Floyd Landis - Tour de France

#31
This is not quite true. His testosterone level was actually well within limits. He failed a ratio test of testosterone to epitestosterone. The whole thing gets complicated as heck. You really need a Ph.D. in this stuff to understand all of it. The chances of a false positive test are very low, yet still possible. It is the number of false negatives out there that concerns me.
Of course "false negatives" are possible. The whole testing is based on likelihood. Similar to statistical hypothesis testing.

What exactly do you propose? Doping tests have a certain margin for error, and they will always have. There's nothing you can do about that. It's either that small probability of having a false probability, or having no test at all (or was that what you were pointing at?).

Now, I don't have a degree in any medical field (rather statistics), but from what I understood, they measure the testosterone levels throughout the season, so they can set the confidence intervals for these levels. If there's no clear way to define "doping level" (I think you'll the opinions vary amongst experts), you use statistics to define it.

Do cyclists provide samples after every stage?
Every day the stage winner, overall leader and 3 random riders get tested, I believe.
 
#32
Of course "false negatives" are possible. The whole testing is based on likelihood. Similar to statistical hypothesis testing.

What exactly do you propose? Doping tests have a certain margin for error, and they will always have. There's nothing you can do about that. It's either that small probability of having a false probability, or having no test at all (or was that what you were pointing at?).

Now, I don't have a degree in any medical field (rather statistics), but from what I understood, they measure the testosterone levels throughout the season, so they can set the confidence intervals for these levels. If there's no clear way to define "doping level" (I think you'll the opinions vary amongst experts), you use statistics to define it.
I am probably very cynical, but it is my fear that eventually most records and most champions of various sporting events will just be a collection of false negatives. As with most tests, obtaining a false negative is more likely than a false positive.

I think the whole system is fatally flawed and I think the system has to be fundamentally changed. I am not sure how it should be changed. However, here is a link to a very interesting article on one way the system could be fundamentally changed and the idea comes from a top expert on the subject. I posted the link once before, but I will do it again because I think it is important for anyone who is interested in the topic of drugs in sports.


http://outside.away.com/outside/feat...-sports-1.html
 
#35
I read that last night. My thoughts

Whatever... for one its just Tour De France so really who cares? To me, the problem is it adds another layer of doubt. It ad's doubt for us fans when any athlete that actually does something great and does it legit.

When they all shrink up, die at age 50 I imagine thats when things will change.
 
#36
I read that last night. My thoughts

Whatever... for one its just Tour De France so really who cares? To me, the problem is it adds another layer of doubt. It ad's doubt for us fans when any athlete that actually does something great and does it legit.

When they all shrink up, die at age 50 I imagine thats when things will change.
Actually, the Tour is a big sporting event and has been for some time. It's the only big thing for the sport of cycling. If it turns out that Landis is guilty, it will be a major deal.
 
#37
I know Royal, :) should of put a sarcastic.

More IMO the words that come to mind is of course. I about don't believe anyone these days.

I just don't understand it, seriously something I cannot comprehend. For instance, I play a lot of online games and there are cheaters with programs like ants. In this instance WHY? If I cheated at anything I sure as hell wouldn't feel good about myself, even for 5million bucks.

Guess my parents raised me right but still I don't get it. Like its that one level above my thinking or something, it makes no sense and is destroying all sports.

All for one thing. Greed
 
#38
Agree with you, BW. But you, me, and a lot of others would feel that way because we have morals and a conscience. Cheaters don’t. All they can see is the bottom line, which in this case is the millions of dollars and publicity. It has nothing to do with personal pride and feeling a great sense of accomplishment. Certain sports just keep becoming bigger and more lucrative, and that just makes people feel more tempted to cheat. But their arrogance is what is amazing to me. With all the doping watchdogs and testing out there these days, not to mention how interested the media is in busting people, it’s foolish for any athlete to think that they could actually get away with it.
 
#39
Agree with you, BW. But you, me, and a lot of others would feel that way because we have morals and a conscience. Cheaters don’t. All they can see is the bottom line, which in this case is the millions of dollars and publicity. It has nothing to do with personal pride and feeling a great sense of accomplishment. Certain sports just keep becoming bigger and more lucrative, and that just makes people feel more tempted to cheat. But their arrogance is what is amazing to me. With all the doping watchdogs and testing out there these days, not to mention how interested the media is in busting people, it’s foolish for any athlete to think that they could actually get away with it.
What makes you think that professional athletes do not get away with all of the time? Perhaps the athlete that does not use is being foolish. It is probably time to stop the moral judgements and start looking at the reasons athletes use drugs.
 
#40
What makes you think that professional athletes do not get away with all of the time? Perhaps the athlete that does not use is being foolish. It is probably time to stop the moral judgements and start looking at the reasons athletes use drugs.
What? Its about what I said, 100% greed. I just don't understand it... Since you seem to have the pulse of the users what do you think? Why do you think they use it?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#42
The thread is about Floyd Landis. Let's keep it in that vein. Discussing the "moral judgments," or "looking at the reasons athletes use drugs" is just an invitation to disaster around here.

Thanks all...
 
#43
Oh, come-on VF21, this is an important discussion and probably will not get as heated as most of those arena threads. To answer your question RD, yes I think sympathy towards those that test positive is a great start. The entire sports world needs to start asking why these athletes use drugs. Part of that answer I believes rests with us - the fans, who practically demand world records, championships, superhuman peformances etc. Suffice it say that the entire system is "sick" and nobody should be shocked when you see some "sick" behaviors within that system.

I do not want to write too much because I am not sure that people on this board are all that interested in the topic. Personally, it is a topic of big interest to me because I love sport for sports sake. I hate to see sport become warped, however, I do not see a solution to what is going on and only see it getting much worse.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#44
It might be an important discussion, kupman, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily right for this board. If people can talk about it without getting heated, then fine. BUT at the first hint of any kind of personal animosity, I'm going to delete the posts in question. We've been down this road MANY times before.
 
#45
Okay, I promise to behave myself.

kupman-I see what you are saying, but ultimately in the end, the athlete is the one who makes the decision to cross that line, so the responsibility lies solely with them in the end. If they just give in to the pressure instead of fighting it, then the problem will forever remain. What about previous times in sports when athletes didn't dope, yet still became successful? Could it be that some of today's athletes simpy don't want to work as hard as they should to get results, hence they dope instead?

As far as what fans ultimately want out of sports, hmmm... I sense a poll coming on around here, it would be interesting to see the results. Don't know if I'll be the one to get around to it, though.
 
#46
It might be an important discussion, kupman, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily right for this board. If people can talk about it without getting heated, then fine. BUT at the first hint of any kind of personal animosity, I'm going to delete the posts in question. We've been down this road MANY times before.
I understand that your are the Mod. and I am not. However, keep in mind that this discussion is taking place under "Sports - general," and this topic may be biggest topic for sports in general. Also, this board is full of heated discussions. I do realize that most people come here as fans of the Kings and may not want to discuss deeper issues such as this and that is cool with me.
 
#48
Check out this link about a book, "The Tour", by Dave Shields.

http://www.daveshields.com/TheTourReviews.html

This book was released a few months before this year's Tour and has eerie parallels to what happened with Landis. I have the book in hand but have not yeat read it and plan to do so in the next week.

I DID read Shields' "The Race" which is an absolutely stellar fiction story about an American cyclist, Ben Barnes, and his first TDF experience. The setting is primarily the big-time Alpe-d' Huez stage of the Tour, and the book is jam-packed with superb imagery, behind the scenes what happens stuff, and a nice story to boot.

Shields is a very, very talented author (and an accomplished cyclist).

"The Tour" is the continuing fictional story of Barnes through the end of the Tour de France, and he is tempted to use performance-enhancing drugs.

If "The Tour" is a tenth as good as "The Race", it is worth obtaining.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#49
I understand that your are the Mod. and I am not. However, keep in mind that this discussion is taking place under "Sports - general," and this topic may be biggest topic for sports in general. Also, this board is full of heated discussions. I do realize that most people come here as fans of the Kings and may not want to discuss deeper issues such as this and that is cool with me.
I have to apologize for not seeing this until now, or I would have responded.

Yes, this is the Sports - General forum. And because of it, we get some pretty excited people talking about sports whose fans are traditionally a LOT more intense and passionate about the sport being discussed than some of us are used to seeing.

After seeing your initial reply to my comments, I did revise my position. I ended up issuing a bit of a pre-emptive warning. I've seen posters go completely berzerk talking about soccer, cycling, baseball, etc. Hot topics like Kobe's legal problems, Bonds' various issues, steroid use, etc. can easily get too emotional, with people forgetting about the issue and ending up attacking each other. That ALWAYS will get a thread closed.

So, I made a comment before that happened to hopefully serve as a reminder.

If people want to "dig deeper" about various topics, that's fine but they just need to remember to keep it cool, calm and collected.

:)
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#50
http://sport.independent.co.uk/general/article1215985.ece

Tour de France: The shaming of a cycling superhero
Test results mean Floyd Landis will be first Tour de France winner stripped of his title

By Severin Carrell
Published: 06 August 2006

The American cyclist Floyd Landis is to be stripped of his Tour de France title after a test yesterday confirmed he had excess levels of the hormone testosterone in his body when he won the race.

The 30-year-old cyclist won last month with a heroic performance in the last and most gruelling mountain stage of the race, but now faces the humiliation of being banned from the sport for two years.

Landis, who has protested his innocence ever since the first doping test found excessive levels of testosterone, was summarily sacked by his Swiss racing team, Phonak, yesterday after the "B" sample also proved positive.

He will be the first winner of the Tour de France to be stripped of the title.

The decision to strip him of the famous "yellow jersey" worn by champions will be made officially by the International Cycling Union, but yesterday the director of the Tour de France, Christian Prudhomme, said: "It goes without saying that, for us, Floyd Landis is no longer the winner of the 2006 Tour de France."

It is now expected that the Spaniard who was Landis's runner-up, Oscar Pereiro, will be declared the winner. The ruling will prove to be immensely embarrassing to the sport, which has been hit recently by a series of doping scandals involving some of the best-known teams.

Landis has insisted that the high hormone levels were "a natural occurrence", and he continued to protest his innocence. "I have never taken any banned substance, including testosterone. I was the strongest man at the Tour de France, and that is why I am the champion. I will fight these charges with the same determination and intensity that I bring to my training and racing. It is now my goal to clear my name and restore what I worked so hard to achieve."

His lawyer, Howard Jacobs, added: "In consultation with some of the leading medical and scientific experts, we will prove that Floyd Landis's victory in the 2006 Tour de France was not aided in any respect by the use of any banned substances."

The American, who returned to cycling after recovering from a broken hip in a crash three years ago, will be now referred to the United States Cycling Federation for a formal investigation for doping. That inquiry will allow Landis and his lawyers to challenge the assumption that the abnormal levels of testosterone were artificial rather than, as he insists, produced naturally by his body.

Speaking in Madrid last week, he said the testosterone was "absolutely natural and produced by my own organism".

Landis's victory - described by some as "awesome" - came after he had all but lost his leading position, effectively collapsing on day 16 of the race during a gruelling mountain stage where he was left unsupported by his team-mates. But the next day, he produced an extraordinary solo performance, outstripping the nearest rider to win the final day of the mountain stage by a remarkable six minutes.

He went on to join the small pantheon of American winners of the Tour after three-times winner Greg LeMond and seven-times champion Lance Armstrong. His 57-second winning margin in this year's tour was the sixth narrowest in Tour history.

Disgraced: Ruined by the hunger to win at all costs

JUNE 2006 One-time Tour de France winner Jan Ullrich and Oscar Sevilla dropped by T-Mobile, for links to a major blood doping inquiry which included 13 riders.

JUNE 2006 British sprinter Dwain Chambers loses his European gold medal, and has all his races since 2001 annulled, after admitting to using a performance drug.

JULY 2006 Justin Gatlin, US World and Olympic 100m sprinter, faces lifetime ban after tests showed high levels of testosterone.

JULY 2006 West Ham defender Shaun Newton was suspended for seven months after testing positive for cocaine.

AUGUST 2006 Gabor Dobos, Hungary's top sprinter, tests positive for high testosterone. Banned for life.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#51
The American, who returned to cycling after recovering from a broken hip in a crash three years ago, will be now referred to the United States Cycling Federation for a formal investigation for doping. That inquiry will allow Landis and his lawyers to challenge the assumption that the abnormal levels of testosterone were artificial rather than, as he insists, produced naturally by his body.
If he's guilty, I wish he would just say so. If he's innocent, I hope they're able to prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Either way, I doubt if I'll be watching cycling again...

:(
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#54
Did you read post #50, BW? He's already been fired from the team.

I'm not going to argue whether or not he lied or cheated because I don't anywhere near enough about this to do so with any kind of real grasp on the situation at hand. I've heard three different "experts" with three different opinions. As I said, if it's true I just wish he would confess. And if this isn't true, if it's more of an attempt to get at an American athlete as they tried so many times with Lance Armstrong, then shame on all of them.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#55
Thanks for the link to the Kreidler article, BTW. I'm glad to see something from him, even if it is at BSPN.

;)

Here's the text of the Kreidler article:

Excuses won't mask the truth about Landis
By Mark Kreidler
Special to ESPN.com


"I'm going to do my best to defend my dignity and my innocence."
-- Floyd Landis, on CNN.

Oh, sure, it looks like a set-up line now, but back when Landis uttered those words to Larry King, in the heady nostalgia of … well, of last week, Floyd and his "team" had yet to offer up the first in his growing line of explanations for testing red-hot on the Cheat-to-Win scale.

By the time the cyclist's sizzling "B" sample finally came back from the French lab on Saturday, the Landis dog-ate-my-exonerating-evidence excuse list had grown to at least four, each more fantastic than the last.

If it wasn't cortisone shots or thyroid medication, maybe it was beer and whiskey. If it wasn't Landis' natural ability to produce testosterone at, apparently, Clooney-esque levels, maybe it was a combination of dehydration and "maximum effort," as one of Landis' Spanish lawyers suggested hopefully Friday.

I'm no lab coat, but Landis' testosterone-to-epitestosterone level, which has an allowable ratio of up to 4:1 under WADA rules, reportedly came up at 11:1 in his July 20 test. Isn't that sort of like blowing a .22 on ye olde breathalyzer in a state with a .08 legal alcohol limit? That's some serious maximum effort.

Still, a grudging acknowledgement here. A grudging respect for a guy who absolutely won't give it up, a guy willing to grasp at any explanation available -- anything that gives Landis even one more day's reprieve from the full weight of a decided public opinion -- no matter how ludicrous it sounds or how laughably flimsy it proves to be.

I can't help it: There's a part of me that admires the audacity of it all.

Americans still go so big, don't they? They just do. Landis is part of this classic international sport and certainly a multinational cycling team, and yet in his time of crisis he reverts to pure Americana: He's barreling out of the chute with everything he's got.

He is seizing on everything, every little scrap of a possibility. It's just a wild fight for his name. And, significantly, Landis and his people are willing to assume that the U.S. citizenry is absolutely the most willfully ignorant group of sports fans on the face of the earth -- that maybe we'll buy the beer-and-whiskey explanation because, hell, why not? It isn't as though we haven't swallowed some whoppers before.

That much, of itself, is resolutely American. From Barry Bonds' flaxseed oil to Justin Gatlin's evil masseuse, we've had just about every possible explanation for cheating thrown our way. Don't think Landis' advisers aren't aware of how often it seems to work, even if only well enough to buy a little time.

I'm old school, in the sense that I've been writing about sports for more than 18 months and I actually report from time to time. My favorite drug-excuse memory dates to the Sydney Olympics in 2000, when shot-putter C.J. Hunter sat before a roomful of reporters alongside his then-wife, Marion Jones, and fought back tears as he said he couldn't explain how he had tested positive for steroids -- four times -- that summer.

His "nutritionist," though, had a very good idea. This heretofore unknown man, on hand for the news conference, explained that Hunter's iron supplements must have been spiked, which is how Hunter came to have in his system levels of the steroid nandrolone that were 1,000 times the allowable limit.

That nutritionist? Why, it was our good friend Victor Conte, who would go on to star in his own sports production, "BALCO, Barry and Me: The Destruction of a Superstar." In the end, the Hunter deal was a total fraud, a dog and pony show. But I'll tell you what: C.J. Hunter's tears that day looked real all the same.

They also planted at least a few seeds of doubt -- you know, sort of like just needing one juror to vote for acquittal -- and there was a lesson there, too. All these years later, Floyd Landis and his crew are chipping away at that same lesson.

Go for the tiny shards of doubt. In this case, seize upon the fact that the other Landis tests during the race -- Landis says there were eight of them -- all came back negative. You start down that road, and the doubt creeps in: Does it really make sense that Landis' readings suddenly would go flying off the chart in the middle of the Tour de France? Are we being held captive to the limits of what information Landis and WADA have made public? Is it simply a Landis smokescreen, or does he have a legitimate basis for challenging a single abnormal result?

No matter. To Landis and his folks, the important thing is that Americans, as a sports group, have become so immersed in the drug-excuse culture that nothing is going to strike them as too stupidly impossible to proffer as a semi-explanation of what, in the end, might have happened. And that's enough. That is where the possibility lies, the shadow of a doubt.

It lies in our willingness. We'll consider pretty much anything, evidently, which means anything is worth a shot. Maybe even a shot and a beer.

Mark Kreidler is a regular contributor to ESPN.com. You can reach him at mkreidler@sacbee.com.
 
Last edited:
#57
Landis, a 30-year-old former mountain biker, says he was tested eight other times during the three-week tour and those results came back negative.

This is the most interesting part of the story, and I am not as quick to dismiss it as Kreidler was.

These cyclists KNEW they would be tested frequently throughout the Tour. A doping scandal had already hit the event with two of the favorites out of the race before it ever started. A very heightened awareness of monitoring for performance-enhancing drugs from the get-go.

Landis tests negative EIGHT times throughout the TDF and then all of a sudden there is a hit?

Possibilities:

1) Landis was desparate after losing the yellow jersey late in the Tour and took an enhancer, hoping that, since it was late in the game, he would not be tested any more. Perhaps he felt so bad after that devastating stage, he knew he had to do something to have a shot at the yellow jersey in Paris. Naturally, he won the next stage the very next day (when he was tested) and that led to his Tour win.

2) Unbeknownst to Landis, someone tainted something he ate or drank before that final test to take him down in the subsequent drug testing.

3) Someone involved in the chain-of-custody or analysis of Landis' pee tainted the sample so that it would fail. COC tampering is unlikely since the jar was probably sealed and initialed on the seal by Landis at the time of sample creation. Tampering would require breaking the seal. So if this was someone's devious plot, then it probably happened at the analyst's bench.

4) One of Landis' several legal drug treatments was tainted.

I think those are the possibilities. Since synthetic testosterone was found in the 2nd sample, that seems to eliminate "natural causes" from the out-of-whack results.

So which is it?

Number 1) seems most likely, unfortunately.
 
Last edited:

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#58
One of the experts I heard said there was NO way testosterone could have been administered and absorbed into the system in such a short period of time. The problem with this whole thing is there are "experts" who will say just about anything and, unless you actually know and trust a physiological chemist (or whatever they would be called) you don't know who to believe...
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#60
That's one bandwagon I really don't want to jump on, 1kf. Maybe I'm just a little too tired of so many scandals, so many allegations (proven and otherwise) about cheating, doping, etc. Maybe I'd like to see - just once - someone rise above the charges and PROVE them false.

Hope springs eternal... I am a Kings fan, after all. I think wanting to believe in the impossible is part of my DNA.

:)