Fox AND Haliburton??

Fox and Hali ceiling is....

  • Contenders

    Votes: 5 10.4%
  • Perennial Playoff lock

    Votes: 9 18.8%
  • First round fodder/Play-in chaser

    Votes: 22 45.8%
  • 10th pick treadmill

    Votes: 10 20.8%
  • Tanktacular

    Votes: 2 4.2%

  • Total voters
    48
#1
So assuming I didnt just jinx a trade into existence, how confident are we feeling in a Fox/Hali duo going forward?

If all breaks right (Fox getting a 3 point shot, or fully embracing the mid range), I think that core could top out as a perennial middling playoff team, a la Portland, which wouldn't be the end of the world.

Personally, I don't think Fox and Haliburton are the problem with this team. But even if they were I'd rank them after ownership, coaching, horrible defense (so coaching), lack of legit bigs, lack of legit wings, management.. So if some headway is made on coaching and roster construction, I think this team might have something.
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#3
Who is to say. Monte running it back hurts and stacking a PG onto his PG's is going to hurt. Just that little bit of extra cap and a lottery pick matters. He has to build a team that is total modern game. Not big, old school, tiny court and spacing basketball.
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#5
I mean it’s a team wide poll with only two of 15 guys accounted for????
If Fox and Hali are the guys, they need spacing, a pick and roll big that can preferably shoot and protect the rim, and a lot of switchable players with size on the wing. Anything else is pointless.
 
#6
It is so excruciatingly difficult to hit a home run in the draft if you’re NOT the Kings with a long rich history of botched picks. We manage to get TWO of them and everyone wants to trade one away. Development is not a static, all or nothing proposition…it takes time. Not as much time as hitting another home run in the draft though.
 

Capt. Factorial

Trade Rumors = 0.00 Bits Of Information
Staff member
#9
I know it's not a perfect analogy, but I suspect that - barring a third star in the mix - a Fox/Hali one-two punch is destined to end up no better than a Lillard/McCollum team, likely a bit worse. Without a third star, you're probably looking at a ceiling of back-half of the playoffs most of the time but never quite good enough to get to the top.

The question is where that third star comes from. Lotto luck and good drafting would probably be the most likely route.
 
#10
I’d like to keep Hali and Mitchell and use Fox and everybody else(including picks) to make something dramatic happen. What that is will be up to Monte but I’ve had it with this core

I just don’t think Fox and Halliburton compliment each other. I thought they could but im not seeing it. I think Haliburton can thrive next to other ball handlers but im beginning to think Fox has trouble getting into a rhythm if he has to split the duties. I remember he and Bogdan weren’t great next to each other either. I don’t see it as a winning tandem.
 
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#11
I’ve been saying it for awhile…..build around these 2 guys. These guys are good enough. Get the right pieces around them. I can’t even guess how high they can go because they can’t do it themselves. Need legit wings around them. Need legit big who can control the paint and guard the pick and roll.
I think this analysis is right on. Now tank the rest of the season so we can get a good pick.
 
#12
If they get Myles Turner or something and two decent switchable wings, yeah it's probably Portland.

Fox isn't Lillard but I think Haliburton can match McCollum at least if he hits his ceiling and they're not nearly as redundant as those two. Portland's best team in the Lillard era ran out our very own Mo Harkless alongside Aminu, and had wing depth. Those names weren't all that impressive on paper, but over the years they went to the same forward mold and abundant surplus of them at that.

But yeah, without a frontcourt star better than them, then the ceiling is capped.
 
#13
There are logistical reasons why it might be difficult to build around them in Sacramento which doesn't pull many/any top free agents and has notoriously crappy lottery luck but theoretically any team is one star player away from contending. Both guys can score, pass, and defend when motivated. That's not a bad foundation to start from but we clearly need a complimentary star in the frontcourt or at SF and the other two starters need to be average or better. Our best shot at pulling a Phoenix would be if we get a high draft pick and find our complimentary star that way or if Bagley decides to bulk up and play with some more physicality or if Monte trades miscellaneous parts and finds an undiscovered gem on someone else's bench. Regardless we probably won't see it coming when it does happen cause that's usually how it goes.
 
#14
The Halliburton Fox core has played together for….. one and a half years. It still has potential to be more but we really need to hit on our picks.

Mitchell has some promise but if we had drafted Sengun you would have 3 guys to build around IMO instead of trying to squeeze a third guard somewhere. Even if we had the same record with Sengun we would potentially have 3 starting positions filled. If we end up picking 8th we could snag a guy like Keegan Murray.

Hali
Fox
Barnes
Murray
Sengun

still, if Davion is a all nba defender and becomes a net positive offensively maybe our trajectory changes. If a big trade isn’t available they are going to have to get really creative
 
#16
It is so excruciatingly difficult to hit a home run in the draft if you’re NOT the Kings with a long rich history of botched picks. We manage to get TWO of them and everyone wants to trade one away. Development is not a static, all or nothing proposition…it takes time. Not as much time as hitting another home run in the draft though.
The problem to consider is guards are the easiest to find. Toronto got Van Vleet as an undrafted free agent. Lakers won with Championship with Caruso who was also undrafted.

Finding a top forward like Middleton is a much more difficult process.
 
#17
The Halliburton Fox core has played together for….. one and a half years. It still has potential to be more but we really need to hit on our picks.

Mitchell has some promise but if we had drafted Sengun you would have 3 guys to build around IMO instead of trying to squeeze a third guard somewhere. Even if we had the same record with Sengun we would potentially have 3 starting positions filled. If we end up picking 8th we could snag a guy like Keegan Murray.

Hali
Fox
Barnes
Murray
Sengun

still, if Davion is a all nba defender and becomes a net positive offensively maybe our trajectory changes. If a big trade isn’t available they are going to have to get really creative
Crap if we had just traded Barnes last year Sengun was picked with the Celtics 1st Round pick!

We could have had

Fox
Haliburton
Nesmith
Wagner
Sengun
 
#18
The problem with FOX and Haliburton is almost like the Steph Curry and D'Angelo Russell dilemma, that's why Warriors traded him...they don't need another ballhandler on the court at the same time. Kings need another great player that isn't PG and shoot well. They have Buddy Hield but he can only shoot and suck at everything else (this experience has gone on too long and did not work). My point is they don't need two awesome PGs as a starter...it doesn't work because it reduces the other player's roles. And getting Simmons doesn't work either because you will end up with ONCE AGAIN two PGs. Either you get Simmons and trade both Haliburton and Fox for another star in addition to Simmons...something like Haliburton + Hield for Anthony Davis will work.
 
#19
The Halliburton Fox core has played together for….. one and a half years. It still has potential to be more but we really need to hit on our picks.

Mitchell has some promise but if we had drafted Sengun you would have 3 guys to build around IMO instead of trying to squeeze a third guard somewhere. Even if we had the same record with Sengun we would potentially have 3 starting positions filled. If we end up picking 8th we could snag a guy like Keegan Murray.

Hali
Fox
Barnes
Murray
Sengun

still, if Davion is a all nba defender and becomes a net positive offensively maybe our trajectory changes. If a big trade isn’t available they are going to have to get really creative
Part of what scares me is that the Haliburton/Fox core is not just losing games at the standard Kings rate, but they've lost games against bottom dweller teams and teams that have had their top 2 or 3 players out due to covid protocols. It's like they're way wayyy behind where they should be.

I agree that a year and a half isn't much time, especially when a player was a rookie for a year of it. We know for sure that Fox/Buddy/Barnes is a losing trio. Definitely enough evidence there. Small sample size, but a Fox led Kings with no Hali just lost against the Rockets and Pistons. That shouldn't happen.

I'm souring a bit on Fox myself. Not because I think he's the source of the Kings problems but because he just doesn't have the impact that we were hoping he would. If I could get something of equal value for him, I'd probably do it because I've seen enough out of him to realize that he is definitely not a #1 and potentially not even a #2 on a playoff team.

At a quick glance, it doesn't seem to me like it matters a ton whether Fox plays or not when it comes to wins and losses. In Luke's first year, they went 9-9 when Fox didn't play. I don't count last year as much because he missed the end of the season when the Kings were playing tanking teams and had a very easy schedule but they were 7-5 during that time. This year they are 1-3 without him. All small sample sizes but it just doesn't seem like he puts a stamp on the game when it comes to whether they win or lose.

It's hard to even single Fox out because it doesn't seem like it matters no matter who is out and who is playing. I guess the point is that they just need to change things up because this thing just isn't working.
 
#20
Part of what scares me is that the Haliburton/Fox core is not just losing games at the standard Kings rate, but they've lost games against bottom dweller teams and teams that have had their top 2 or 3 players out due to covid protocols. It's like they're way wayyy behind where they should be.

I agree that a year and a half isn't much time, especially when a player was a rookie for a year of it. We know for sure that Fox/Buddy/Barnes is a losing trio. Definitely enough evidence there. Small sample size, but a Fox led Kings with no Hali just lost against the Rockets and Pistons. That shouldn't happen.

I'm souring a bit on Fox myself. Not because I think he's the source of the Kings problems but because he just doesn't have the impact that we were hoping he would. If I could get something of equal value for him, I'd probably do it because I've seen enough out of him to realize that he is definitely not a #1 and potentially not even a #2 on a playoff team.

At a quick glance, it doesn't seem to me like it matters a ton whether Fox plays or not when it comes to wins and losses. In Luke's first year, they went 9-9 when Fox didn't play. I don't count last year as much because he missed the end of the season when the Kings were playing tanking teams and had a very easy schedule but they were 7-5 during that time. This year they are 1-3 without him. All small sample sizes but it just doesn't seem like he puts a stamp on the game when it comes to whether they win or lose.

It's hard to even single Fox out because it doesn't seem like it matters no matter who is out and who is playing. I guess the point is that they just need to change things up because this thing just isn't working.
I actually think Fox has the most impact on the Kings…just negatively. When a team like the Pistons are averaging 101, but they drop 133 on the Kings without their best player, that’s the impact that Fox is having on the game. Other teams don’t rate Fox, because they know he doesn’t understand pace, he can’t shoot, needs the ball in his hands to be at his most effective, and his stats are inflated.

If both Hali and Fox are on the Kings long term, Fox should be moved to the bench. Then he can run as much as he wants without needing to worry about his other four teammates.
 
#21
I don't really like grading players based on team wins and losses. That's almost like grading pitchers based on wins in baseball. It's not as extreme because in baseball the pitching only accounts for half the game and then you have the matter of defense around them as well. You can be an elite pitcher and have a losing record. I also think you can be an elite NBA player and not be able to win if everything else around you is detrimental.

Case in point: In the second Houston game Alvin Gentry decided to go extreme small ball with four and even 5 guard lineups (briefly) and we did a lot of chucking to the point that Houston ended up with 43 defensive rebounds. In the Detroit game, three players (Bey, Olynyk, and CoJo) got absurdly hot in the second half and stole the game. We already know that we have no answer defensively at the SF position right now and the only guy who was making a dent in Olynyk's scoring barrage was Bagley who Gentry just can't stand for some reason. These are not problems that one player is going to solve. The only solution that makes sense to me is to fix the defense first and the only way we do that is by trading for or drafting stoppers at the forward, wing, and center positions and then actually playing them.
 
#22
I actually think Fox has the most impact on the Kings…just negatively. When a team like the Pistons are averaging 101, but they drop 133 on the Kings without their best player, that’s the impact that Fox is having on the game. Other teams don’t rate Fox, because they know he doesn’t understand pace, he can’t shoot, needs the ball in his hands to be at his most effective, and his stats are inflated.

If both Hali and Fox are on the Kings long term, Fox should be moved to the bench. Then he can run as much as he wants without needing to worry about his other four teammates.
Come on, this is ridiculous. How is it Fox's fault that Detroit scores 133 points on us. Bey and Olynyk combined for 52 points. Which PG in the league is locking those two up?
 
#23
If it's Fox and Hali, we still need a superstar. They are probably pretty good as a #2 and #3 option. As a 1/2 combo for our team, i just don't see it.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#24
I actually think Fox has the most impact on the Kings…just negatively. When a team like the Pistons are averaging 101, but they drop 133 on the Kings without their best player, that’s the impact that Fox is having on the game. Other teams don’t rate Fox, because they know he doesn’t understand pace, he can’t shoot, needs the ball in his hands to be at his most effective, and his stats are inflated.

If both Hali and Fox are on the Kings long term, Fox should be moved to the bench. Then he can run as much as he wants without needing to worry about his other four teammates.
This is such a bad take
 
#25
Part of what scares me is that the Haliburton/Fox core is not just losing games at the standard Kings rate, but they've lost games against bottom dweller teams and teams that have had their top 2 or 3 players out due to covid protocols. It's like they're way wayyy behind where they should be.

I agree that a year and a half isn't much time, especially when a player was a rookie for a year of it. We know for sure that Fox/Buddy/Barnes is a losing trio. Definitely enough evidence there. Small sample size, but a Fox led Kings with no Hali just lost against the Rockets and Pistons. That shouldn't happen.

I'm souring a bit on Fox myself. Not because I think he's the source of the Kings problems but because he just doesn't have the impact that we were hoping he would. If I could get something of equal value for him, I'd probably do it because I've seen enough out of him to realize that he is definitely not a #1 and potentially not even a #2 on a playoff team.

At a quick glance, it doesn't seem to me like it matters a ton whether Fox plays or not when it comes to wins and losses. In Luke's first year, they went 9-9 when Fox didn't play. I don't count last year as much because he missed the end of the season when the Kings were playing tanking teams and had a very easy schedule but they were 7-5 during that time. This year they are 1-3 without him. All small sample sizes but it just doesn't seem like he puts a stamp on the game when it comes to whether they win or lose.

It's hard to even single Fox out because it doesn't seem like it matters no matter who is out and who is playing. I guess the point is that they just need to change things up because this thing just isn't working.
Agree with this. It's not his basketball talent. He's the most talented player on the team. However, when you're a #1 option, leadership and personality matter. That's where the impact comes from. He needs to be a leader of men. A player other players want to play hard for or not want to disappoint him.

I do not believe the losing is Fox's fault at all. I blame the organization for not building correctly and giving the leadership responsibilities to a guy who doesn't have natural leader qualities.
 
#26
Come on, this is ridiculous. How is it Fox's fault that Detroit scores 133 points on us. Bey and Olynyk combined for 52 points. Which PG in the league is locking those two up?
First, Detroit represents opposing teams the last few years, who score 30% to 50% more than their average.
Second, it’s the volume. Yea, Fox gets good raw numbers, but it doesn’t mean sh*t when the other team is scoring non-stop on you.

It’s no different than what the Niners are going to do to Rodgers on Saturday. They’re going to run the ball, control the pace, and keep the ball away from the league’s best qb. After 5 years of losing, it’s fair to ask whether Fox is capable of controlling pace and whether he’s willing to change in order to win. Dude is fools gold.
 
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#28
This isn’t tennis or golf. It’s a team sport. If Cade and cojo scored 30 a piece, I’d agree with you. But fox wasn’t guarding bey and KO. You know, the players that were dominating us? You admitted to not watching the whole game so I can understand you making assumptions but multiple people have said you are wrong about this game. You gotta choose your battles man. This one ain’t it.
 
#29
This isn’t tennis or golf. It’s a team sport. If Cade and cojo scored 30 a piece, I’d agree with you. But fox wasn’t guarding bey and KO. You know, the players that were dominating us? You admitted to not watching the whole game so I can understand you making assumptions but multiple people have said you are wrong about this game. You gotta choose your battles man. This one ain’t it.
My data set is years of teams scoring on the Kings. Again, it’s not who he’s guarding, it’s the volume of opportunities that he’s gifting to opponents.