Donte

[nickmcclure]

I think a lot of people in here are underrating Donte's willingness to be the 3rd option. He's a bit of a glue-guy for our team. We have so many young, unproven guys on the team that when you multiply that by the fact that we have such a terrible record, we see guys like Head, Casspi and Landry try to take over games and start jacking up shots. Donte isn't really prone to that in my opinion and we need some facilitators on this team. It's sometimes to his detriment too but it's good for our team. His allergies to rebounding however...

 

[hrdboild]

When Donte's on his game he's a legitimate building block. His rebounding has never been a strength but he plays solid defense, moves the ball well, can post up or drive with some success and can hit spot up three point shots. When he's not on his game he's forgettable. The same is true for everyone on our team. The trick is getting them to be on their game all of the time.

 

[Ed2009]

I think a lot of people in here are underrating Donte's willingness to be the 3rd option. He's a bit of a glue-guy for our team. We have so many young, unproven guys on the team that when you multiply that by the fact that we have such a terrible record, we see guys like Head, Casspi and Landry try to take over games and start jacking up shots. Donte isn't really prone to that in my opinion and we need some facilitators on this team. It's sometimes to his detriment too but it's good for our team. His allergies to rebounding however...

I´d rather have people like Casspi who are not afraid to take shots then any other players hiding behind.
Coach W. gave him a long break to think and get better. Now he is again a starter but for me still on the same level with the same low impact as before.
If Casspi will finally start to play D- Donte will be sitting constantly on the bench.

 

[Bricklayer]

I´d rather have people like Casspi who are not afraid to take shots then any other players hiding behind.
Coach W. gave him a long break to think and get better. Now he is again a starter but for me still on the same level with the same low impact as before.
If Casspi will finally start to play D- Donte will be sitting constantly on the bench.

You can't have a lienup of gunners -- does not work. There is only one ball, if everyone insistes on shooting it themselvesm then it kills ball movement. You need balance, with a couple of main options, maybe a bavkup option, and then guys unconcerned wiht shots who help you in other ways, Now coming off the bench you have room for 1 or possibly 2 more gunners since they won't be sharing that much time with the starters who eat shots. All good teams have top reolplayers who don't look to shoot unless open. For every Kobe there is a Fisher. For every DWade there is an Arroyo.

 

[Ed2009]

You can't have a lienup of gunners -- does not work. There is only one ball, if everyone insistes on shooting it themselvesm then it kills ball movement. You need balance, with a couple of main options, maybe a bavkup option, and then guys unconcerned wiht shots who help you in other ways, Now coming off the bench you have room for 1 or possibly 2 more gunners since they won't be sharing that much time with the starters who eat shots. All good teams have top reolplayers who don't look to shoot unless open. For every Kobe there is a Fisher. For every DWade there is an Arroyo.

Currently it doenst matter if you start Donte or Omri, as you get the same bad result.
A good player for our team would be a combination of Donte´s D and Casspi´s offense.

 

[ESP47]

Bowen didnt take off till he went to the spurs. That was in his seventh year and 5th team. His highest average pts / game was 8.2 in his 10th year. Career average was 6.1. Donte averaged 8.5 last year. He's way ahead of where Bowen was at the same point in their careers.

Are you going to wait around for seven years hoping Donte will become an anomaly like Bowen? Bowen had awesome D. Donte has ok D. Like I said, if Donte was playing top 5 D, then his offensive production would be ok where it's at. Instead he is playing ok D with terrible offensive and rebounding numbers. Waiting around on Donte because Bowen took time to develope is like waiting for Sheldon Williams to turn into Rodman.

Now if Donte could move the ball around like a Doug Christie or Hedo, then it might be a different story. But as it stands he either never gets the ball, or when he does he turns it over or misses his shots. Not every player is going to be a star but if you are a role player then you need to be able to do more than 1 thing at league average.

 

[nickmcclure]

You can't have a lienup of gunners -- does not work. There is only one ball, if everyone insistes on shooting it themselvesm then it kills ball movement. You need balance, with a couple of main options, maybe a bavkup option, and then guys unconcerned wiht shots who help you in other ways, Now coming off the bench you have room for 1 or possibly 2 more gunners since they won't be sharing that much time with the starters who eat shots. All good teams have top reolplayers who don't look to shoot unless open. For every Kobe there is a Fisher. For every DWade there is an Arroyo.

Thank you for saving me time by typing out my thoughts for me. I am trying to avoid the Donte/Casspi debate again but when Casspi's shot is falling it's awesome. When he's off it absolutely KILLS our offense and he's prone to tunnel vision. To me he's perfect for the 2nd unit. He can provide a nice spark off the bench and he's a scrappy defender with good speed. That being said Donte is a much better defender and I like the fact that he's 6'11'' and can take people off the dribble as well as shoot the ball. IMO Donte's play is pretty constructive to keeping our starting unit fluid. When he gets off to a good start hitting shots and getting alley-oops he gets more attention from the other team's defense and that's where his willingness to set up others helps A LOT. It spreads the floor for Tyreke and Beno to do their thing. Casspi to me is a bit more one-dimensional. I swear he refuses to pass on a fast break and it's to his detriment cause the defense knows he's gonna be the one shooting the ball. Casspi is starting to improve his shot selection and consistency but for right now Donte is better in the starting role.

 

[Section 101]

Are you going to wait around for seven years hoping Donte will become an anomaly like Bowen? Bowen had awesome D. Donte has ok D. Like I said, if Donte was playing top 5 D, then his offensive production would be ok where it's at. Instead he is playing ok D with terrible offensive and rebounding numbers. Waiting around on Donte because Bowen took time to develope is like waiting for Sheldon Williams to turn into Rodman.

Now if Donte could move the ball around like a Doug Christie or Hedo, then it might be a different story. But as it stands he either never gets the ball, or when he does he turns it over or misses his shots. Not every player is going to be a star but if you are a role player then you need to be able to do more than 1 thing at league average.

Yes you wait. Also, Bowen played 4 years of college to Donte's 1 year. This is still only Donte's 3rd year, he would still be a SR in college. I guess you wanted Wallace gone too when the Kings let him go.

 

[Bricklayer]

Are you going to wait around for seven years hoping Donte will become an anomaly like Bowen? Bowen had awesome D. Donte has ok D. Like I said, if Donte was playing top 5 D, then his offensive production would be ok where it's at. Instead he is playing ok D with terrible offensive and rebounding numbers. Waiting around on Donte because Bowen took time to develope is like waiting for Sheldon Williams to turn into Rodman.

Now if Donte could move the ball around like a Doug Christie or Hedo, then it might be a different story. But as it stands he either never gets the ball, or when he does he turns it over or misses his shots. Not every player is going to be a star but if you are a role player then you need to be able to do more than 1 thing at league average.

This Donte plays average D line of bunk has realy got to stop. He routinely plays quite good D actually. Not Bowen D no. But he's a good defensive player who when inspired shows flashes of being a great defensive player. The stats actually say he is better than that. But either way he is a significant impediment, and since his arrival in the starting lineup our defense has not been consistently awful. Not consistently great, but we were pretty close to dead last before he popped into the lineup, and now we're closer to maybe 20-23rd. Oou oposing ppg is now 21st. Opp FG% 25th. And that is after those numbers pretty much being 29th/30th through those first weeks of the season. Donte hasn't done that all himself, but he's been a definite part of it, and that's while he and our handful of otehr strong defenders are still hving to cover for various poor ones (who I think are giving better effort themselves now).

 

[beb0p]

This Donte plays average D line of bunk has realy got to stop. He routinely plays quite good D actually. Not Bowen D no. But he's a good defensive player who when inspired shows flashes of being a great defensive player.

It's time we stop settling for mediocrity. A guy who plays not quite as good D as Bowen and can't always hit the open shots and isn't a good rebounder and can't handle the ball is essentially an 8th to 11th man in most teams. Back when the supposed potential is Rashard Lewis, you could rationalize that he was worth the wait. But not Bruce Bowen light. You don't wait three to five years for the a guy who's not quite as good as Bruce Bowen. There are no shortage of Bruce Bowen light in this league fighting for their jobs or looking for one, there is no reason to have to wait years for a player that you can pick up cheaply.

That's not to say Donte didn't play good D and sometimes great D, but the cold hard truth is that the Kings need more out of the SF position. A lot more. If his potential is merely that of a solid role player, the Kings need to look elsewhere. You don't settle on a potential solid role player when you're 5-20 because you'll always be at the cellar when your bar is set low.

Bottom line is that as surprising good as he has been on defense, he still needs to play better.

 

[Bricklayer]

It's time we stop settling for mediocrity. A guy who plays not quite as good D as Bowen and can't always hit the open shots and isn't a good rebounder and can't handle the ball is essentially an 8th to 11th man in most teams. Back when the supposed potential is Rashard Lewis, you could rationalize that he was worth the wait. But not Bruce Bowen light. You don't wait three to five years for the a guy who's not quite as good as Bruce Bowen. There are no shortage of Bruce Bowen light in this league fighting for their jobs or looking for one, there is no reason to have to wait years for a player that you can pick up cheaply.

That's not to say Donte didn't play good D and sometimes great D, but the cold hard truth is that the Kings need more out of the SF position. A lot more. If his potential is merely that of a solid role player, the Kings need to look elsewhere. You don't settle on a potential solid role player when you're 5-20 because you'll always be at the cellar when your bar is set low.

Bottom line is that as surprising good as he has been on defense, he still needs to play better.

The Kings may need more out of one of our positions today, but 2 of the 5 starting positions on the team are eventually going to be filled by roleplayers. And they don't all have to be Bruce Bowen. That defensive roleplayer has gone by many names while barely scraping 10pts a game. Sometimes he's called Bowen, sometimes Sefalosha. Sometimes Hassel, or Fox, or Horry, or Elie, or Harper or Afflalo or Battier or whoever. But he's almost always there on good teams doing his work and greasing the machine without fighting over the ball with the stars. And rarely has he been at his peak at age 22.

Donte is a VERY promising defender. Already good, with great physical skills, and still very young. Half of those big name defenders I have listed were still in college at his age. That player may or may not start but he's nearly universally useful, even on the good teams. Scratch that, maybe especially on the good teams.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Count me among those who conclude Greene is an average or mediocre NBA defender. I've seen way too many times his man blow by him with a quick move leaving "Buckets" stuck in mud. That would not be as bad if it were not for his often confused or lackadaisical at best help D. Again, I've seen too many times slow reaction on defensive switches. Worst of all with someone driving into the lane off a screen and Donte last resort to do something about it under the hoop - he just stands there like a wallflower. I'm not saying he doesn't occasionally have a defensive moment (like the over-reacted, hyped Kobe block), or a quarter of more of so-called lock down D - but like his routine overall inconsistancy such moments are pathetically rare.

Now he and the Kings get Golden State tonight at ARCO. Look at the Houston box score from last night. The Rockets 122 points in Oakland were amazingly spread out, extremely balanced among their starters and bench. It would appear to be another track meet against those high scoring W's who had 114 scored last night - unless Donte Greene and his teammates can do something, anything to counter it.

 

[beb0p]

The Kings may need more out of one of our positions today, but 2 of the 5 starting positions on the team are eventually going to be filled by roleplayers. And they don't all have to be Bruce Bowen. That defensive roleplayer has gone by many names while barely scraping 10pts a game. Sometimes he's called Bowen, sometimes Sefalosha. Sometimes Hassel, or Fox, or Horry, or Elie, or Harper or Afflalo or Battier or whoever. But he's almost always there on good teams doing his work and greasing the machine without fighting over the ball with the stars. And rarely has he been at his peak at age 22.

I get your point Brick, but you're cutting some of the players short - Horry, Hassell, Elie, Harper, and Afflalo can shoot and score, they just chose not to; and some of them can even dribble, pass, and in short spurt run the plays. Greene can't do any of that with any consistency. And on top of that Greene is not as good as those guys are defensively. So essentially you're comparing Greene to guys who are simply better. That's where I think the disconnect is. Greene's game right now is much closer to Jamario Moon than Robert Horry. And I can guarantee Moon will never find himself playing a prominent role in a championship calibre team.

And yes you're right that that defensive player goes by many names. So many, in fact, they are found on just about any NBA team and even more can't even get in the league. The supply of such a defensive stalwart outstrips the demand making it pointless to hog such a player.

While Greene's defense was at times good, occasionally great, but also at times not so great. What was the reason for PW switching Tyreke to guard KMart after two minutes of Donte guarding him? Is it because PW saw that Donte can't guard Martin? What is the point of having a defensive stalwart if it still ends up with your franchise PG guarding the opposing team's best weapon? I think there are still question mark about Donte's defense, I don't think he is the great defensive stopper that he's made out to be, at least not yet. I don't mind giving him minutes until such time that he plays better (maybe even on the same level as the guys you mentioned) and thus earns the starting job or the Kings find a better replacement.

 

[Bricklayer]

Count me among those who conclude Greene is an average or mediocre NBA defender. I've seen way too many times his man blow by him with a quick move leaving "Buckets" stuck in mud. That would not be as bad if it were not for his often confused or lackadaisical at best help D. Again, I've seen too many times slow reaction on defensive switches. Worst of all with someone driving into the lane off a screen and Donte last resort to do something about it under the hoop - he just stands there like a wallflower. I'm not saying he doesn't occasionally have a defensive moment (like the over-reacted, hyped Kobe block), or a quarter of more of so-called lock down D - but like his routine overall inconsistancy such moments are pathetically rare.

Now he and the Kings get Golden State tonight at ARCO. Look at the Houston box score from last night. The Rockets 122 points in Oakland were amazingly spread out, extremely balanced among their starters and bench. It would appear to be another track meet against those high scoring W's who had 114 scored last night - unless Donte Greene and his teammates can do something, anything to counter it.

Look, not only are you guys just flat WRONG, and this comes from a former defensive specialist myself, but the numbers rather radically disagree with your statement as well. There is just nothing to be said for calling Donte's defense mediocre except that people just don't know what they are watching.

Not only is his defensive +/- massive, but his opponent's production is the second lowest ont eh whole team behind Dalembert. oops, scratch that, third lowest behind Dalembert and Head. In fact his opponent's production (12.8) is lower than Shane Battier's (15.4), Thabo Sefalosha's (14.4), Arron Afflalo's (15.4) and Ron Artest's (16.5). Kobe does edge him at 12.0.

My eyes aren;t the ones doing the lying to me. I know good defense, and all the numbers we have back it up. You can feel the difference when he is on the court. Casspi BTW, playing the same position for the same team, has an opponent's production rating of 20.8.

 

[Bricklayer]

I get your point Brick, but you're cutting some of the players short - Horry, Hassell, Elie, Harper, and Afflalo can shoot and score, they just chose not to; and some of them can even dribble, pass, and in short spurt run the plays. Greene can't do any of that with any consistency. And on top of that Greene is not as good as those guys are defensively. So essentially you're comparing Greene to guys who are simply better. That's where I think the disconnect is. Greene's game right now is much closer to Jamario Moon than Robert Horry. And I can guarantee Moon will never find himself playing a prominent role in a championship calibre team.

And yes you're right that that defensive player goes by many names. So many, in fact, they are found on just about any NBA team and even more can't even get in the league. The supply of such a defensive stalwart outstrips the demand making it pointless to hog such a player.

While Greene's defense was at times good, occasionally great, but also at times not so great. What was the reason for PW switching Tyreke to guard KMart after two minutes of Donte guarding him? Is it because PW saw that Donte can't guard Martin? What is the point of having a defensive stalwart if it still ends up with your franchise PG guarding the opposing team's best weapon? I think there are still question mark about Donte's defense, I don't think he is the great defensive stopper that he's made out to be, at least not yet. I don't mind giving him minutes until such time that he plays better (maybe even on the same level as the guys you mentioned) and thus earns the starting job or the Kings find a better replacement.

You appear to have been watching the game in a mirror or some such -- Tyreke started on Kevin. Donte was switched on him after the first 8 point burst and harassed him into his semi-irrelevance the rest of the way.

 

[nickmcclure]

I think that Donte's defense is the last thing that should be questioned as far as his game goes. Aside from being able to see it in the boxscore he also sets defensive screens and with his active hands he pokes the ball away from the other team a few times a game, often to another Kings player. These things aren't in the boxscore and are often forgotten, but that's good D.

 

[beb0p]

You appear to have been watching the game in a mirror or some such -- Tyreke started on Kevin. Donte was switched on him after the first 8 point burst and harassed him into his semi-irrelevance the rest of the way.

I'm going to cut you some slack since you did a write up on the game, but it was Donte guarding KMart for a couple minutes, then Tyreke guading KMart for most of the first quarter. Then Donte was taken out of the game. When he comes back in the 2nd half Martin was not in the game and Donte didn't get significant minutes in the 2nd half as PW was going with Garcia instead of Donte. Maybe you should check your notes. You probably remembered the block Donte had on Martin and the shooting foul committed by Donte on KMart, but Donte was not guarding KMart for most of the game.

 

[bajaden]

Count me among those who conclude Greene is an average or mediocre NBA defender. I've seen way too many times his man blow by him with a quick move leaving "Buckets" stuck in mud. That would not be as bad if it were not for his often confused or lackadaisical at best help D. Again, I've seen too many times slow reaction on defensive switches. Worst of all with someone driving into the lane off a screen and Donte last resort to do something about it under the hoop - he just stands there like a wallflower. I'm not saying he doesn't occasionally have a defensive moment (like the over-reacted, hyped Kobe block), or a quarter of more of so-called lock down D - but like his routine overall inconsistancy such moments are pathetically rare.

Now he and the Kings get Golden State tonight at ARCO. Look at the Houston box score from last night. The Rockets 122 points in Oakland were amazingly spread out, extremely balanced among their starters and bench. It would appear to be another track meet against those high scoring W's who had 114 scored last night - unless Donte Greene and his teammates can do something, anything to counter it.

I've stated that I think Donte's defense is overrated. But that doesn't mean I think he's a bad defender. Actually I think he's one of the better defenders on the team. My poiint is that I thought some were putting him in the Bowen and Artest class, and he's not there yet. I think Greene has a couple of problems. One is that he's still mentally maturing. I'm still not convinced he's turned the corner when it comes to total dedication to his game. But he's a lot closer. Compared to his first year in the league, he's made a quantum leap forward. Unfortunately, he was about 3 quantum leaps away from where he needs to go. But progress is progress. Or as Bill Murray said, Tiny Steps, Tiny Steps. His second, and probably biggest problem is that he's having to learn while under fire. There aren't many players that come into the league ready to play, and Donte was very ill prepared. Both skill wise and mentally.

This last one applies to others on the Kings team. Used to be that players coming into the league had 4 years of college under their belt. And then, unless they were stars in college, they usually spent a couple of years at the end of the bench behind better and more experienced players. By the time they were needed, they were usually ready. In a perfect world, the Casspi's and Greene's of the world would still be on the bench trying to suck up a few minutes here and there. There would be no pressure on them, and their names wouldn't be bandied about on fourms like this one. No one would be screaming for their heads, or wanting to trade them. Usually quite the opposite. People would be chanting their names at the end of games trying to get the coach to put them in the game. Look how well Ronnie Price plays for the Jazz now. He's turned into a solid role player for them.

Times are different now, and unfortunately the expectations of the fans remain the same despite the disparity in the quality of the product coming out of college and into the NBA. The truth is, its not fair to the fans, and its not fair to the players. At least the players are well compensated. The fans aren't.