from ESPN Insider: Peja, others seek trades

M

Markezi

Guest
#32
ReinadelosReys said:
So in your opinion that would be ok? Please explain this to me, because you just said " It's a dangerous path to think that a player is ever more important than a team or an organization, and it happens all the time. I kind of feel it's our duty to acknowledge this and recognize it when it starts to happen (and to speak out)." in another thread. The Kings should move Webb to make Peja happy?
My contention has never been that's THE reason to do it. It's simply one of the many benefits of moving Webber. Besides, until a month ago, I don't remember Peja EVER doing anything that showed he wasn't a team player or didn't display integrity - do you? That whining outbreak, thankfully, has so far been an anomoly as a player. I'd like for the Kings to keep Bibby, Miller, Christie, BJax and Songalia too. Does that insinuate that I put each of them individually ahead of the team? No - they've exemplified "team" in a positive manner to me.

I do contend that Peja has been a big baby about this whole thing though. I'd prefer that he shut his mouth and take it up with Webber in the locker room, then tear it up on the court. Whining and complaining to the media accomplishes nothing other than making your fans bitter. Still, I imagine it's tough to keep your mouth closed when your team's self-appointed, non-winning leader repeatedly bags on you to everyone else.
 
#33
Markezi said:
[A]My contention has never been that's THE reason to do it. It's simply one of the many benefits of moving Webber. Besides, until a month ago, I don't remember Peja EVER doing anything that showed he wasn't a team player or didn't display integrity - do you? That whining outbreak, thankfully, has so far been an anomoly as a player. I'd like for the Kings to keep Bibby, Miller, Christie, BJax and Songalia too. Does that insinuate that I put each of them individually ahead of the team? No - they've exemplified "team" in a positive manner to me.

I do contend that Peja has been a big baby about this whole thing though. I'd prefer that he shut his mouth and take it up with Webber in the locker room, then tear it up on the court. Whining and complaining to the media accomplishes nothing other than making your fans bitter.[C] Still, I imagine it's tough to keep your mouth closed when your team's self-appointed, non-winning leader repeatedly bags on you to everyone else.

A:So again, you are saying that its ok for Peja to do it? Who died and made Peja God? When was he ever appointed the be all and end all of the Sacramento Kings to be allowed this type of exemption from the "no one is bigger or better than the team "concept?

B: That my friend, we can agree on

C: Examples?....assuming you are talking about Webb and Peja?;)
 
M

Markezi

Guest
#34
I'm not sure I am understanding the connection you're making with point "A." Peja has never publicly said that he wants Webber gone. In fact, he has stated that his decision has nothing to do with Webber (although we all know that's untrue).

Webber, however, has stated that he supports Peja leaving.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#36
Markezi said:
Webber, however, has stated that he supports Peja leaving.
Unless I missed something, no he hasn't. Peja's FANS have said Webb wants him out. Webb has never said that. In fact in the infamous interview Webb actually went out of his way to give Peja credit.

Now I think realistically if Peja is demanding a trade unless Webb is gotten rid of or something similar, that Webb would probably inevitably welcome his departure. I also think its realistic to imagine that Webb wanting a tougher team may well mean he has doubts about Peja. But he's never taken those doubts and turned them into public campaigning for Peja's departure. Or even private campaigning as far as is known.
 
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M

Markezi

Guest
#37
Bricklayer said:
Unless I missed something, no he hasn't. Peja's FANS have said Webb wants him out. Webb has never said that. In fact in the infamous interview Webb actually went out of his way to give Peja credit.

Now I think realistically if Peja is demanding a trade unless Webb is gotten rid of or something similar, that Webb would probably inevitably welcome his departure. I also think its realistic to imagine that Webb wanting a tougher team may well mean he has doubts about Peja. But he's never taken those doubts and turned them into public campaigning for Peja's departure. Or even private campaigning as far as is known.
Actually he has - see the first post in the "Kings Still Have Work to Do" thread - private campaigning.
 
#38
Markezi said:
Actually he has - see the first post in the "Kings Still Have Work to Do" thread - private campaigning.
An article by Chad Ford that says, "Webber privately supports the idea" is a lot different than "Webber, however, has stated that he supports Peja leaving." Why? Because you don't know that Webber stated that he supports Peja leaving, you only know that Chad Ford, who has been wrong on many occasions, claims that Webber privately supports the idea. Even if it is true, which is certainly possible, you write it in your post as fact and don't qualify it with the very important information that it came from a single line in a Chad Ford column.

That is why you and others who don't like Webber are ridiculed in this forum... not because you don't like him, but because many of you lose credibility with comments like that.

By the way, Bobby Jackson should be gone also, since he's trying to run Peja out of town. He even publicly stated that Peja should leave. There are quotes to prove it!

I don't actually believe that, it just shows how easy it is to twist facts to your liking. If I said that and meant it, I would get ridiculed also. In the future, if people claim that an anti-Webber stance isn't tolerated around here, this would be a great example to show that it isn't the anti-Webber stance that is the problem.
 
#39
uolj said:
In the future, if people claim that an anti-Webber stance isn't tolerated around here, this would be a great example to show that it isn't the anti-Webber stance that is the problem.
You're right about only one thing in this statement - it isn't the anti-Webber stance that is the problem.:p
 
M

Markezi

Guest
#40
uolj said:
An article by Chad Ford that says, "Webber privately supports the idea" is a lot different than "Webber, however, has stated that he supports Peja leaving." Why? Because you don't know that Webber stated that he supports Peja leaving, you only know that Chad Ford, who has been wrong on many occasions, claims that Webber privately supports the idea. Even if it is true, which is certainly possible, you write it in your post as fact and don't qualify it with the very important information that it came from a single line in a Chad Ford column.

That is why you and others who don't like Webber are ridiculed in this forum... not because you don't like him, but because many of you lose credibility with comments like that.

By the way, Bobby Jackson should be gone also, since he's trying to run Peja out of town. He even publicly stated that Peja should leave. There are quotes to prove it!

I don't actually believe that, it just shows how easy it is to twist facts to your liking. If I said that and meant it, I would get ridiculed also. In the future, if people claim that an anti-Webber stance isn't tolerated around here, this would be a great example to show that it isn't the anti-Webber stance that is the problem.
Your agenda is flawed. Please re-read through this thread. The initial post clearly outlines that Peja is unhappy and wants to get traded but refused to comment why (including his agent) and ESPN says however that it shouldn't be a secret that it has to do with Webber's mouth. Then ESPN (in the other thread I referenced) states, "Stojakovic is publicly demanding to be traded, and Webber privately supports the idea."

Let's break it down:
Peja: Apparently wants to be traded because he's upset with Webber, but is neither publicly nor privately campaigning.
Chris: Apparently supports Peja to be traded, has publicly and privately questioned his play, and is privately campaigning for Peja's departure.
Markezi: "Webber has stated that he supports Peja leaving." Hmm - seems pretty accurate to me based upon the articles I was referencing.
Bricklayer: Webber has never privately campaigned for Peja to leave.
Markezi: Clarifying - "Actually he has - see the first post in the "Kings Still Have Work to Do" thread - private campaigning."

Seems pretty cut and dry - where did your analysis of my take go wrong?

Also, opinions are not "FACTS" as you state, they are, suprisingly perhaps, opinions. Maybe instead of misdirecting your animosity towards me for pointing out a very interesting component of these two ESPN articles, your time would better spent actually discussing the probability (as you stated) that it IS true, and the effect that has on the Kings. That's all I was trying to do. Escalating it to a personal attack on my intentions (as if I had any over and above posting my opinions just like everyone else) is unecessary.
 
#41
Markezi said:
Your agenda is flawed. Please re-read through this thread. The initial post clearly outlines that Peja is unhappy and wants to get traded but refused to comment why (including his agent) and ESPN says however that it shouldn't be a secret that it has to do with Webber's mouth. Then ESPN (in the other thread I referenced) states, "Stojakovic is publicly demanding to be traded, and Webber privately supports the idea."

Let's break it down:
Peja: Apparently wants to be traded because he's upset with Webber, but is neither publicly nor privately campaigning.
Chris: Apparently supports Peja to be traded, has publicly and privately questioned his play, and is privately campaigning for Peja's departure.
Markezi: "Webber has stated that he supports Peja leaving." Hmm - seems pretty accurate to me based upon the articles I was referencing.
Bricklayer: Webber has never privately campaigned for Peja to leave.
Markezi: Clarifying - "Actually he has - see the first post in the "Kings Still Have Work to Do" thread - private campaigning."

Seems pretty cut and dry - where did your analysis of my take go wrong?

Also, opinions are not "FACTS" as you state, they are, suprisingly perhaps, opinions. Maybe instead of misdirecting your animosity towards me for pointing out a very interesting component of these two ESPN articles, your time would better spent actually discussing the probability (as you stated) that it IS true, and the effect that has on the Kings. That's all I was trying to do. Escalating it to a personal attack on my intentions (as if I had any over and above posting my opinions just like everyone else) is unecessary.
Apparently you are neglecting to note the opinions you are throwing out there. In your opinion you believe that Peja asked for the trade because of CWebb. You also summice that Chad Ford's ramblings are true that Webb privately affrims the trade. (Privately he made it public to Chad ford...how stupid)
 
M

Markezi

Guest
#42
Heuge said:
Apparently you are neglecting to note the opinions you are throwing out there. In your opinion you believe that Peja asked for the trade because of CWebb. You also summice that Chad Ford's ramblings are true that Webb privately affrims the trade. (Privately he made it public to Chad ford...how stupid)
Right - my opinion was that that was probably the biggest reason he asked for a trade (along with Vlade's departure). And my opinion is that Chris probably does support Peja leaving due to what he said after the playoff loss.

My point was that I think it's ridiculous to say that I state my opinions as FACT when they are only opinions - based on the same information that everyone else has.

What's your point?

I guess I should take it as a compliment that I get special treatment on this board that, unlike others, my posts are assumed to be factual!
 
#44
Markezi said:
Right - my opinion was that that was probably the biggest reason he asked for a trade (along with Vlade's departure). And my opinion is that Chris probably does support Peja leaving due to what he said after the playoff loss.

My point was that I think it's ridiculous to say that I state my opinions as FACT when they are only opinions - based on the same information that everyone else has.

What's your point?

I guess I should take it as a compliment that I get special treatment on this board that, unlike others, my posts are assumed to be factual!
You should really clarify that it is your OPINION that Webber does support Peja leaving. From your other previous post you stated "Webber, however, has stated that he supports Peja leaving." You're implying that this notion specically came out of Webber's mouth, which is not true. It is your opiion that he felt that way and that he revealed it to Ford.
 
#45
First, I have no animosity towards you. It can be frustrating at times that people don't understand what seems so obvious to me. I also don't believe I attacked you personally in anyway. I just want to make that clear.

Now, your post provides several examples of what I am talking about. Let's break it down:

Markezi said:
Peja: Apparently wants to be traded because he's upset with Webber, but is neither publicly nor privately campaigning.
Chris: Apparently supports Peja to be traded, has publicly and privately questioned his play, and is privately campaigning for Peja's departure.
These are beliefs based on what we've heard, they are not facts. You used the word "apparently", which helps, although I don't think those assertions are apparent at all. At least here you attempted to make it clear that these are your inferences based on what you've read, rather than actual facts that were reported and confirmed.

Markezi said:
Bricklayer: Webber has never privately campaigned for Peja to leave.
That is a twist of what Bricklayer said, and it leaves out important parts of his post. "As far as is known" Webber has never privately campaigned for Peja to leave. You might take Chad Ford's article as evidence, but many of us don't, and Bricklayer obviously didn't when he posted, so leaving that part out is a slight mischaracterization.

Markezi said:
Seems pretty cut and dry - where did your analysis of my take go wrong?
The real question is did you really understand my point? Others obviously did, as several people have explained it here before me. My point was that you put it out there as a confirmed fact that "Webber, however, has stated that he supports Peja leaving."

If somebody read your post, they would not be able to tell if that comment was based on an actual public comment made by Webber, or by a rumor printed by a columnist known to have been wrong with that type of information before. There is a big difference. Because your post made it sound like the first one, you were misrepresenting facts - which is why you get "attacked".

Markezi said:
Also, opinions are not "FACTS" as you state, they are, suprisingly perhaps, opinions.
When did I state that opinions are FACTS? Either you misunderstood me, or you misrepresented what I said.

Markezi said:
Maybe instead of misdirecting your animosity towards me for pointing out a very interesting component of these two ESPN articles, your time would better spent actually discussing the probability (as you stated)
Again, I said it was possible, not probable - whether you do this on purpose or not is irrelevent, it happens a lot in these discussions, and I believe that is the reason several members of this forum think that there is an anti-anti-Webber bias.

Markezi said:
that it IS true, and the effect that has on the Kings. That's all I was trying to do. Escalating it to a personal attack on my intentions (as if I had any over and above posting my opinions just like everyone else) is unecessary.
Maybe you should put it in your signature that every comment you make is just what you are inferring based on what you've read. That way we won't misunderstand you anymore, and we won't call you on the things you claim that we don't think are true. This is not a personal attack, this is an attempt at an explanation. I don't think you are a bad person and I have no animosity towards you or your board personality. I write all this with a smile on my face. I do wish that you or others could understand the point I am trying to make. I just don't like the misunderstanding.
 
#46
There has been no evidence that Webber wants Peja to leave. He directly said (I was going to paraphrase, but I'll post the direct quote):

And what I mean by those comments, those who do not work as hard as me, I do not want to play with. You can take that to mean anybody you want it to take. If you do not shoot (extra) before or after practice, I don't want to play with you. If you're always out of shape, I don't want to play with you. If you don't care when we lose and you're always giggling and laughing, I do not want to play with you. If you're giggling before the game, a Game 7 before we play the Lakers, and you're giggling and laughing and (bleep) is funny, I don't want to play with you. If you think because you're in Sacramento and because people like you that you're a better basketball player than you really are, I don't want to play with you. And it's that simple. Peja (Stojakovic) is a hard worker.
He also said this about Peja:
Q: Most people thought you were referring to Peja, but you've already said he is a very hard worker. So, who were you referring to?

A: I'm the first one that said (Peja) was the best shooter in the league. … I pumped Peja up. If there is anything I'm good at, it's being an encourager. Players that play around me play better. … I'll make a grape feel like it is a bottle of wine. And (Peja) is Napa by himself, so in no way am I referring to him. … You're going to miss shots. You're going to make shots. That's not it. That's why I said it's all about preparation. And Peja shoots. He shoots a lot. He practices a lot.
Q: Were you aware that people thought you were criticizing Peja and did you call him and say anything to him?

A: At the end of the game, I was changing in the dressing room, 10 seconds before I went to the media room, and I went in there and kissed Peja on the cheek because I know he played hard. I'm not going to criticize Peja because I know how he shoots and know how he works. I've been on him for rebounding and toughness and I've been on him for that to his face, so why would I do it in the media room?

But I'm not trying to call out Peja.
And now Chad "The Insider" Ford (note my sarcasm) comes along and drops a line about Webber "privately" wanting Peja gone, and it's the undeniable and historically supported truth? Right, because Chad Ford (not ESPN; Chad Ford) is more privy to the feelings and inner workings of the Kings and their staff than Martin McNeal and the Sacramento Bee are...

Give me a break.

In fact, Chad Ford completely contradicts the above quotes from the Bee when he says: "Webber insinuated afterward that Stojakovic and Divac weren't hard workers..." How does he have any credibility? Earlier I called it "creative license," but that's a bold-faced lie.

In a different vein, though, it's definitely a possibility that Chris Webber doesn't want to play with Peja Stojakovic. I'm not writing it off; I don't think anyone else is, either. But he hasn't said anything publicly that would indicate that. He's not the one asking for a trade for some unknown reason. He's not the one having his agent do all his dirty work. He's the one giving Peja praise in the press, the one giving the candid interviews, expressing himself for his fans to hear, whether they want to hear it or not.

That's campaigning, but what Peja is doing isn't? "Well slap me around and call me Susan..."

I hate that this has to be Webber vs. Stojakovic, but that's the way it is I guess. And I don't want it to seem like I'd rather have Webber, or I think Webber is handling himself perfectly, or anything like that. I'm not a blind supporter, and I don't place anyone above the good of the team. But I don't see how you can take the little two-line blurbs from Chad Ford of ESPN Insider and say "Chris Webber privately campaigns for Peja to be traded," especially when 1) Chad Ford is about as reliable as the cars that bear his name, 2) there have been no "reports" from any Sacramento-based "reporters" (note that Ailene Voisin is left out of this group) that insinuate that Webber does so, and 3) Webber himself said that he wants to play with Peja.

Maybe I'm being obtuse, but again - I just don't understand this.
 
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#47
Superman said:
There has been no evidence that Webber wants Peja to leave. He directly said (I was going to paraphrase, but I'll post the direct quote):

He also said this about Peja:And now Chad "The Insider" Ford (note my sarcasm) comes along and drops a line about Webber "privately" wanting Peja gone, and it's the undeniable and historically supported truth? Right, because Chad Ford (not ESPN; Chad Ford) is more privy to the feelings and inner workings of the Kings and their staff than Martin McNeal and the Sacramento Bee are...

Give me a break.

In fact, Chad Ford completely contradicts the above quotes from the Bee when he says: "Webber insinuated afterward that Stojakovic and Divac weren't hard workers..." How does he have any credibility? Earlier I called it "creative license," but that's a bold-faced lie.

In a different vein, though, it's definitely a possibility that Chris Webber doesn't want to play with Peja Stojakovic. I'm not writing it off; I don't think anyone else is, either. But he hasn't said anything publicly that would indicate that. He's not the one asking for a trade for some unknown reason. He's not the one having his agent do all his dirty work. He's the one giving Peja praise in the press, the one giving the candid interviews, expressing himself for his fans to hear, whether they want to hear it or not.

That's campaigning, but what Peja is doing isn't? "Well slap me around and call me Susan..."

I hate that this has to be Webber vs. Stojakovic, but that's the way it is I guess. And I don't want it to seem like I'd rather have Webber, or I think Webber is handling himself perfectly, or anything like that. I'm not a blind supporter, and I don't place anyone above the good of the team. But I don't see how you can take the little two-line blurbs from Chad Ford of ESPN Insider and say "Chris Webber privately campaigns for Peja to be traded," especially when 1) Chad Ford is about as reliable as the cars that bear his name, 2) there have been no "reports" from any Sacramento-based "reporters" (note that Ailene Voisin is left out of this group) that insinuate that Webber does so, and 3) Webber himself said that he wants to play with Peja.

Maybe I'm being obtuse, but again - I just don't understand this.
Word!
 
M

Markezi

Guest
#48
uolj - I hear what you're saying - I definitely apologize if I came across to you as the "expert" on the behind the scenes conversations among Webber/Peja. My takes were only intended to be that - takes. I think things got twisted up in there somewhere as we started focus in on specific lines rather than intended meaning. I totally take responsibility for not typing exactly what I'm trying to say...doing so on a forum board (or in email) can be very difficult sometimes.

And Superman - I'm not sure where this turned into a Webber vs. Peja thing either. I just re-read through this entire thread and I'm still confused...my only point from the beginning was that I would bet that should Webber be traded, Peja's trade demands end, and perhaps even a contract extension would be in the works. Beyond that...
 
#49
Markezi said:
uolj - I hear what you're saying - I definitely apologize if I came across to you as the "expert" on the behind the scenes conversations among Webber/Peja. My takes were only intended to be that - takes. I think things got twisted up in there somewhere as we started focus in on specific lines rather than intended meaning. I totally take responsibility for not typing exactly what I'm trying to say...doing so on a forum board (or in email) can be very difficult sometimes.
Thanks for that. I agree it can definitely be very difficult. I think I understand your takes better now.
 
#50
Markezi said:
And Superman - I'm not sure where this turned into a Webber vs. Peja thing either. I just re-read through this entire thread and I'm still confused...my only point from the beginning was that I would bet that should Webber be traded, Peja's trade demands end, and perhaps even a contract extension would be in the works. Beyond that...
Beyond that, you claimed that Webber privately campaigns for Peja to be traded. Which is what I took issue with.

And it seemed to be Webber vs. Peja with the comment that Peja just asked for a trade, and Webber seems to be trying to Peja out of town. That's what it seemed like you were insinuating.

But either way, that's irrelevant. Chad Ford is a douche anyways.
 
M

Markezi

Guest
#52
Superman said:
But either way, that's irrelevant. Chad Ford is a douche anyways.
Well...and I would still contend that we all have our biases, and when people argue that a claim is ridiculous simply because they disagree with it (not necessarily targeting you about this), I like to challenge them to discuss the message without getting sidetracked by the messanger. I still think the contention in that article is absolutely possible, if not probable. How we interpret it from there is anyone's guess.
 
#53
Markezi said:
Well...and I would still contend that we all have our biases, and when people argue that a claim is ridiculous simply because they disagree with it (not necessarily targeting you about this), I like to challenge them to discuss the message without getting sidetracked by the messanger. I still think the contention in that article is absolutely possible, if not probable. How we interpret it from there is anyone's guess.
I think I did discuss the message.

And I'm not sidetracked by the messenger; the messenger plays a large part in how viable the message is. Since it's Chad Ford and he isn't more privy to the inner workings of the Kings than Marty McNeal or Mark Kreidler are, I'm not going to put too much stock in a two-line blurb in an article that has no verifiability. Especially when he contradicts what the Bee has printed by saying that Chris insinuated that he doesn't want to play with Peja because he isn't a hard worker; Chris said the exact opposite, and insinuated that he does want to play with Peja.

I don't have to go much further than that to have reason to dismiss his entire article.

And, as a side point, I don't think you discussed the Webber interview without allowing your own personal bias to cloud your judgment. In fact, I believe you said that Bobby Jackson could have made these statements and you'd have supported them 100%. That's neither here nor there, but we can all (including myself) benefit from your advice.
 
M

Markezi

Guest
#54
Like I said - we all have our biases. Including me.

(Also - as I pointed out, I wasn't referring to you in that post.)