here:

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php/52895-Monta?p=998756&viewfull=1#post998756
If the Kings acquire Ellis at what is perceived to be an overpriced contract, then my thesis is blown to smitherens. Because at least you can see currently they are attempting to accumulate assets that aren't overpaid. Vasquez and Landry fall into that category imo. We'll see. Right now they've gone into complete remodeling mode and there are boxes and furniture and stuff strewn all over the house. Looks like an absolute mess. Hopefully, they are a good designers and we are pleasantly shocked when the decorating is near completion.
 
#54
If the Kings acquire Ellis at what is perceived to be an overpriced contract, then my thesis is blown to smitherens. Because at least you can see currently they are attempting to accumulate assets that aren't overpaid. Vasquez and Landry fall into that category imo. We'll see. Right now they've gone into complete remodeling mode and there are boxes and furniture and stuff strewn all over the house. Looks like an absolute mess. Hopefully, they are a good designers and we are pleasantly shocked when the decorating is near completion.
Landry's market value last year was 4 mil per year.
6.5 mil might be mil or 2 over payment.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#55
My dream for this offseason:

A summer of 1998 type perfect storm. Hiring Adelman, trading for Webber, signing Vlade, drafting JWill and convincing Peja to cross the Atlantic. Could Vivek & co acquire the major pieces and then use subsequent years to do some reshuffling as the team becomes a playoff contender again?

My realistic hope for this offseason:

A solid draft, either re-signing Tyreke or having some real value to show for losing him either via S&T or using the capspace on a difference maker, shipping out whatever pieces we could move (Thornton, Jimmer, Salmon's ending contract, Hayes etc) with the goal of adding young players with some potential, late 1st or 2nd round draft picks and/or cap flexibility going forward and signing or trading for a small forward.

My fear going into this offseason:

Signing the wrong coach, drafting a bust, losing Tyreke for nothing, overpaying midlevel talents, not balancing the roster and in short having a terrible GM at the helm.

Early on I honestly thought we might be looking at a dream offseason. Malone seems like the right coach at the right time. And while I wasn't incredibly high on him due to his inability (at present) to create his own shot, McLemore is a major talent and could be a great pick after he fell into our laps. Then the noise that we were going hard after Iguodala made me think we could be looking at an Evans/McLemore/Iguodala trio which had the potential to be dominant.

Then we pulled the offer to Iguodala, declined to match for Tyreke and instead did a S&T for Vasquez, a pass-first PG who is a poor defender and seemingly produced such high assist numbers due to the Pelicans offensive system and who is also a free agent after next season. Worse yet, the FO didn't even really seem to want him as they pursued Calderon. Still, I had some hope that things would turn around.

The signing of Landry has me worrying that we are drifting into worst case land. Greivis and Landry will make the same salary Evans could have been retained for next season. Monta Ellis? HUH?!? How does that jibe with anything said by Malone, D'Allesandro or Vivek about how they intended to rebuild this team? And still no move for a SF? No trades to balance out the roster or even simply clear out flotsam and jetsam?

Unfortunately these moves now have me questioning the talent evaluation abilities of our front office and are casting doubt on the pick of McLemore in my mind. I'll be paying very close attention to the summer league because right now I have a Thomas Robinson sized apprehension about everything regarding this team, including our newest draftee.

The "party like it's 1999" offseason is officially gone. Will it be a solid summer or the kind that just entrenches the Kings in mediocrity for 4 more years before we attempt yet another rebuild? We'll see, but my confidence is not high.
 
#56
There really should be a middle option of 'neutral, too soon to judge', because as it stands I am sitting firmly on the fence.

I was disappointed to see Evans go, but I can understand why the front office were unwilling to pay him big bucks. The addition of a pass first point guard in Vasquez in the sign and trade deal could turn out to be a good addition, but it is too soon to tell how good he will ultimately become. So while I believe that Evans has star potential, and I am naturally disappointed that he has gone, in time this could turn out to be a good move if Vasquez continues his development and becomes a decent starting point guard.

The main negative this off season was us missing out on Iguodala. On the one hand it has turned out that Iggy's hesitation has cost him $8 million, but on the other he wanted to be sure that he was making the right decision in coming here. He wouldn't be coming to an instant contender. He would be coming to a team that might take a step towards .500, but is likely to be a good few seasons away from becoming anything more than a 7th or 8th seed. If our front office had been less pig headed, maybe he might have gone away and thought about his next career move and decided to come here - we'll never know.

The signing of Landry, he should be a good option off the bench. To contend you need depth, and Landry gives us that. Though admittedly our PF position is now stacked, much like our guards and needs thinning out. But at this time I can't criticize them for making this move without seeing what Landry brings to the team on the court.

As for the pursuit of Ellis, I don't understand this move. We don't really need to bring in another guard. As it stands we will probably go with a back court of Vasquez and McLemore, and while Ellis brings experience, I just don't see the point in bringing in a high priced guard. Personally I think we would be better off passing on Ellis and trying to find a solution to the small forward problem, because that is by far our greater need than another offensively minded, defensively lacking, over paid guard.

I guess when I go down that list it does seem somewhat negative, but I did vote for too soon to judge, but probably positive because I have faith that this front office and new ownership will take the Kings back to contention. Though that might be blind hope! :D
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#57
If the Kings acquire Ellis at what is perceived to be an overpriced contract, then my thesis is blown to smitherens. Because at least you can see currently they are attempting to accumulate assets that aren't overpaid. Vasquez and Landry fall into that category imo. We'll see. Right now they've gone into complete remodeling mode and there are boxes and furniture and stuff strewn all over the house. Looks like an absolute mess. Hopefully, they are a good designers and we are pleasantly shocked when the decorating is near completion.
If they acquire Monta while moving Hayes, Jimmer and/or Thornton, I'd be very happy with that and amazed at being able to move those guys.
 
#58
If the Kings acquire Ellis at what is perceived to be an overpriced contract, then my thesis is blown to smitherens. Because at least you can see currently they are attempting to accumulate assets that aren't overpaid. Vasquez and Landry fall into that category imo. We'll see. Right now they've gone into complete remodeling mode and there are boxes and furniture and stuff strewn all over the house. Looks like an absolute mess. Hopefully, they are a good designers and we are pleasantly shocked when the decorating is near completion.
i don't really consider landry's long-term contrct to be all that ideal. he might not be classified as "overpaid," but i certainly would have preferred if the kings had inked him to a two-year deal instead. i'd also certainly love to be "pleasantly shocked" by the end of the offseason rather than simply shocked, as i am in this moment. i can't compute the kings' interest in ellis at all, contextually speaking. if monta ellis is leaning towards atlanta, as the rumor mill is speculating, then clearly the kings are going to have to fork over a sizable contract to convince him to come here...

i hope he passes on whatever the kings put on the table. and if he doesn't, i hope the contract comes in at around $8 million per, because at least then you can say that you signed an overrated me-first scorer at less than what a great many overrated me-first scorers have been signed to in the past. but this part of the offseason makes me the most nervous, when the major free agents are all off the table, and the empty-handed teams are typically left to scramble and drastically overpay for the scraps that are left...
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#59
I don't know, I think it means that they have to be picky in terms of both need and fit. Because of being in a small market (in addition to a non-playoff contender), the FO just can't throw money at anyone who shows up (again, agreeing on cap management.) The best way for this team to build is through draft and trades. We can't just gather assets simply because we will pay, because then they will be seen as overpaid assets. We should be modeling ourselves after the San Antonio model. They really don't make splashes in free agency, but they draft intelligently and keep their young players until the time comes to trade them for either more youth or better fitting parts. I get the sense that this FO is trying to do it a little backwards.
If you overspend for need and fit, then that's a little better than just spending to acquire assets, regardless of fit or need. Spending on Landry, and potentially Ellis, shows that they are just spending to acquire assets.

If they consistently went after a SF then that would be better. I think your model would have worked had they kept the offer out for Igoudala, as that would have been an overspend, but for a position of both need and fit.
My point is that in FA they really can't be picky in terms of need or fit because as a non-playoff small market team the FAs that are in demand either are not interested at all, or may be interested at a higher price than other teams. That's a difficult situation if you have as a priority not to overpay so as to manage the cap and keep flexibility for future deals. Something has to give, and it appears that being picky about need and fit is what is giving. It appears they are making the choice that they are willing to take a player that isn't a need or even a fit if the player is a reasonable talent for a decent price. (Like I said, if they sign Ellis to a very high contract, that thesis gets blown out of the water).

Keep in mind that SA is a playoff team with a very long history of success. So it's apples/oranges when it comes to comparison with the Kings in FA. They can get deals on the cheap; the Kings can't.

Also, with respect to keeping younger talent until the right fit arises, I agree that's what the Spurs do. But if you are alluding to Evans, don't you think that the Maloofs decision not to enter into contract negotiations with Tyreke prior to his last contract year might have handcuffed the flexibility of DA? I think this point has been brought up by others and I think they could have a point. The sins of the fathers are inflicted on the sons, and all that.
 
#60
My point is that in FA they really can't be picky in terms of need or fit because as a non-playoff small market team the FAs that are in demand either are not interested at all, or may be interested at a higher price than other teams. That's a difficult situation if you have as a priority not to overpay so as to manage the cap and keep flexibility for future deals. Something has to give, and it appears that being picky about need and fit is what is giving. It appears they are making the choice that they are willing to take a player that isn't a need or even a fit if the player is a reasonable talent for a decent price. (Like I said, if they sign Ellis to a very high contract, that thesis gets blown out of the water).

Keep in mind that SA is a playoff team with a very long history of success. So it's apples/oranges when it comes to comparison with the Kings in FA. They can get deals on the cheap; the Kings can't.

Also, with respect to keeping younger talent until the right fit arises, I agree that's what the Spurs do. But if you are alluding to Evans, don't you think that the Maloofs decision not to enter into contract negotiations with Tyreke prior to his last contract year might have handcuffed the flexibility of DA? I think this point has been brought up by others and I think they could have a point. The sins of the fathers are inflicted on the sons, and all that.
yup. this was, of course, the biggest contributor to evans' eventual departure from sacramento. the maloofs put the new regime in a tough spot, because PDA had to make a snap decision on evans just a couple of weeks after taking the job. i still maintain that you have to re-sign him, because i see no more flexibility in a player like monta ellis (who has the disadvantage of being inefficient, already 27 years old, and unlikable) at a likely $8-10 million per than i see in tyreke evans (who at least has the advantage of being efficient, only 23 years old, and likable) at $11 million per. you get what you pay for, and all that...