[Rumor] Fisher: Kings “expected to gauge trade market” for DeMar DeRozan

[Warhawk]

Oh sorry. I think I misinterpreted your reply. And yes that’s worded rather poorly. Apologies again.

Sactownkid tossed out a hypothetical of the Kings deciding to pivot and begin a rebuild at next season’s trade deadline. I think this is pretty unrealistic considering Vivek’s mandate to win now, and I would think the only thing that could really trigger it would be Sabonis asking out. However, at that point, I wouldn’t be surprised if Vivek still mandated a win now goal causing us to trade Sabonis for Julius Randle or something else stupid, but I digress…

In that hypothetical, I said that I would trade Sabonis for a rebuilding package (expirings, prospects, & picks) which would obviously lead to us being much worse on the floor and thus improve the odds that’s we would be drafting in higher draft slots.

You responded saying “this is not the way” which was confusing to me since the rest of your post seemed to align with how I view rebuilding (for the most part).

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification, and sorry if my initial response was confusing.

My response was only with regards to tanking for a top draft pick. I'm not adverse to a rebuild, but am against a tank. There's a difference in my mind between 1) getting some good young players that could help (even in the short term) in a rebuild and 2) tanking to hope to get a #1 pick and plan on that pick being your generational stud. I was just saying that "tanking for the stud" approach just isn't a viable plan. It is hoping and wishing on lottery balls (with the odds against you) and then hoping that there is a truly generational player available when you do pick. That's not planning, that's abandoning a plan and praying for luck.

Make your own luck and trade/sign young talent that you know can play. Do well with your picks (obviously), but you can't count on that lottery combination popping up as your "plan" for the future.

 

[SacTownKid]

I guess you and I value Sabonis' impact on the floor much differently then. Which is fine, but likely the reason for the difference in opinion.



But again, Monk would not be on the roster and thus his contract shouldn't be included in this statement.

Yes, Sabonis and LaVine make a lot of money. If the Kings decide to pivot to a rebuild at the deadline next season in your hypothetical (which IMO is not likely to happen), you only have LaVine under contract for 1.5 years, and there should be takers/suitors that are interested in acquiring Sabonis. In the case of Holiday, there are multiple teams interested in trading for him this offseason. I have a hard time seeing his market go absolutely ice cold a half a season later.

Like I said in my original reply to you, it's not as a big of a concern as you make it out to be (IMO of course).



I'm fine taking a prospect + picks package for Sabonis (vs. just a picks package), but that's really not the crux of our disagreement, but you know what is also important to have when you have young players that you're developing? Mentors. Holiday would be excellent in that role and engrain how important it is to take both ends of the floor seriously.

I've already gone through the math in my previous post so I will just reiterate that we could have ~$38 mil in cap space the following offseason if we trade Sabonis for expirings, prospects, and/or picks. That's a ton of space to do what you want to do.

Also, it's not "swallowing $100 mil" necessarily. If the Kings do in fact decide to rebuild halfway into next season, I doubt Holiday will even be here by the end of his contract. Like I mentioned before, he has multiple suitors interested in trading for him this offseason. I don't see that interest all of a sudden disappearing halfway into the season.



I mean I just laid out how the roster and cap are flexible enough to pivot from a Sabonis, LaVine, & Holiday core…in both directions (upgrading or rebuilding). I’m not reading any points from you that disagree with that flexibility being maintained after making this trade other than “swallowing 100 mil” but when we actually get down into the details, it’s clear to me where the flexibility is at.

I'm not talking about your trade proposal or just waiting until 2027, preferably the Kings are easing their cap back before that, this is where Keon/Keegan/other signings potentially get in the way, I'm talking about the idea of just adding Jrue for someone like DeMar which is the basis of a lot of these rumors and in general as the "answer" at PG. I get the mentoring thing and again, no argument there, but mentors aren't guys making 100 million, that better be some serious Tony Robbins **** if so, haha. And yes you can pivot, but your idea also might be underrating the ease of accomplishing that goal and by quite a bit. We don't know what the NBA landscape will be then, what we do know is adding 100 million is still adding 100 million, Jrue is towards the end of his career, Jrue isn't valued at the contract he's on currently, and so on.

 

[SacTownKid]

Oh sorry. I think I misinterpreted your reply. And yes that’s worded rather poorly. Apologies again.

Sactownkid tossed out a hypothetical of the Kings deciding to pivot and begin a rebuild at next season’s trade deadline. I think this is pretty unrealistic considering Vivek’s mandate to win now, and I would think the only thing that could really trigger it would be Sabonis asking out. However, at that point, I wouldn’t be surprised if Vivek still mandated a win now goal causing us to trade Sabonis for Julius Randle or something else stupid, but I digress…

In that hypothetical, I said that I would trade Sabonis for a rebuilding package (expirings, prospects, & picks) which would obviously lead to us being much worse on the floor and thus improve the odds that’s we would be drafting in higher draft slots.

You responded saying “this is not the way” which was confusing to me since the rest of your post seemed to align with how I view rebuilding (for the most part).

Again you assume a pivot is a complete 180 turnaround out of the blue. Look how long it took for the Kings to augment their current incarnation and what happened. Monte's "pivot" from Fox was actually what appeared to be a pretty smart play to both potentially stay competitive while also getting some rebuild/trade assets in the form of draft capital. Now, he also spent some of that draft capital to fill in the gaps right then but still. It's not going to go poof in one deadline, it could happen in theory but almost never happens because there are too many working parts and situational aspects that go into it. If the Kings are clearly out of any windows by next deadline, Domas, whoever, some of those decisions to pivot will eventually be made for Vivek whether he likes it or not with things like you said, players wanting out.

My take is wait and see what the first part of the season looks like and let success be their guide. If not, sorry, it's guessing on their part and more throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks which will likely just be stuck right back to them per usual. Sure if you want to have a fire sale and get 50 cents on the dollar a team probably could do most of the legwork in short order. You're probably looking at a year or 2 of transition while development, drafting, and all those other things are occurring simultaneously regardless. That's typically how it works. The fact is, the Kings would be better off having that 37 million off the books by 2027 in a worst case unless you think the mentoring is that valuable. Relating that against a 34 year old Jrue Holiday taking Vivek to the promised land? Yeah, the smart choice looks to be pretty easy IMO. When you are where the Kings are at, ANY flexibility is possibly the difference between mobility and immobility. The Kings can't continue to dump youth and picks to create minimal flexibility when they need it. They did that, time to be done unless this basic construction proves it worth it to go the other way. He hasn't yet, and didn't as the season wound down. If it did anything it was the opposite.

 

[twslam07]

I'm not talking about your trade proposal or just waiting until 2027, preferably the Kings are easing their cap back before that, this is where Keon/Keegan/other signings potentially get in the way, I'm talking about the idea of just adding Jrue for someone like DeMar which is the basis of a lot of these rumors and in general as the "answer" at PG. I get the mentoring thing and again, no argument there, but mentors aren't guys making 100 million, that better be some serious Tony Robbins **** if so, haha. And yes you can pivot, but your idea also might be underrating the ease of accomplishing that goal and by quite a bit. We don't know what the NBA landscape will be then, what we do know is adding 100 million is still adding 100 million, Jrue is towards the end of his career, Jrue isn't valued at the contract he's on currently, and so on.

And you very well could be overrating the difficulty of moving Holiday.

Considering how many teams are rumored to be interested in Holiday this offseason, I think the odds are in my favor here. It’d be one thing if I was recommending we trade for him and the rumor mill was ice cold but obviously that’s not the reality here. Again, I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill in terms of Holiday’s contract. And let’s be clear, we’re entertaining an unlikely scenario to even have this conversation. This scenario needs to be factored into the larger equation of outcomes at the end of the day when making a decision on Holiday.

 

[twslam07]

Again you assume a pivot is a complete 180 turnaround out of the blue.

What makes you say that?

Look how long it took for the Kings to augment their current incarnation and what happened. Monte's "pivot" from Fox was actually what appeared to be a pretty smart play to both potentially stay competitive while also getting some rebuild/trade assets in the form of draft capital. Now, he also spent some of that draft capital to fill in the gaps right then but still.

See I would have much preferred that he leaned into a rebuild/reset immediately vs. taking on a 30 year old LaVine instead. I think it’s fair to say that any/most smart GMs would have recognized that is the direction to take when your 27 year old franchise player asks to be traded. You don’t then go & trade for a lesser, older talent and tread water for a few years. But guess what? I can’t really say this is Monte’s fault because the return on the Fox trade has Vivek written all over it unfortunately.

It's not going to go poof in one deadline, it could happen in theory but almost never happens because there are too many working parts and situational aspects that go into it. If the Kings are clearly out of any windows by next deadline, Domas, whoever, some of those decisions to pivot will eventually be made for Vivek whether he likes it or not with things like you said, players wanting out.

Okay rebuilds take a bit of time to execute? How’s this relevant?

My take is wait and see what the first part of the season looks like and let success be their guide. If not, sorry, it's guessing on their part and more throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks which will likely just be stuck right back to them per usual. Sure if you want to have a fire sale and get 50 cents on the dollar a team probably could do most of the legwork in short order. You're probably looking at a year or 2 of transition while development, drafting, and all those other things are occurring simultaneously regardless. That's typically how it works.

Okay, we’re in agreement to not get 50 cents on the dollar. I’d be taking the same approach in my idea. What’s the issue?

The fact is, the Kings would be better off having that 37 million off the books by 2027 in a worst case unless you think the mentoring is that valuable. Relating that against a 34 year old Jrue Holiday taking Vivek to the promised land? Yeah, the smart choice looks to be pretty easy IMO. When you are where the Kings are at, ANY flexibility is possibly the difference between mobility and immobility. The Kings can't continue to dump youth and picks to create minimal flexibility when they need it. They did that, time to be done unless this basic construction proves it worth it to go the other way. He hasn't yet, and didn't as the season wound down. If it did anything it was the opposite.

But we’re not dumping youth and picks. Holiday is not costing us youth and picks to acquire and we’d still have substantial cap space with Holidsy on the roster (and that’s assuming Holidsy would still be on this roster which doesn’t seem super likely to me).

See…you see Holiday as an anchor. Someone who restricts our flexibility, but when you get into the math, that doesn’t seem to be the case. And even if it was a mathematical issue, you’re failing to acknowledge the interest Holiday would generate around the league (the guy already has multiple teams interested in him this offseason).

You’re smart enough to recognize that just because we trade for someone, it doesn’t mean we have to keep them until the end of their contract. Considering the interest Holiday has on the trade market and considering his impact on winning, I think he’ll be much easier to move than you’re making it out to be.

 

[SacTownKid]

And you very well could be overrating the difficulty of moving Holiday.

Considering how many teams are rumored to be interested in Holiday this offseason, I think the odds are in my favor here. It’d be one thing if I was recommending we trade for him and the rumor mill was ice cold but obviously that’s not the reality here. Again, I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill in terms of Holiday’s contract. And let’s be clear, we’re entertaining an unlikely scenario to even have this conversation. This scenario needs to be factored into the larger equation of outcomes at the end of the day when making a decision on Holiday.

Moving him for what though? Every player is movable to some extent the question is always the what and what are going to have to swallow in the process. Pure cap space like would be desired? Yeah, we'll see. What teams are interested? the Clippers? Where were they compared to the Kings at the end of the day? If the Kings were swapped in the standings heck yeah, go for it, but they weren't. This type of move doesn't even guarantee they get anywhere close to that range in the West.

 

[SacTownKid]

What makes you say that?



See I would have much preferred that he leaned into a rebuild/reset immediately vs. taking on a 30 year old LaVine instead. I think it’s fair to say that any/most smart GMs would have recognized that is the direction to take when your 27 year old franchise player asks to be traded. You don’t then go & trade for a lesser, older talent and tread water for a few years. But guess what? I can’t really say this is Monte’s fault because the return on the Fox trade has Vivek written all over it unfortunately.



Okay rebuilds take a bit of time to execute? How’s this relevant?



Okay, we’re in agreement to not get 50 cents on the dollar. I’d be taking the same approach in my idea. What’s the issue?


But we’re not dumping youth and picks. Holiday is not costing us youth and picks to acquire and we’d still have substantial cap space with Holidsy on the roster (and that’s assuming Holidsy would still be on this roster which doesn’t seem super likely to me).

See…you see Holiday as an anchor. Someone who restricts our flexibility, but when you get into the math, that doesn’t seem to be the case. And even if it was a mathematical issue, you’re failing to acknowledge the interest Holiday would generate around the league (the guy already has multiple teams interested in him this offseason).

You’re smart enough to recognize that just because we trade for someone, it doesn’t mean we have to keep them until the end of their contract. Considering the interest Holiday has on the trade market and considering his impact on winning, I think he’ll be much easier to move than you’re making it out to be.

Because you are saying that Vivek has this mandate and thus it's unlikely they'll rebuild by the deadline where IMO the only way I can make sense of what they did last deadline was to give them the tools to do just that in a worst case. As I said previously, if that wasn't the intent then this is going to go off the rails anyway and considering history bets should be placed on it blowing up in their face yet again. They were riding the middle with the LaVine deal, not going to a win now mandate full force. They added low risk/cost players to fill it out also with JV/LaRavia. These weren't just moves based on pure chaos and future destruction. If that was all Monte's doing then yes, this could be headed for bad times soon enough, lol. Because he was likely the voice of reason then. The truth is if the Kings want to go full win now? They need to dump anything of value, Keegan, picks, whatever it takes to get difference makers. Of course that would potentially be even more crushing but I guess we'll see where this goes.

And it's relevant because you're assuming having even a few older players or older young players a) won't have an impact on future draft picks or b) will be contracts that won't have to be waited out. Yeah, they could potentially trade those contracts as enders but teams usually get some longer contracts back in that scenario. When was the last time an ender that size got anything of real value back either? Rebuilding teams are usually better off timing space for themselves. And as I said, it's about MAXIMIZING flexibility and I can't make it more clear than to say what I already did about his contract and what it does or doesn't do in those terms. If you want to argue that 100 million committed on a rebuilding team does nothing to that, then yeah, we have a parting of the ways on that math. 37 million is a big hit if you can potentially have that in the form of pure space during a rebuild.

To sum this all up, no, sorry I do not think it's a wise move to commit any more money to players nearing the last few seasons of their career at this point with where the Kings are at. And that's also totally besides the point that DeRozan for Holiday IMO is the Kings leaching value for need. DeMar is still basically Demar on a better contract. If the Kings came in next season and did look to be gelling and were competitive then that could very easily change. We'll see if the Celtics can get off of Holidays contract in one fell swoop and what that type of deal looks like. The rumored teams being the Mavs and Clippers make a lot more sense for Holiday than the Kings. It's arguable that both of those teams have talent in duplicate the Kings don't even currently have one of. Say the Pistons were interested well look how much farther along they are than the Kings right now. The Kings might end up being just as good, still, we don't have enough intel to know that and the initial returns were all over the place and leaning more towards no.

 

[twslam07]

Moving him for what though? Every player is movable to some extent the question is always the what and what are going to have to swallow in the process. Pure cap space like would be desired? Yeah, we'll see. What teams are interested? the Clippers? Where were they compared to the Kings at the end of the day? If the Kings were swapped in the standings heck yeah, go for it, but they weren't. This type of move doesn't even guarantee they get anywhere close to that range in the West.

Move him for expirings at the very least. His combination of impact on the floor and an ever shortening contract should make it easier to deal him.

I’ve seen DAL, LAC, MIA, and SAC have interest in Holiday.

I think you’re confusing acquiring Holiday as some sort of “finishing move.” It’s not. It’s one step in the process while we continue to to build something greater over time.

 

[twslam07]

Because you are saying that Vivek has this mandate and thus it's unlikely they'll rebuild by the deadline where IMO the only way I can make sense of what they did last deadline was to give them the tools to do just that in a worst case. As I said previously, if that wasn't the intent then this is going to go off the rails anyway and considering history bets should be placed on it blowing up in their face yet again. They were riding the middle with the LaVine deal, not going to a win now mandate full force. They added low risk/cost players to fill it out also with JV/LaRavia. These weren't just moves based on pure chaos and future destruction. If that was all Monte's doing then yes, this could be headed for bad times soon enough, lol. Because he was likely the voice of reason then.

That’s the only way you can make sense of that situation? You think moving Fox for LaVine is “riding the middle?” What’s not “riding the middle” then? Trading Fox for a better star talent? Usually when you’re being forced to trade your star, you’re not the one getting the best player back in the trade, but it didn’t stop us from taking back a lesser & older star in hopes of clinging on to winning now.

Now it would be one thing if we didn’t hear any mandate on a direction for this upcoming season which could lend credence to your conclusion (riding the middle) but we did hear it. The mandate is to be competitive and win now. This signals to me the Fox trade was not a “riding the middle” move. It was a desperate move to remain competitive in the west and I’ll tell you why…

If the goal was really to “ride the middle,” see how the team performs after the trade, and then make a decision on whether to move forward with a “win now” plan or a “rebuild” plan, well…the team went 15-19 after bringing LaVine here. That’s on pace for a 36 win team. What about how that team looked & performed would make a FO that is taking a “riding the middle” approach say “yeah I think we should continue to try and win next year?”

You know what makes way more sense if a FO was truly “riding the middle” and had the power to either move in a win now or rebuilding direction? They would be choosing to rebuild right now based on the evidence from the end of last season (36 win pace team). But considering they are not taking that direction this season (which has been vocalized by the FO already), it seems to be the case that there has been a hard “win now” mandate from the beginning (which goes back to when Fox was traded).

Looking at the evidence, I don’t think they are “riding the middle.”

The truth is if the Kings want to go full win now? They need to dump anything of value, Keegan, picks, whatever it takes to get difference makers. Of course that would potentially be even more crushing but I guess we'll see where this goes.

I didn’t say go “full” win now. There’s a way to be competitive now (and continuing to build & get better) without selling off every young player and pick. That’s what my trade proposal does (bringing Holiday & Washington here). It improves the roster for next year (satisfying Vivek) while also keeping one hand on the future (maintaining all of our young players & picks).

And it's relevant because you're assuming having even a few older players or older young players a) won't have an impact on future draft picks or b) will be contracts that won't have to be waited out. Yeah, they could potentially trade those contracts as enders but teams usually get some longer contracts back in that scenario. When was the last time an ender that size got anything of real value back either? Rebuilding teams are usually better off timing space for themselves. And as I said, it's about MAXIMIZING flexibility and I can't make it more clear than to say what I already did about his contract and what it does or doesn't do in those terms. If you want to argue that 100 million committed on a rebuilding team does nothing to that, then yeah, we have a parting of the ways on that math. 37 million is a big hit if you can potentially have that in the form of pure space during a rebuild.

So it seems you are in favor of a full on tank then, but your response to @Warhawk seems to contradict that.

You’re worried that someone like Holiday is going to make us draft lower if we even decide to rebuild (and again that’s a big “if” that I’m only entertaining in this unlikely hypothetical you’ve laid out) but I think that difference is marginal at best (especially with the lottery odds being what they are). It’s more important to draft well in your slots and develop that talent. Having a roster full of young guys is not ideal for fostering development. You need some vets to help bring them along. Holiday would be terrific in that role to help maximize the young talent.

You’re going to have to pay someone on the roster. There is a minimum salary floor and filling it with nothing but rookie scale contracts isn’t going to get it done. Would you rather be paying someone who can help mentor the young talent and further along their growth & development while also being someone who might be able to flipped to a contender for an asset down the road or would you rather be paying end of bench players big money that can’t play the same mentor role? I know what I’d prefer.

To sum this all up, no, sorry I do not think it's a wise move to commit any more money to players nearing the last few seasons of their career at this point with where the Kings are at. And that's also totally besides the point that DeRozan for Holiday IMO is the Kings leaching value for need. DeMar is still basically Demar on a better contract. If the Kings came in next season and did look to be gelling and were competitive then that could very easily change. We'll see if the Celtics can get off of Holidays contract in one fell swoop and what that type of deal looks like. The rumored teams being the Mavs and Clippers make a lot more sense for Holiday than the Kings. It's arguable that both of those teams have talent in duplicate the Kings don't even currently have one of. Say the Pistons were interested well look how much farther along they are than the Kings right now. The Kings might end up being just as good, still, we don't have enough intel to know that and the initial returns were all over the place and leaning more towards no.

Again, no young assets/picks are being surrendered for Holiday so the “risk” is marginal at best especially since there are plenty of ways to generate cap space IF Vivek even allows a rebuild to take place (again, that’s a massive “if”).

I’ve also explained why it shouldn’t be too difficult to move Holiday down the road if it becomes necessary.

So again, what does the trade I proposed do…

1.) It improves our team next year (what Vivek wants). Holiday can fill the PG gap we currently have on the team and is a terrific fit next to LaVine and this roster in general. Washington also fills a big need for us as a long, athletic PF who can defend and space the floor
2.) Holiday has championship experience and can help establish a tough, hard working, defensive culture (what Perry/Christie want)
3.) Holiday can help mentor Ellis and Carter both offensively and defensively and can incrementally hand over the reigns over the coming years
4,) It allows us to keep all of our youth and future 1sts and even adds another 1st to our asset pool (which still gives us the flexibility to rebuild if Vivek can ever be convinced to move in that direction)
5.) It gives us a couple of opportunities to go star hunting during the 2026 off-season (using LaVine’s expiring contract) and 2027 off-season (using Holiday’s expiring contract) if the team is progressing and getting better

The fixation on Holiday’s contract being some roadblock/delay to being able to rebuild does not hold weight with me especially with all of that pros I listed above staring us in the face.

 

[SacTownKid]

Move him for expirings at the very least. His combination of impact on the floor and an ever shortening contract should make it easier to deal him.

I’ve seen DAL, LAC, MIA, and SAC have interest in Holiday.

I think you’re confusing acquiring Holiday as some sort of “finishing move.” It’s not. It’s one step in the process while we continue to to build something greater over time.

The over time is the issue and why this idea of simply moving back that earlier flexibility as Holiday would do (regardless of all the other positives or negatives on the floor, no question he fits on paper) could be a stumbling block no matter if it's not the sole stumbling block. The Kings are almost at a fork in the road again. They are staring down two paths. They can invest more money, time, etc. on this roster now but once they do they are walking down that path and if it becomes necessary to go down the other they'll still have to walk a ways back just to start over again.

 

[SacTownKid]

That’s the only way you can make sense of that situation? You think moving Fox for LaVine is “riding the middle?” What’s not “riding the middle” then? Trading Fox for a better star talent? Usually when you’re being forced to trade your star, you’re not the one getting the best player back in the trade, but it didn’t stop us from taking back a lesser & older star in hopes of clinging on to winning now.

Now it would be one thing if we didn’t hear any mandate on a direction for this upcoming season which could lend credence to your conclusion (riding the middle) but we did hear it. The mandate is to be competitive and win now. This signals to me the Fox trade was not a “riding the middle” move. It was a desperate move to remain competitive in the west and I’ll tell you why…

If the goal was really to “ride the middle,” see how the team performs after the trade, and then make a decision on whether to move forward with a “win now” plan or a “rebuild” plan, well…the team went 15-19 after bringing LaVine here. That’s on pace for a 36 win team. What about how that team looked & performed would make a FO that is taking a “riding the middle” approach say “yeah I think we should continue to try and win next year?”

You know what makes way more sense if a FO was truly “riding the middle” and had the power to either move in a win now or rebuilding direction? They would be choosing to rebuild right now based on the evidence from the end of last season (36 win pace team). But considering they are not taking that direction this season (which has been vocalized by the FO already), it seems to be the case that there has been a hard “win now” mandate from the beginning (which goes back to when Fox was traded).

Looking at the evidence, I don’t think they are “riding the middle.”



I didn’t say go “full” win now. There’s a way to be competitive now (and continuing to build & get better) without selling off every young player and pick. That’s what my trade proposal does (bringing Holiday & Washington here). It improves the roster for next year (satisfying Vivek) while also keeping one hand on the future (maintaining all of our young players & picks).



So it seems you are in favor of a full on tank then, but your response to @Warhawk seems to contradict that.

You’re worried that someone like Holiday is going to make us draft lower if we even decide to rebuild (and again that’s a big “if” that I’m only entertaining in this unlikely hypothetical you’ve laid out) but I think that difference is marginal at best (especially with the lottery odds being what they are). It’s more important to draft well in your slots and develop that talent. Having a roster full of young guys is not ideal for fostering development. You need some vets to help bring them along. Holiday would be terrific in that role to help maximize the young talent.

You’re going to have to pay someone on the roster. There is a minimum salary floor and filling it with nothing but rookie scale contracts isn’t going to get it done. Would you rather be paying someone who can help mentor the young talent and further along their growth & development while also being someone who might be able to flipped to a contender for an asset down the road or would you rather be paying end of bench players big money that can’t play the same mentor role? I know what I’d prefer.



Again, no young assets/picks are being surrendered for Holiday so the “risk” is marginal at best especially since there are plenty of ways to generate cap space IF Vivek even allows a rebuild to take place (again, that’s a massive “if”).

I’ve also explained why it shouldn’t be too difficult to move Holiday down the road if it becomes necessary.

So again, what does the trade I proposed do…

1.) It improves our team next year (what Vivek wants). Holiday can fill the PG gap we currently have on the team and is a terrific fit next to LaVine and this roster in general. Washington also fills a big need for us as a long, athletic PF who can defend and space the floor
2.) Holiday has championship experience and can help establish a tough, hard working, defensive culture (what Perry/Christie want)
3.) Holiday can help mentor Ellis and Carter both offensively and defensively and can incrementally hand over the reigns over the coming years
4,) It allows us to keep all of our youth and future 1sts and even adds another 1st to our asset pool (which still gives us the flexibility to rebuild if Vivek can ever be convinced to move in that direction)
5.) It gives us a couple of opportunities to go star hunting during the 2026 off-season (using LaVine’s expiring contract) and 2027 off-season (using Holiday’s expiring contract) if the team is progressing and getting better

The fixation on Holiday’s contract being some roadblock/delay to being able to rebuild does not hold weight with me especially with all of that pros I listed above staring us in the face.

Yes, I think it's indisputably potentially just that, a delay. How much of one? Who knows. You're operating off of two basic assumptions: the left over team would be easily dismantled with about 150 million or so per year in contracts possibly spread amongst a few players alone and they wouldn't be good enough to kind of end up in the middle of the lottery every year. That could be true, but it's not an easy bet either.

Where did I say I'm in favor of a full tank? If it's a choice between one or the other, a rebuild is the smart choice. I've been as clear as possible, Perry needs to run it back with maybe trying out a low cost/short term fit at PG, thus why this is a reverse of last offseason in terms of opinions. Now IS the time to wait unless they can get off of money in a deal. If they can get something useful and expirings/shorter length deals for DeRozan that would be the way to go IMO. Other than that let the first part of next season show you what LaVine and Domas look like as your big two. Moving forward as a competitive team that's basically all that matters. If they can't really perform as your top duo then moves around the periphery won't do much.

 

[twslam07]

The over time is the issue and why this idea of simply moving back that earlier flexibility as Holiday would do (regardless of all the other positives or negatives on the floor, no question he fits on paper) could be a stumbling block no matter if it's not the sole stumbling block. The Kings are almost at a fork in the road again. They are staring down two paths. They can invest more money, time, etc. on this roster now but once they do they are walking down that path and if it becomes necessary to go down the other they'll still have to walk a ways back just to start over again.

Couldn’t disagree more. Acquiring Holiday & Washington isn’t causing irreversible damage nor is it meaning we’re all in. It’s very much a low risk move that improves our team next year without sacrificing our future.

 

[SacTownKid]

Couldn’t disagree more. Acquiring Holiday & Washington isn’t causing irreversible damage nor is it meaning we’re all in. It’s very much a low risk move that improves our team next year without sacrificing our future.

I'm not talking about YOUR trade idea. I'm talking about Jrue in a realistic sense as a trade target. Once and for all, I LIKE YOUR TRADE IDEA, haha. The leftover team would be a much better bet to make the playoffs.

 

[twslam07]

Yes, I think it's indisputably potentially just that, a delay. How much of one? Who knows. You're operating off of two basic assumptions: the left over team would be easily dismantled with about 150 million or so per year in contracts possibly spread amongst a few players alone and they wouldn't be good enough to kind of end up in the middle of the lottery every year. That could be true, but it's not an easy bet either.

And I’m saying it won’t be a delay. If they want to rebuild, then they will rebuild regardless of Holiday being on the roster.

And yes, shedding Sabonis contract, an expiring LaVine, and Holiday with 2 years left on his contract does not seems all that difficult. Getting hung up on this unlikely outcome knowing there are many other pros to the deal is odd to me.

And you didn’t address this point so I’ll state it again. I disagree that the Kings took a “riding the middle” approach. The evidence doesn’t lead me to that conclusion yet that seems to be the foundation you’re building a lot of your POVs from.

Where did I say I'm in favor of a full tank? If it's a choice between one or the other, a rebuild is the smart choice.

You didn’t come right out and say you’re in favor of a full tank, but at the same time you are concerned with veterans or older young players helping us pick up an extra win or so. If you are concerned with that, it sounds like you prefer to just have a bunk of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year players on the roster as that would prevent the team from picking up those extra wins as much as possible. I’m not overly concerned with winning a few extra games while knowing we’re establishing a culture and environment that can help our young guys grow and develop.

I've been as clear as possible, Perry needs to run it back with maybe trying out a low cost/short term fit at PG, thus why this is a reverse of last offseason in terms of opinions. Now IS the time to wait unless they can get off of money in a deal. If they can get something useful and expirings/shorter length deals for DeRozan that would be the way to go IMO. Other than that let the first part of next season show you what LaVine and Domas look like as your big two. Moving forward as a competitive team that's basically all that matters. If they can't really perform as your top duo then moves around the periphery won't do much.

See and this brings me back to my previous point…we saw a healthy dose of what a LaVine/Sabonis team looks like. It was a 36 win pace team. The time to rebuild is right now not at the deadline or during the 2026 off-season. I don’t need to watch that combo more this season to make that decision and any FO worth its weight doesn’t either. Hell I could have told you before they played a game together that duo is not enough to lead a team to substantial success.

But despite that obvious fact, the FO did not decide to rebuild this offseason which tells me they were never “riding the middle” and waiting it out. Instead, the mandate has been clear…Vivek wants to win now.

And if that’s the directive from Vivek, a good way to try and build a competitive team after assessing our situation is to look for trades that upgrade our roster without sacrificing assets (which my proposal does) and setting yourself up to trade for a star by having some sizeable expiring contracts (LaVine next offseason and Holiday the following offseason) to make the money work.

The last thing I’ll say is that you seem to need another half season to determine if LaVine & Sabonis can perform as your top duo. Why do you need more time? What have you seen/not seen that makes you say “I need more time to make a decision?” It’s clear to me that LaVine & Sabonis as your top duo is not enough and it’s why in my trade proposal and future plan, I don’t have us continuing with LaVine & Sabonis as our top duo. In fact, I’ve mentioned many times that we should be positioning ourselves to try and use LaVine’s expiring contract next offseason as a way to try and upgrade him and bring in a higher caliber player. If you can’t make that type of trade happen…well Vivek has to cave at some point and let this team rebuild, right?

 

[twslam07]

I'm not talking about YOUR trade idea. I'm talking about Jrue in a realistic sense as a trade target. Once and for all, I LIKE YOUR TRADE IDEA, haha. The leftover team would be a much better bet to make the playoffs.

Then why are you arguing with me if you like my stance and idea?

And Holiday is part of my idea so how can you be so against acquiring Holiday but then like my idea that brings Holiday to SAC?

 

[SacTownKid]

And I’m saying it won’t be a delay. If they want to rebuild, then they will rebuild regardless of Holiday being on the roster.

And yes, shedding Sabonis contract, an expiring LaVine, and Holiday with 2 years left on his contract does not seems all that difficult. Getting hung up on this unlikely outcome knowing there are many other pros to the deal is odd to me.

And you didn’t address this point so I’ll state it again. I disagree that the Kings took a “riding the middle” approach. The evidence doesn’t lead me to that conclusion yet that seems to be the foundation you’re building a lot of your POVs from.



You didn’t come right out and say you’re in favor of a full tank, but at the same time you are concerned with veterans or older young players helping us pick up an extra win or so. If you are concerned with that, it sounds like you prefer to just have a bunk of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year players on the roster as that would prevent the team from picking up those extra wins as much as possible. I’m not overly concerned with winning a few extra games while knowing we’re establishing a culture and environment that can help our young guys grow and develop.



See and this brings me back to my previous point…we saw a healthy dose of what a LaVine/Sabonis team looks like. It was a 36 win pace team. The time to rebuild is right now not at the deadline or during the 2026 off-season. I don’t need to watch that combo more this season to make that decision and any FO worth its weight doesn’t either. Hell I could have told you before they played a game together that duo is not enough to lead a team to substantial success.

But despite that obvious fact, the FO did not decide to rebuild this offseason which tells me they were never “riding the middle” and waiting it out. Instead, the mandate has been clear…Vivek wants to win now.

And if that’s the directive from Vivek, a good way to try and build a competitive team after assessing our situation is to look for trades that upgrade our roster without sacrificing assets (which my proposal does) and setting yourself up to trade for a star by having some sizeable expiring contracts (LaVine next offseason and Holiday the following offseason) to make the money work.

The last thing I’ll say is that you seem to need another half season to determine if LaVine & Sabonis can perform as your top duo. Why do you need more time? What have you seen/not seen that makes you say “I need more time to make a decision?” It’s clear to me that LaVine & Sabonis as your top duo is not enough and it’s why in my trade proposal and future plan, I don’t have us continuing with LaVine & Sabonis as our top duo. In fact, I’ve mentioned many times that we should be positioning ourselves to try and use LaVine’s expiring contract next offseason as a way to try and upgrade him and bring in a higher caliber player. If you can’t make that type of trade happen…well Vivek has to cave at some point and let this team rebuild, right?

Cleary, because he would be on the roster most likely and no, that is flat out a delay in cap flexibility if the Kings could get out of DeMars contract sooner. Even if it took a year to get the kind of value you'd want from the trades, that's a whole year of being in between. And YES, if they have 100 million committed that is a concern, if it isn't for the Kings then we'll see if they know what they're doing here.

Holiday being brought in would be SPECIFICALLY done to help complete a team built around LaVine or Domas isn't it? One would be done entirely for the other if Perry went that route. As of now the top duo on this team that is supposedly trying to win now is that combo no matter what. Also why do they need more time? Because they didn't bring in LaVine as an ender, they brought him in being owed a nice chunk of money and this was a team at the end that didn't have a training camp nor did Christie even attempt to put in any offense. That was literally them flying by the seat of their pants and running on instinct. And you're talking about next offseason moving LaVine? Then you certainly don't invest in longer contracts to put pieces around him. What would the point be? Holidays window to help the team compete would be short one at best, just like DeMar.

 

[SacTownKid]

Then why are you arguing with me if you like my stance and idea?

And Holiday is part of my idea so how can you be so against acquiring Holiday but then like my idea that brings Holiday to SAC?

I'm not, lol. I'm talking about adding Holiday as a priority to solve the PG spot as a move on it's own. No other move like Washinton? No thanks. I'm arguing the fact that adding 100 million to a possible rebuilding teams cap can and will likely indeed be a delay. Even if at the most because then you have to wait for a team to bite and get that contract off your hands. It is another step to go through that can take awhile if the market options aren't there.

 

[twslam07]

Cleary, because he would be on the roster most likely and no, that is flat out a delay in cap flexibility if the Kings could get out of DeMars contract sooner. Even if it took a year to get the kind of value you'd want from the trades, that's a whole year of being in between. And YES, if they have 100 million committed that is a concern, if it isn't for the Kings then we'll see if they know what they're doing here.

Again, you’re failing to recognize the market Holiday has and would have. The guy is a winning player (according to advanced impact stats) and he has multiple teams interested in his services. You continue to act as if he will be some sort of anchor or deterrent IF we even decide to rebuild (which, again, is a massive “if” that isn’t likely to happen based on the evidence we have in front of us). As I mentioned before, you’re making a mountain out of a molehill considering the parameters Vivek has set.

Holiday being brought in would be SPECIFICALLY done to help complete a team built around LaVine or Domas isn't it? One would be done entirely for the other if Perry went that route.

That’s where you’re wrong (or misinterpreting). The fit next to LaVine is a pro, but it’s not the primary reason. Holiday is a versatile player who can play the PG role next to LaVine or play the SG role next to a star PG that we trade for down the road. At the end of the day, Holiday is a winning player who is one of those players that can fit next to anyone. If we upgrade LaVine and bring in a star PG or star SG, I guarantee Holiday will fit next to him. The other reason for bringing him here is to stagger our “swings” at a star in a trade. If there’s not a deal to be made with LaVine’s expiring salary, well we’re in luck! We have Holiday’s expiring salary to use the following offseason.

As of now the top duo on this team that is supposedly trying to win now is that combo no matter what. Also why do they need more time? Because they didn't bring in LaVine as an ender, they brought him in being owed a nice chunk of money and this was a team at the end that didn't have a training camp nor did Christie even attempt to put in any offense. That was literally them flying by the seat of their pants and running on instinct. And you're talking about next offseason moving LaVine? Then you certainly don't invest in longer contracts to put pieces around him. What would the point be? Holidays window to help the team compete would be short one at best, just like DeMar.

You’re doubling down on needing more time to assess if a team whose best players are LaVine & Sabonis is capable of being a serious playoff contender? Is that really the stance you want to take?

Like I mentioned before, it doesn’t take a genius to recognize the ceiling of that duo. I could have told you before they even stepped on the floor that’s it’s not enough, but take it from me. The Kings were on pace to be a 36 win team after the LaVine trade.

Now obviously you can improve around the edges (e.g., trading for Holiday & Washington) but the ceiling cap will remain with LavIne & Sabonis being your best players. The trade I proposed is not a “final move.” In fact, it’s a step towards building something greater.

We’re not going anywhere fast with LaVine & Sabonis as our top duo. The only hope we have (considering Vivek’s win now mandate) is to get lucky and draft a star in the middle of the 1st round or trade for a better star. My idea lays the groundwork for that to happen.

 

[twslam07]

I'm not, lol. I'm talking about adding Holiday as a priority to solve the PG spot as a move on it's own. No other move like Washinton? No thanks. I'm arguing the fact that adding 100 million to a possible rebuilding teams cap can and will likely indeed be a delay. Even if at the most because then you have to wait for a team to bite and get that contract off your hands. It is another step to go through that can take awhile if the market options aren't there.

A “possible rebuilding team”…that seems optimistic and downplays the likelihood of that actually happening based on the evidence we have in front of us. I think that should be written as “in the unlikely scenario that this team rebuilds.” Is that fair?

And I’ll ask the question again…if you’re so against adding Holiday, why do you like my trade that adds Holiday?

 

[SacTownKid]

Again, you’re failing to recognize the market Holiday has and would have. The guy is a winning player (according to advanced impact stats) and he has multiple teams interested in his services. You continue to act as if he will be some sort of anchor or deterrent IF we even decide to rebuild (which, again, is a massive “if” that isn’t likely to happen based on the evidence we have in front of us). As I mentioned before, you’re making a mountain out of a molehill considering the parameters Vivek has set.



That’s where you’re wrong (or misinterpreting). The fit next to LaVine is a pro, but it’s not the primary reason. Holiday is a versatile player who can play the PG role next to LaVine or play the SG role next to a star PG that we trade for down the road. At the end of the day, Holiday is a winning player who is one of those players that can fit next to anyone. If we upgrade LaVine and bring in a star PG or star SG, I guarantee Holiday will fit next to him. The other reason for bringing him here is to stagger our “swings” at a star in a trade. If there’s not a deal to be made with LaVine’s expiring salary, well we’re in luck! We have Holiday’s expiring salary to use the following offseason.



You’re doubling down on needing more time to assess if a team whose best players are LaVine & Sabonis is capable of being a serious playoff contender? Is that really the stance you want to take?

Like I mentioned before, it doesn’t take a genius to recognize the ceiling of that duo. I could have told you before they even stepped on the floor that’s it’s not enough, but take it from me. The Kings were on pace to be a 36 win team after the LaVine trade.

Now obviously you can improve around the edges (e.g., trading for Holiday & Washington) but the ceiling cap will remain with LavIne & Sabonis being your best players. The trade I proposed is not a “final move.” In fact, it’s a step towards building something greater.

We’re not going anywhere fast with LaVine & Sabonis as our top duo. The only hope we have (considering Vivek’s win now mandate) is to get lucky and draft a star in the middle of the 1st round or trade for a better star. My idea lays the groundwork for that to happen.

There is a reality that he could be an anchor, he's not guaranteed to be but he's not guaranteed to not be one either. The overall opinion is that Holiday is at the very least on an iffy contract and overpaid at this point. That's out there. And no matter how Holiday fits, this would be a move made entirely to help LaVine and Domas as your core, not bring in a mentor, and not anything else because if that were the case it would make even less sense.

And no, the stance I want to take is before the Kings yet again start putting finishing touch kinds of moves to create a team, they need at least a training camp and the ability for their coach to put in a system around it's two "star", no matter how you feel about them it is what it is. They might end up needing a scoring/high assist/slashing PG, who knows. If the contract coming back is less years they're that much better off in a worst case, that's inarguable. Right now it would seem unlikely but waiting until the deadline is the smart move considering the circumstances.

 

[SacTownKid]

A “possible rebuilding team”…that seems optimistic and downplays the likelihood of that actually happening based on the evidence we have in front of us. I think that should be written as “in the unlikely scenario that this team rebuilds.” Is that fair?

And I’ll ask the question again…if you’re so against adding Holiday, why do you like my trade that adds Holiday?

We don't know what Perry is going to do though. If he goes farther down the win now path then rebuilding could become increasingly difficult and then they could be stuck. We've seen it before. Specifically before the Maloof era hit the skids. My entire point is low hanging fruit fit trades isn't the way to success usually, and it if it's tied to OK players on big money it can sure make things harder. We've seen it, bought the shirt, yada yada. haha. Holiday might not even end up the type of move that destroys the future, it could be something worse. We have to wait and see. From what Perry has said we just have to have faith he's smart because clearly the smart move now is at the most build on what they've got with as many ways back out as possible.

You're trade idea is essentially both balanced the roster and got other long term money out at the same time. What team is better, Holiday/LaVine/Keegan/???/Domas or Holiday/LaVine/Keegan/Washington/Domas? The 3 questions marks in the first group? Kind of a big difference. Perry better not be looking at deals individually, he needs to be looking at them in totality and your trade does just that.

 

[twslam07]

There is a reality that he could be an anchor, he's not guaranteed to be but he's not guaranteed to not be one either. The overall opinion is that Holiday is at the very least on an iffy contract and overpaid at this point. That's out there. And no matter how Holiday fits, this would be a move made entirely to help LaVine and Domas as your core, not bring in a mentor, and not anything else because if that were the case it would make even less sense.

I'll be clear in my stance. This trade is not a "move made entirely to help LaVine and Domas as your core." Holiday's fit between LaVine and Sabonis is one consideration, but hardly the main justification for executing the trade.

As I mentioned before, a team who's best players are LaVine & Sabonis is not going to be a top shelf team. We saw it first hand last year (playing at a 36 win pace), but any FO worth their weight would have been able to predict that outcome without even seeing them on the floor. A training camp together is not going to magically make this duo good enough to carry a team to being a serious, consistent playoff threat.

So knowing a LaVine & Sabonis duo is not going to be enough to get it done, the idea is that one of the options is taking place...

• Trade Sabonis for a better star
• Trade LaVine for a better star (will be an expiring next offseason making him an attractive piece to move in a star trade)
• Resign/extend LaVine to a contract around $20 mil/year (this helps open up cap and allows us to try and bring a better star in while still having LaVine & Sabonis on the roster)

As you can see, Holiday's fit next to LaVine & Sabonis is not "THE" reason to make that trade considering I know we likely have to move off one of those players (unless LaVine wants to take a big pay cut in an extension). The team needs...

• A point guard
• To get better
• Flexibility/opportunities to trade for a better star

Holiday checks all of those boxes. And if we are able to trade for a better star and that star happens to be a PG....well Holiday's game allows him to also play SG (and he definitely can defend some SFs and PFs) so we wouldn't have to worry about a log jam either.

Again, Holiday's fit next to LaVine & Sabonis is a consideration, yes, but it's not the main justification for doing the trade I laid out.

And no, the stance I want to take is before the Kings yet again start putting finishing touch kinds of moves to create a team, they need at least a training camp and the ability for their coach to put in a system around it's two "star", no matter how you feel about them it is what it is. They might end up needing a scoring/high assist/slashing PG, who knows. If the contract coming back is less years they're that much better off in a worst case, that's inarguable. Right now it would seem unlikely but waiting until the deadline is the smart move considering the circumstances.

This is where we fundamentally disagree.

It appears that if you were the GM and had full authority to make whatever moves you want to make, you would choose to not begin a rebuild this offseason. If it were me, I would choose to begin a rebuild this offseason. I think it is clear as day that a LaVine & Sabonis duo is not a duo worth hanging your hat on if you want to be a serious playoff threat. However, you seem to not be convinced yet. You seem to think that a LaVine & Sabonis duo could be enough if we give them a training camp this offseason.

I don't need to see more of LaVine & Sabonis to know they aren't the answer as your top two guys, and I would venture to say that a large majority of folks (and FOs) would agree with me on that point. But if you do need to see more, that's fine. We're likely not going to find common ground on this point and is likely why we are disagreeing on some of these topics.

And since I think any FO worth their weight knows that duo is not enough and that the smart play as a GM would be to begin rebuilding this offseason, why has our GM come out and said that is not the goal/direction they are taking? I don't consider Perry to be a fool, so why is he choosing a fool's path....enter Vivek.

Considering we're not doing the logical thing today and beginning a rebuild, I think it's very hopeful to think that Vivek will allow a rebuild to take place at this deadline. The only thing I could see force Vivek's hand is if Sabonis comes out and asks for a trade, but until that point, I somewhat reject your premise that the FO is "riding in the middle" and are ready and willing to change course and begin a rebuild at the trade deadline. I think it's clear that Vivek is mandating a win now goal.

 

[twslam07]

We don't know what Perry is going to do though. If he goes farther down the win now path then rebuilding could become increasingly difficult and then they could be stuck. We've seen it before. Specifically before the Maloof era hit the skids. My entire point is low hanging fruit fit trades isn't the way to success usually, and it if it's tied to OK players on big money it can sure make things harder. We've seen it, bought the shirt, yada yada. haha. Holiday might not even end up the type of move that destroys the future, it could be something worse. We have to wait and see. From what Perry has said we just have to have faith he's smart because clearly the smart move now is at the most build on what they've got with as many ways back out as possible.

You're trade idea is essentially both balanced the roster and got other long term money out at the same time. What team is better, Holiday/LaVine/Keegan/???/Domas or Holiday/LaVine/Keegan/Washington/Domas? The 3 questions marks in the first group? Kind of a big difference. Perry better not be looking at deals individually, he needs to be looking at them in totality and your trade does just that.

See...you say that we don't know what Perry is going to do (which is technically true), but the evidence we have points strongly in one direction.

The logical move is to begin a rebuild this offseason (not at the trade deadline)...

• We have all of our future 1sts (so we don't have to worry about conveying valuable picks to other teams if we're in the lottery)
• Sabonis has not asked out (allowing us to trade him on our terms and get max return)
• Allows us to keep guys like Murray, Ellis, and Carter as their age would allow them to be part of a rebuild (vs. if we decide to rebuild 3-4 years from now)
• Monk and his contract should return a solid piece (that value won't be there when he turns into an expiring)
• SAS technically has the option to swap 1sts in 2031 so rebuilding now gives us a good shot at trying to be competitive again before the 2031 draft (avoiding a disastrous situation)

I don't take Perry for a fool, so why is he choosing a direction that contradicts that logic? And the answer is that it's because Vivek is a fool and is mandating this direction.

Perhaps I'll be surprised and Perry starts a rebuild this offseason or at the trade deadline, but I don't think that's likely at all.

 

[jiimbob]

Even at his advanced age I would gladly welcome Holiday. He was the heart of the Milwaukee team.
Of course we would be one old arse expensive team unless we can unload some of the obvious pieces for some youth.
Theres probably a more appropriate thread for this but my god was Monte incompetent. I had originally liked him but now question who made worse decisions, him or Vlade.

 

[SacTownKid]

I'll be clear in my stance. This trade is not a "move made entirely to help LaVine and Domas as your core." Holiday's fit between LaVine and Sabonis is one consideration, but hardly the main justification for executing the trade.

Then what would the main justification be? Short term moves of this financial cost could only be based around your two main cogs currently.

As I mentioned before, a team who's best players are LaVine & Sabonis is not going to be a top shelf team. We saw it first hand last year (playing at a 36 win pace), but any FO worth their weight would have been able to predict that outcome without even seeing them on the floor. A training camp together is not going to magically make this duo good enough to carry a team to being a serious, consistent playoff threat.

So knowing a LaVine & Sabonis duo is not going to be enough to get it done, the idea is that one of the options is taking place...

• Trade Sabonis for a better star
• Trade LaVine for a better star (will be an expiring next offseason making him an attractive piece to move in a star trade)
• Resign/extend LaVine to a contract around $20 mil/year (this helps open up cap and allows us to try and bring a better star in while still having LaVine & Sabonis on the roster)

As you can see, Holiday's fit next to LaVine & Sabonis is not "THE" reason to make that trade considering I know we likely have to move off one of those players (unless LaVine wants to take a big pay cut in an extension). The team needs...

• A point guard
• To get better
• Flexibility/opportunities to trade for a better star

Holiday checks all of those boxes. And if we are able to trade for a better star and that star happens to be a PG....well Holiday's game allows him to also play SG (and he definitely can defend some SFs and PFs) so we wouldn't have to worry about a log jam either.

Again, Holiday's fit next to LaVine & Sabonis is a consideration, yes, but it's not the main justification for doing the trade I laid out.



This is where we fundamentally disagree.

It appears that if you were the GM and had full authority to make whatever moves you want to make, you would choose to not begin a rebuild this offseason. If it were me, I would choose to begin a rebuild this offseason. I think it is clear as day that a LaVine & Sabonis duo is not a duo worth hanging your hat on if you want to be a serious playoff threat. However, you seem to not be convinced yet. You seem to think that a LaVine & Sabonis duo could be enough if we give them a training camp this offseason.

I don't need to see more of LaVine & Sabonis to know they aren't the answer as your top two guys, and I would venture to say that a large majority of folks (and FOs) would agree with me on that point. But if you do need to see more, that's fine. We're likely not going to find common ground on this point and is likely why we are disagreeing on some of these topics.

And since I think any FO worth their weight knows that duo is not enough and that the smart play as a GM would be to begin rebuilding this offseason, why has our GM come out and said that is not the goal/direction they are taking? I don't consider Perry to be a fool, so why is he choosing a fool's path....enter Vivek.

Considering we're not doing the logical thing today and beginning a rebuild, I think it's very hopeful to think that Vivek will allow a rebuild to take place at this deadline. The only thing I could see force Vivek's hand is if Sabonis comes out and asks for a trade, but until that point, I somewhat reject your premise that the FO is "riding in the middle" and are ready and willing to change course and begin a rebuild at the trade deadline. I think it's clear that Vivek is mandating a win now goal.

Again, I think you're lumping in a bunch of things that don't totally sound reasonable. Like this peripheral move then leads to complete and total change to the main core of the roster. If that's a consideration, then as you talked about they do need to start the rebuild now, not wait. They are just wasting moves and time at that point while adding salary on hopes it can be moved later. Sorry, I've seen it too many times that's how teams jumble themselves into being stuck. I think the last time a conversation about something similar to this involved the idea if dumping a first to get off of Holmes. I'm telling you, something like that can easily happen again because just because a team is rebuilding doesn't mean you don't want to be in the very best position to stike and not having 30+ million on a 35 year old player in an of itself is a major asset for a team in that position. Pay off vs. risk to me means don't even risk it at this point for the reasons you brought up about LaVine and Domas.

 

[SacTownKid]

See...you say that we don't know what Perry is going to do (which is technically true), but the evidence we have points strongly in one direction.

The logical move is to begin a rebuild this offseason (not at the trade deadline)...

• We have all of our future 1sts (so we don't have to worry about conveying valuable picks to other teams if we're in the lottery)
• Sabonis has not asked out (allowing us to trade him on our terms and get max return)
• Allows us to keep guys like Murray, Ellis, and Carter as their age would allow them to be part of a rebuild (vs. if we decide to rebuild 3-4 years from now)
• Monk and his contract should return a solid piece (that value won't be there when he turns into an expiring)
• SAS technically has the option to swap 1sts in 2031 so rebuilding now gives us a good shot at trying to be competitive again before the 2031 draft (avoiding a disastrous situation)

I don't take Perry for a fool, so why is he choosing a direction that contradicts that logic? And the answer is that it's because Vivek is a fool and is mandating this direction.

Perhaps I'll be surprised and Perry starts a rebuild this offseason or at the trade deadline, but I don't think that's likely at all.

I guess we'll see. So far the rumor is they'll explore moving DeMar. What that means is something time will tell. Perry being a fool is one thing, Perry defying logic to be a good little boy is another. Whoever is leading the charge being foolish is what matters now. Like I said, the most non foolish thing to me is easy, you into summer league this offseason seeing what guys like Jones, Crawford, and Devin look like. Can they be that next Keon type of player you can guarantee to be a fixture moving on? This summer look around, but don't damage anything for a potential rebuild nor to fill a position of need that won't inherently effect this teams chances to mean jack or **** in the West. If it comes to salary moves, cut, cut, cut for the long term unless the assets acquired in the process are worth it. Picks in the 20's or heavily protected picks need not apply. Outside of that if they still want to maintain, run it back with an actual training camp, with an actual system their new coach can put in place. No, LaVine and Domas aren't taking this team anywhere according what it says on paper, but if they aren't too far away from the playoff window then maybe at this next deadline you can throw a package together to get the team up to the next level if it proves worth it. Right now, yeah, the betting odds that it's unlikely but if they have this Vivek "mandate" that's the smartest way of going about it.

 

[SacTownKid]

Even at his advanced age I would gladly welcome Holiday. He was the heart of the Milwaukee team.
Of course we would be one old arse expensive team unless we can unload some of the obvious pieces for some youth.
Theres probably a more appropriate thread for this but my god was Monte incompetent. I had originally liked him but now question who made worse decisions, him or Vlade.

So would I, IF this team had time under it's belt to prove it's potential to make noise in the West. They don't even have a system in place yet. What if they put in a system and Holiday doesn't fit? I heard something about Marcus Smart the other day. Now THAT would be the way to go. Expiring and fills basically some of the same needs. Also a dang good person for someone like Devin to play against every day in practice. If the Kings are clearly pointlessly flapping in the wind by the deadline he could also be a good trade asset for a contender to maybe send some draft capital the Kings way.