bajaden
Hall of Famer
Take it up with Knight. It was his quote. I'm sure he could use your knowledge.
Draft Combine: Winners and Losers
- Thread starter lwc
- Start date
Take it up with Knight. It was his quote. I'm sure he could use your knowledge.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
You quoted him, so I assumed you were showing your approval of his statement. It seems ridiculous to me to discount wingspan, reach, and basically every physical attribute a player possesses as relevant to him as a defender. That's not to say different attributes are all equally important, but to discount things like length is burying your head in the sand. It's obvious that footwork and lateral quickness are very important to perimeter defense, perhaps even the most important in today's game where physical contact on the perimeter is so limited, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. Some players may be slow footed, but can contain a player with their wingspan, or use it to be an effective team defender as well (that matters too you know.) I don't care who says what quotes, I don't make appeals to authority, I value statements based on their merit. Any absolutist statement like "length is what matters" or "footwork is what matters," or "IQ is what matters" is not something I respect, it's over simplistic. Like I said, it all matters, but to varying degrees.
Andre Drummond's agility drill score is impressive for a near 7 footer. Barnes did well pretty much everywhere so the odds of him being there at 5 are decreasing. If that means Kidd-Gilchrist slips to us though I won't be complaining. It's always interesting to me when I see someone with a no-step vert which is almost the same as their max vert. I guess those guys are probably two-foot jumpers?
You are way too literal. Bobby Knight coached real college players and got quite a bit out of them. He knows exactly what it took to get kids to learn and unlearn bad habits. And using a quick soundbite about playing defense with your feet sinks in pretty quick with a kid who is reaching far too much. By the time you finished lollygagging that entire diatribe about playing defense, the kid would have been asleep.
Boogie-havoc
Bench
40 inch vertical means jack **** if you don't make it translate in your game - and Barnes doesn't, from watching him play during those 2 years.
MarShon Brooks is a prime example why those athletic testings can be so misleading.
Terrence Ross for example is visibly more athletic in his game then Barnes is, despite testing with lower results - I don't need those almost meaningless tests to know that, I got my own 2 eyes.. I take Barnes results with a grain of salt and so should anyone else who saw him play for UNC.
PS - same goes for Marshall's 37 inch vertical.
MarShon Brooks is a prime example why those athletic testings can be so misleading.
Terrence Ross for example is visibly more athletic in his game then Barnes is, despite testing with lower results - I don't need those almost meaningless tests to know that, I got my own 2 eyes.. I take Barnes results with a grain of salt and so should anyone else who saw him play for UNC.
PS - same goes for Marshall's 37 inch vertical.
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Telemachus
Starter
I agree with you on standing reach. How high you can jump changes depending on a lot of different things. I remember when I was i HS, I could jump and get both my wrists as high as the rim (I'm about 6'). No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get any higher. But I had many people tell me that I often got my elbows above the rim going after rebounds during games. I even remember once grabbing an offensive rebound and realizing (too late to dunk) that my eyes were level with the rim. I think that is why it is so important to watch guys play the game. Some will always perform better during a game than they will doing drills, while others will perform better in drills than in a game.
How many times have you watched a player during pre-game workouts make shot after shot, and then not be able to hit the broad side of a barn once the game started? My point is that the combine is nice for getting some basic numbers on players (especially their measurements), but you can get into trouble if you read too much into those numbers.
rhythmless
Starter
Yes he was, and they were right. That's why he went 5. That's why a large 7 footer who showed the ability to dominate inside did not get chosen 1st, as is usually the case for offensively talented big men. He came in fat, couldn't jump and didn't show off his strength. If DMC did not have questions about his maturity and was actually in shape, he would have gone 2nd minimum, if not 1st.
Yeah but Barnes looked very athletic in high school and he did have his moments at UNC, few and far between though they may have been. I'd be wary if he measured out as subpar, but the numbers at least indicate that his formerly high-flying ways are legit. I don't know if it was the offensive sets or what that held him back at UNC but I'd expect a guy who dominated in the more freelance high school game to do well in the NBA with the wider three point line spreading the defense out, shorter shot clock, and better play calling (...on some teams anyway
)
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Yeah but Barnes looked very athletic in high school and he did have his moments at UNC, few and far between though they may have been. I'd be wary if he measured out as subpar, but the numbers at least indicate that his formerly high-flying ways are legit. I don't know if it was the offensive sets or what that held him back at UNC but I'd expect a guy who dominated in the more freelance high school game to do well in the NBA with the wider three point line spreading the defense out, shorter shot clock, and better play calling (...on some teams anyway
It's because it doesn't necessarily test in-game athleticism. Why can't people just rely on what they see in-game? That's what always proves to be true, regardless of what these unreliable tests say.
roasthawg
Starter
Because these are young athletes whos games are still developing. If Barnes were already as good a basketball player as he's ever gonna be then there's a problem... but it's all about predicting the future and what could be here. This guy wasn't the #1 recruit in the nation coming out of highschool for nothing... there's a lot of upside to his game.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
I'm talking about athleticism, of course other parts of his game could develop, but athleticism is something that tends not improve all that much after a player is physically mature, and Barnes is physically mature. What he can do in tests where they have all the time in the world to launch themselves is not really relevant to game situations.
A lot of top high school recruits disappoint, it happens all the time, and I don't see why Barnes would be an exception.
roasthawg
Starter
He can improve on how he uses his athleticism though... on how it translates to the basketball court.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Or maybe, he's good with a certain type of athleticism that shows up on unreliable athletic tests, but not in that many meaningful situations in games. Athleticism isn't just this one big category you have or you don't, there are many different types of athletic traits in various situations, and one could be good at one and poor at another. Like the difference between being able to jump high with a lot of momentum, but not with little momentum, or the ability to gather and launch quickly, or the ability to jump off two feet well, but not one foot. There's all types of nuances in just leaping ability alone, and the vert tests don't really test that very well.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Ditto. But on the other hand, I hope some of the GMs put inordinate emphasis on the measurements and forget about the games. That's how mistakes happen, and hopefully Petrie can take advantage.
sidney
Starter
If Barnes is all that is left I'd rather try to get Lowry from Houston and trade back picks. Maybe Udoh. To draft another offensive minded, limited upside SF on this team who isn't a great defender and call it a day would be, IMO, a ticket to another 25 win season next year. Draft MKG / Drummond or trade the pick.
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