Andriod_KiNg
Starter
Fire Westfail.
Fire Paul Westphal
- Thread starter TheWileyVet
- Start date
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
It almost has to be bumped. Its not even if Westphal deserves it or not. Its not even if the Maloofs would do it financially or not given that they just picked up his optin year over the summer and are going to be wincing at throwing another $2mil out the door. Its just that point where it looks like a team may have quit on the coach. How do you get that back?
bajaden
Hall of Famer
This was my greatest fear. The team just looked flat tonight. No fire. The blame has to fall somewhere. You can't fire the team...
xrzn
Starter
Cowboys fired Wade Phillips after the team pretty much gave up on him and they went on to win the next 2 games and played a competitive game against one of the best teams in the NFL today. I don't know how patient you can be with Westphal unless you just want to risk this entire season on seeing if he can somehow turn it around, and by then, you guys might lose Kings to another city.
gunks
Hall of Famer
This team doesnt give a ****.
Coach does some odd stuf, and I think they're sick of it. Cant blame the guys for not buying into a system when there was no system to buy into in the first place.
It sucks, because early on last season Westphal had me convinced he was the best thing since Adelman. Oh wait, he has been the best thing since Adelman. Jeeze we've had some bad coaches in Kings land. Totally hurt our youth development (my theory on Douby/Hawes busts, to be determined re: JT, Reke, Cuz, Whiteside, Omri, Greene).
Coach does some odd stuf, and I think they're sick of it. Cant blame the guys for not buying into a system when there was no system to buy into in the first place.
It sucks, because early on last season Westphal had me convinced he was the best thing since Adelman. Oh wait, he has been the best thing since Adelman. Jeeze we've had some bad coaches in Kings land. Totally hurt our youth development (my theory on Douby/Hawes busts, to be determined re: JT, Reke, Cuz, Whiteside, Omri, Greene).
PurpleHaze
All-Star
I seriously doubt Westphal is fired anytime soon. It's only 14 games in, as bad as it's gotten losing 10 straight or whatever it is. Last season Westphal was judged to have righted the sinking ship with his 25 wins after horrendous disaster of only 17 the previous season. Theus was judged a success after his 38 wins following drunkin' Muss disaster of 33 wins. The Maloof's know they've made a series of questionable (the kindest word) coaching moves dating back to handling of Adelman. I doubt they will just shove someone like Mario Elie into the hot seat knowing that he could be another Kenny Natt clone. Westphal stays for awhile - likely making it through the entire season. The Kings still might scratch out 30 wins and that's probably all one can realistically wish for considering overall mediocre young talent on this team. I do expect a trade or two however, just because some of this junk is just that, junk.
The Kings will not scratch out 30 wins this season if PW remains head coach, and this junk is junk because Westphal is turning it into junk. The Kings have a talented roster, and even a reasonably balanced one, worth far more than its current record, but even the most talented players would look like scrubs under Westphal's non-system. Any trade at this point would be useless. The players we ship out will suddenly flourish elsewhere because they will be playing in a defined system with defined roles, and the players we bring in will become scrubs because they will be just as confused as anyone else.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
You may be right. But if this continues its going to be very embarrasing to the Maloofs. They spent a lot of money on advertising and ticket sales. They got off to a good start and this is pulling the rug out from under them. Something has to change for this team to even match last years total, much less 30 wins. They looked like they were sleepwalking out there tonight. There was little or no energy. I watched Landry and Tyreke get tangled up three times on the same pick and roll, ending with a Griffin dunk. I mean when the guy is killing you, how in the hell can you leave him with no one guarding him. They might as well have put a red carpet to the basket down on the floor.
Its amazing Cousins didn't foul out in the 2nd quarter. Everytime he turned around there was some little guy flying right down the lane at him. It was pathetic! Tyreke looked like he was in a fog. Ok, now I feel better.
PurpleHaze
All-Star
Baja - on one particular play you mention (maybe you remember it) Griffin not only rolled completely unmolested by Reke and Landry but it ended with a slam right in front of Donte who was closest at the end under hoop on right side. What was pathetic is no defensive rotation but it was worse than that. Greene did absolutely nothing like he was resigned, not wanting to be posterized by the next NBA super star. His feet were in cement, his hands at his side and after it was over instead of feeling embarassed he only cracked a little silly smile back at Griffin. I give Landry credit earlier in the game for laying a nice hard foul on Griffin. Unfortunately, the kid ran wild on entire Kings team after that one smack. Oh, I forgot Daly gave Griffin a smash back too which was on one of the first plays of the game. So I guess Kings (some Kings) played tough D for around 4 minutes of this 48 minute sad debacle.
Section 101
All-Star
The way I see it the 25 wins was about right last year. The 17 wins the year before should have been closer to 25, but we got Natted. And if you look at the last half of last year it was closer to the 17 win season. There really hasnt been any improvement the past 3 years. Now some will say we got younger, but the problem is the young guys are staying the same or going backwards at this point.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I think this is the huge issue I am seeing. People are panicking left and right, but much of the panic is misdirected into "we suck" "we're terrible" "trade everybody" etc. stuff. But I watch this team's talent and that is the thing, we DON'T suck. Not talentwise. We've gto a lot of skilled players ont his team, and a number of them who are actually elite in one area or another. But we are underacheiveing so badly right now its miserable. Nearly every single player on the roster is depressed from the level he should be playing at. When things reach that stage, that is when coaches strt feeling the noose tightening.
I too can feel the extra pressure this year. With the arena loming. With the lockout coming. With this supposed to be the year e started moving back toward the playoffs. Starting this poorly this year is so much worse than starting this poorly would have been for any of the last 3-4. Now it all matters and is much more important than it once was. I'm not into panic, but the extra stakes here, the hopes for this season, I think mean that you have to consider things you would not in a meaningless bottoming out year. I will also say this, while Mario Elie is a tough guy who I have long thought might make a good coach, he's also already on staff. If you really wanted to make a dramatic statement, a get your atention move for both the team and the players, naybe now is the time you actually think about brinign in an outside big name to get everybody's attention and signal a turnaround. But of course most of the good ones are already employed, rarely do those guys want to come in midseason...although 15 games might be early enough to not be as big a problem, and then money security might make it impossible too. I'm not sure the Maloofs can afford to make sucha move with their current finances, and a bigger name is going to want probably 3 yrs at least guuaranteeed at a healthy $$ figure. Still, its the sort of thing maybe you avtually consider when the stakes are high and you just HAVE to find some way to turn it around.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
Do they really though? I mean who on this team would you honestly say is elite in any category? The only player who's "elite" in any area I can see is Dalembert in shot blocking. But his offense has sucked so bad that the shot blocking hardly matters.
The more I watch this team the more I realize that they are mostly hype. We've been sold this notion (via some pretty clever marketing) that they have this great young core, are on the rise, etc. but when you really look at the roster, they don't and aren’t.
Everyone on the team with the exception of Evans and DMC are either second tier role players or over-hyped young players with "potential". And if you want to get right down to the cold, harsh truth, Evans and Cousins have been hyped up to be more than they probably are too.
Even in a best case scenario, where they develop and grow over the next few seasons, they’re still probably a 45 win team at best. The only way I can see them ever doing more than that is if either A, Evans and Cousins both develop into star caliber players, or B, by some miracle they land Carmelo or some other top player via free agency or trade.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
No, this is the current losses talking. There are a lot of people, good people, who saw, and with a few wins woudl again see, Reke and Cousins as potential title contending cornerstones, and us folwing an OKC type trajectory. This was hardly a unique viewpoint, nor one restrcted to Kings fans. Cousins, today, might be one of the 5 moxt offensively talented centers in the game. He's wildly unready of course, but he's monstrously skilled. Reke's to the basket game is just about the best I have seen from a player his size in the last...I don't even know how long. Its magical. And guys who can fill up those stat categories are the 2nd rarest and most elite breed in the game (the rarest is the elite center). There is an elite shotblocker/defender in Daly, an aggressive post scorer who was going to win 6th man of the year last year until we plucked him and forced him into the starting lineup (Carl), and at least 5 other guys who could start as roleplayers for various teams around the league (Beno, Cisco, JT, Donte, Casspi, the last two possible more than roleplayers). We may have more top to bottom talent than the Hornets, who are overacheiving like mad.
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RookieOfTheDay
Starter
No, it’s really not. They simply don’t have any impressive players on the roster other than Evans and Cousins and even they have a long way to go. Casspi, Greene, Thompson, and Whiteside, who are supposed to be the rest of the young core, are all unproven question marks at this point. If at least two of the aforementioned players don’t developed to a high level along with Evans and Cousins, the team isn’t going anywhere.
There’s that word again, “potential”. We all know Evans and DMC have the potential to be a great duo in a few years but in no way is it a guarantee. And the fact that the rest of the team is pretty poor, isn’t helping Evans and Cousins get to the point we’d all like them to get to.
In all honesty, if the team still stinks in two years once Evans' and Cousins' rookie contracts are up, do you think they're going to stay? They'd most likely bolt for greener pastures. The way things are looking this year, they’ve made no improvement and may even have somehow managed to regress from last year. That doesn’t give me much hope for things in a few years. Especially not with a lockout looming and the arena issues hanging around like a dark cloud. They needed to show improvement this year, and it’s simply not happening.
That may be true but it really doesn’t matter if he’s stuck on a bad team.
Again, that doesn’t mean a whole lot unless he’s on a good team. Unless things change, The Kings are heading for being The Clippers where they draft great players just to get them warmed up for when a good team signs them.
But we all know he’s most likely a one year rental. Unless he takes a huge pay cut to stay in Sacramento (and why would he?) some other team will sign him.
Landry is a sold player but he wouldn’t start on most good teams and he has an aversion to passing that often hurts the team. Ideally, he should be an offensive “spark plug” off the bench that plays 18-20 minutes, not a starter that plays 35-40 minutes.
Sure those guys could start on some teams, but only on bad ones. That’s my point. They would all be lucky to even see the floor on a 50+ win team.
That depends on how you define talent. If you define it by raw skills and individual potential, then yes. But raw skills and individual potential unfortunately don’t translate to wins.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Yes they do. In the long run that's precisely what they do. That is the whole key that you have missed in thread after thread, post after post: you will never win big without big talent. You could theoretically aim low, as a second class first round speedbump team trying to win 41 games and sneak into the playoffs. That is in fact what we got stcuk doing for 3-4 years after the old teams evaporated. But that's pointless loser talk. All those great talented players on those current great teams were once upn a time nothing but talented young players. But without the talent, they never would have gottten to where they are.
Also your standard for what we would need to become a great team is absurdly high. 4 Tyreke level players at their respective positons in the future not only virtually guarantees us a title, it might make us the GOAT team. A team like Orlando is a contender with one great player, tow other faded good players (Vince and Carter) and a bunch of roleplayers and solid starter types. Even Miami is tow and half greats 1 solid starter who may now be out for the season (Haslem) and scrubs. There are very few teams wiht 4,5,6 great players. The aforementioned Hornets half all of 1 great player. Then 2-3 upper echelon starters, a new solid guy in Jack, and those scrubs again.
Out TALENT base is excellent. that's not the problem right now. Its undeveloped is one problem. But there are many others.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
Sometimes, but certainly not always. There are scores of teams that had lots of potential (i.e. raw talent) that never came close to reaching their potential or developing their talent. I don’t even know how anyone who’s watched a significant amount of NBA basketball could claim otherwise. It generally takes a combination of young potentional and proven vets to win.
Wait, what? You’re under the impression that I’d not agree that you will never win big without big talent? Something gave you the idea that I’m not aware of that fact, or that I’d “missed” it continuously? LOL, what have you been reading? Certainly not my posts because I’d (obviously) agree 100% that you can’t win big without big talent. In fact, much of my posting is devoted to harping on the fact that they don’t have enough talent to win so I have absolutely no clue what gave you the idea that I’d expect to win big without big talent.
I agree.
Well, obviously. But also obvious, is the fact that the league is full of talented players stuck on bad teams. The notion that just having talent means eventually being a good team is absurd. It takes more than collecting talent and waiting for it to develop to make a good team. If that were all it took, most every team in the league would be good.
You’re not reading what I’m saying very carefully. I didn’t say they’d need 4 players that were at Tyreke’s level. I said they’d need at least two other players besides Cousins and Evans to develop to a high level. Developing to a high level doesn’t mean “as good as Tyreke”.
Right. And if we compare them to The Kings, the Kings don’t have any of that. The Kings have two players that could be great in a few years and a bunch of second tier talent surrounding them. The Kings don’t have good vets like Carter and Lewis, they don’t have a PG as good as Nelson, a shooter as good as Redick, etc.
They’re also one game over 500 and facing the harsh reality that a big 2 ½ backed up by mediocre role players just may not be enough to win an NBA title like they thought it would.
Again, not sure why you’re pointing that out since I didn’t claim you’d need 4, 5, or 6 great players. You do need a few guys playing at a high level to go along with your one, two, or three great players, though. That’s why I choose to use “high level” rather than “great”. I thought by doing so it’d be clear that I wasn’t saying you need 4 Kobe’s to win a title. What you do need though, is a Kobe, plus a Gasol, and an Artest, Odom, Bynum, and Fisher to compliment them. Even assuming all goes as good as can be expected and Evans/Cousins become our Kobe/Gasol, they simply don’t have the Artest, Bynum, Odom, or even Fisher caliber player to go with them. Evens/Cousins won’t do it on their own without some high caliber help no matter how good a duo they may theoretically become.
Just look at the last time the Kings were really good. They had their one great player in Webber, plus a semi-great player in Bibby, plus a few really good players in Peja, Divac, and Jackson, plus a few very solid role players in Christy, Pollard, and Hedo. This current Kings team isn’t even close to having a roster that stacked.
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RookieOfTheDay
Starter
Minnesota Timberwolves 2.73 24.22
Memphis Grizzlies 2.57 24.61
Oklahoma City Thunder 3.27 24.73
New York Knicks 3.33 25.12
Wahington Wizards 3.07 25.14
Sacramento Kings 2.86 25.22
New Jersey Nets 4.53 25.84
Toronto Raptors 3.60 25.85
Los Angeles Clippers 4.21 25.94
Golden State Warriors 3.80 26.05
Philadelphia 76ers 4.57 26.22
Portland Trail Blazers 3.80 26.25
Indiana Pacers 4.13 26.30
New Orleans Hornets 4.33 26.38
Houston Rockets 4.20 26.68
Cleveland Cavaliers 3.93 26.70
Milwaukee Bucks 5.07 26.81
Detroit Pistons 5.27 26.84
Phoenix Suns 5.00 27.33
Charlotte Bobcats 5.93 27.41
Atlanta Hawks 5.86 27.42
Utah Jazz 5.46 27.50
Chicago Bulls 5.08 27.57
San Antonio Spurs 5.14 27.93
Orlando Magic 6.64 28.17
Boston Celtics 7.27 28.30
Dallas Mavericks 7.27 28.87
Denver Nuggets 6.71 28.88
Los Angeles Lakers 7.86 29.14
Miami Heat 8.07 30.19
Average Per Team 4.85 26.79
As you can see, the “we’re young” affliction doesn’t seem to be bothering teams like The Thunder, The Knicks, The Warriors, and The Grizzlies nearly as much as it is The Kings. Apparently it’s more important how good you are than how old. Shocking. [sarcasm]
UK_King
Starter
Thanks for that; that's interesting. Griz; Knicks and Thunder are all good teams I bet they don't hear the young team crap every night. Even Toronto are on a pretty good run, same age range as our team.
You'd think being young would be an advantage; at the end of the day we all know its not about age its about quality. If you had a team with Griffin, Durant, Evans, Derrick Rose etc etc no one would be talking about age would they; they'd be talking about playoffs.
the best teams seem to be the oldest though we can't deny that.
You'd think being young would be an advantage; at the end of the day we all know its not about age its about quality. If you had a team with Griffin, Durant, Evans, Derrick Rose etc etc no one would be talking about age would they; they'd be talking about playoffs.
the best teams seem to be the oldest though we can't deny that.
PurpleHaze
All-Star
Too bad there's not a list rating the overall basketball IQ of NBA teams/players (more sarcasm). Afterall, NFL has the Wonderlic Personel Test to rate IQ of QB's.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Youth is always a huge factor in the NBA. And the average age stats there may if anything be somewhat deceptive. In key personnel ages we might be only rivaled by Minny. The best players on Memphis are Gay and Zach, who are I think 5th and 9th year vets. The best guys on OKC are their Big three who are 4th, 4th and 3rd year vets, Our best guys are a rookie and a 2nd year vet. It makes a major difference. Give me Reke and Cousins in their 4th years and I guarantee things look better. Our top guys, the guys theoretically making decisons and winning games for you, are mere babes.
RookieOfTheDay
Starter
Yeah no doubt about that, with the exception of The Thunder who are somewhat of an anomaly. You expect the older more experienced teams to be the best, especially when they're loaded when with talent like The Lakers, Celtics, Magic, Heat, etc. are. But that doesn't mean that young teams should be expected to automatically suck just because they're young.
UK_King
Starter
The thunder have definitely lucked out with some of their talent. We have Greene and Thompson in their 3rd years and they seem to be middling.
The big thing pre season was that Dalambert would bring some vet leadership to the team.... without being inside the camp its hard to define exactly what impact he's having as a veteran voice.
I remember that interview Reke did last year on some show where he said something like "they don't take it seriously" i wonder if thats still the case and most of our players are cruising for that pay check.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I think I remmeber that too, and also him specifically asking for a veteran voice to help out. And we never acquired one (of significance). That might turn out to be a more realistic mistake then all the "why didn't we sign LeBron" stuff. Not that true veteran leaders are that common either. Dalembert BTW has never bben known as a leader. But I actually do think he's inspired some effort around him on defense.
Alas at this time I don't think a random veteran leader could do much to rescue us with the season already underway. Aside from a star of course. But other than maybe my Chauncey suggestion, I can't think of a guy with the sort of instant clout to be able to just show up midseason and say to an establsihed group that ok, now I lead, you follow. And most of my best suggestions are unavailable precisely because of their leadership. Washington needs Hinrich's vet leadership for thei own kids. Houston is so atrocious defensively I doubt they can consider moving Battier even if he has lost something as rumored.
Peja
Bench
This team has quality for better score than 4-10 right now. Last season, we weren't able to win more games, but there was this effort, magic(Bulls game), etc. that really turned Kings into an exciting team again. There is no excitement this season and last night it was clear. To allow Clippers to dunk so many times is just lack of effort. If coach can't change that, he should go. Simple as that. I like PW, but i don't like our score on the table so... win or go away.
Showtime
Starter
Westphal isn't the one who can't hit a 3 to save his life. He's not the one taking poor shots. He's not the one waiting too long to set up offensive sets. He's not the one who misses rotations or can't play defense. This team seems to be underacheiving because you had unrealistic expectations of this team based on last season. Cousins is far from ready at this point, and Evans hasn't improved his game one bit from last season, despite whatever blinders you guys want to put on regarding him. Donte is still Donte, and Omri's only improvement is outside shooting. Nobody has improved like expectations dictated. The problem isn't just them, it's that the fans fooled themselves into false hope. We all expected improvement based on potential, and we aren't seeing it.
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Showtime
Starter
So let's say Westphal does get fired. Who would you guys want? Byron Scott? Jeff Van Gundy? Maybe promote Elie? Bring back Musselman
Scott is coaching the cavs, and JVG won't leave his cake job to coach the Kings. Promoting Ellie runs into a problem: when an assistant is promoted, it's easy to run into a lame duck situation, especially when the coach is getting paid his contract after getting fired. I don't think we should jump ship just yet, although I was the one who thought this choice over Tom T was a huge mistake.
