Dilemma of era for the kings...

[cwebb_bobster]

compare the kings of today with the era were chris webber was an obvious pillar of that era. would'nt you agree that they were more successful overall than we are as of now?... i had a realization... i believe it was because of chris that made everyone in the team effective... and it's funny that the mogoofs decided to trade a player of his calibur due to some bum ankle, he didnt need to score anyway right? he was there for the plays and the rotation of the ball.. i really agree that; from mike bibby, to peja, and more especially to brad miller.. that webber was the reason they played like all stars... that being said, i think it was a mistake to leave the role of leadership behind to brad, peja and bibby... and now here comes ron-ron... which brings a totally different style on the table; but with role players fit to webber... i think the only player that actually had an effective and collaborative game with artest is bonzi and shareef.. a ron and bonzi combo would have been really awesome to see; just to pumped up bad boys who does the unsual role of the 2 and 3... bang and rebound! bonzi should have stayed...
i think it is best that the kings just completely change there line-up with people that will have good chemistry with ron, if their planning to make ron the next ceasar of the kings... although this is just an opinion; i sorted out the roster of who stays and who walks...
stay:
artest
shareef: he should start along with a center that can block
williamson: he should get his playing time!
garcia
martin: lets not get too excited here... let him come off the bench again...
*bibby... no matter how unfitting he may be.. he's ranked in the top ten point gaurds...
trade:
thomas: well, to tell you frankly i just hate his gutts and the way he plays... rebound machine whatever... he's to skimpy for his position anyway.. i'd gladly get anyone in return for him...
miller: i heard that the pacers want him back.. hmm, maybe we could get foster and some other guards for him..
hart and the rest of the crew!: useless...

 

[thatguy]

So what exactly is the dilemma here?

 

[Vitamin K]

Webber didn't have a bum ankle, he had microfracture surgery on his knee. That is a devasting surgery and he has not been the same player since and that is why the Maloffs/Geoff Petrie traded him, not to mention his contract. Now you can argue they didn't get much in return, but maybe that is all they could get for him at the time.

 

[Merdiesel]

I am a fan of Williamson but i think its time for him to go as well, we need to make room for players that can be alot more effective then he can be at his age.

 

[kingsfanofthemonth]

This is dumb, but Webb never had a bum ankle, it was a surgically repaired knee. And yes he can still initiate offense and score, they had no problem scoring in Philly last year. The problem is he can't play a lick of defense. He couldn't stop anybody and doesn't fit with our new scheme. Face it, old Webber is gone and so are the day of The Greatest Show on Court.

 

[bajaden]

agreed

This is dumb, but Webb never had a bum ankle, it was a surgically repaired knee. And yes he can still initiate offense and score, they had no problem scoring in Philly last year. The problem is he can't play a lick of defense. He couldn't stop anybody and doesn't fit with our new scheme. Face it, old Webber is gone and so are the day of The Greatest Show on Court.

Ditto........

 

[Kings113]

*yawn* I need some sleep.

 

[Bricklayer]

This is dumb, but Webb never had a bum ankle, it was a surgically repaired knee.

Actually before the knee injury whihc ended that era, Webb struggled with a series of ankle injuries during the previous couple of seasons that slowed him. Always seemed to come at the hands of Utah or Najera.

 

[Alacron]

Actually before the knee injury whihc ended that era, Webb struggled with a series of ankle injuries during the previous couple of seasons that slowed him. Always seemed to come at the hands of Utah or Najera.

Don't forget the time Massenburg "accidentally" slid underneath him on a jumpshot...

 

[Widowmaker2k]

Webber didn't have a bum ankle, he had microfracture surgery on his knee. That is a devasting surgery and he has not been the same player since and that is why the Maloffs/Geoff Petrie traded him, not to mention his contract. Now you can argue they didn't get much in return, but maybe that is all they could get for him at the time.

Well, this horse is pretty dead, but I'll bite:

Not only did the Kings not get much in return, but they got to keep his contract too. We've done nothing the 3 'trade assets' we got back. Skinner is gone, but his contract is still on the books with Sergei and Vitaly, so basically all we got was Kenny Freaking Thomas... Even in his current state of health Webber >>> Thomas. A lineup of Bibby, Martin, Artest, Webber, Miller would be pretty damn good.

Anyways, back on topic:
I'm more inclined to keep Miller if at all possible. He's still a good center, just not a good center for this team. Unless the right deal comes around, I'd rather try and find a big, defensive Power Forward to start along side of him to cover his weaknesses then to just trade him for "Foster and some other guards." Now, I know that this elusive big man is a rare commodity in the NBA, but so is an allstar center.

I also disagree about Bibby not being a good fit. Bibby is an excellent point guard; He may not be quick, but he can shoot and dish with the best of them. His 'tora tora tora' defense is not what we need, but this could be somewhat made up for in several scenarios:

Martin's emergence as a defender: The Kid's got all the physical tools to do it on the perimeter. He's long, quick, and athletic, so I could see him becoming a decent perimeter defender.

The Magic Big Man: As long as Bibby can stop his man from getting uncontested jump shots, a shot-blocker in the middle could go a long way to stop players who are quicker then him and beat him off the dribble.

Where do we get this big man? Who knows...well, hopefully Petrie has some ideas.

 

[VF21]

Well, this horse is pretty dead, but I'll bite:

Not only did the Kings not get much in return, but they got to keep his contract too. We've done nothing the 3 'trade assets' we got back. Skinner is gone, but his contract is still on the books with Sergei and Vitaly, so basically all we got was Kenny Freaking Thomas... Even in his current state of health Webber >>> Thomas. A lineup of Bibby, Martin, Artest, Webber, Miller would be pretty damn good.

Anyways, back on topic:
I'm more inclined to keep Miller if at all possible. He's still a good center, just not a good center for this team. Unless the right deal comes around, I'd rather try and find a big, defensive Power Forward to start along side of him to cover his weaknesses then to just trade him for "Foster and some other guards." Now, I know that this elusive big man is a rare commodity in the NBA, but so is an allstar center.

I also disagree about Bibby not being a good fit. Bibby is an excellent point guard; He may not be quick, but he can shoot and dish with the best of them. His 'tora tora tora' defense is not what we need, but this could be somewhat made up for in several scenarios:

Martin's emergence as a defender: The Kid's got all the physical tools to do it on the perimeter. He's long, quick, and athletic, so I could see him becoming a decent perimeter defender.

The Magic Big Man: As long as Bibby can stop his man from getting uncontested jump shots, a shot-blocker in the middle could go a long way to stop players who are quicker then him and beat him off the dribble.

Where do we get this big man? Who knows...well, hopefully Petrie has some ideas.

If you look at the salary cap state of the team right now and then look at the state of the salary cap after the end of this season, you might be able to get the beginnings of a glimmer of a hint of a possible idea...

Then when you look at the amalgam of guards Petrie has been amassing, you might - should you be so inclined - begin to suspect perhaps more of a glimmer.

One of the voices in my head keeps telling me that there's a reason he's stockpiling certain types of players and putting what could well be viewed as bandaids at the 4...

Of course, it could all be part of that vast Kevin Garnett theory the voices have been whispering to me since Webber left, but wouldn't it be interesting if ... ?

 

[SacTownKid]

Petrie is simply stockpiliing players that have high basketball intelligence, can shoot, pass, are athletic, and can play multiple positions. I personally think it's to build depth at those positions but whatever dreams some may wish to elicit from that is their own decision.

 

[Widowmaker2k]

If you look at the salary cap state of the team right now and then look at the state of the salary cap after the end of this season, you might be able to get the beginnings of a glimmer of a hint of a possible idea...

Then when you look at the amalgam of guards Petrie has been amassing, you might - should you be so inclined - begin to suspect perhaps more of a glimmer.

One of the voices in my head keeps telling me that there's a reason he's stockpiling certain types of players and putting what could well be viewed as bandaids at the 4...

Of course, it could all be part of that vast Kevin Garnett theory the voices have been whispering to me since Webber left, but wouldn't it be interesting if ... ?

I agree that getting KG is the ultimate "wet dream" scenario for the Kings, even more so for the Kings because he is 'Super Chris Webber,' but I have to wonder what if this is at all likely. In my opinion, there are two main models for championship caliber teams:

1. Superstar: In this model, the team is all about turning a great player into an unstoppable one, and hoping that he has the cajones to put the team on his back and take them all the way. When it all works, it makes a legend out of one player and champions out of the rest. The rub lays in the fact that if the superstar falters even a little bit, the team will flame out in a blaze of infamy. This is, in effect, putting all of your eggs in one very spectacular basket.

2. Team: This is what I call the championship Pistons. Instead of relying on the talent of one star, you rely on the skill of an entire lineup. On paper this sounds great, creating a team that can absorb minor flaws in its major players, but in practice, this isn't as succsessful. Even if you look at the Pistons, they relied on defense, the tried and true method of winning a game not by scoring more points then your oponent, but by forcing him to score fewer points than you. One through five, our Kings are not a defensive squad. Sure they have a couple of good defenders, but we would need a complete make-over, involving the trading of several key players to even attempt this model. I just don't think it is in the cards.

The question is, where do we go from here? Next years draft lottery looks to be extremely productive, but do we tank the season to get in? Maybe we can try and package Miller, Bibby, or both for a high lottery pick? Either way it's a gamble, but so is constructing a team predicated on a trade (for KG) that will probably never happen. I personally don't think that clearing cap space to sign free agents is the answer to our problems. Didn't KG recently sign a contract extension? No matter how you look at it, we don't have a championship team. We have enough talent, but not allocated in a manner condusive to playoff success.

I don't think Petrie is necessarily to blame, but it seems that lately, he hasn't really taken the aggresive stance that won him GM of the year. The Webber trade, generally considered one of the worst in Sacramento history, was probably not his doing, and likely was forced by the Maloofs. Conversely, the Artest trade was also not likely a Petrie move, but is probably the best trade we've pulled off in years. I have to wonder is Geoff is asleep...because it doesn't seem like he has a real plan for the Kings. Instead of taking risks and making the team better, it seems more like he's just interested in making sure they don't get any worse, which won't do any good for us in the long run. A great example of this is the drafting of Quincy Douby. While not a bad draft pick persay, it really wasn't what I was hoping for. The Douby pick was a safe, solid draft pick of a player who can very likeley become a contributor to this team, but why didn't he take Marcus Williams? We NEED a backup PG, almost as bad as we need a shot-blocking big. Sure Douby can occupy the space on the floor allocated for a point guard, but can he someday be expected to be an effective starter at the one? Probably not. Was Marcus Williams a huge question mark? Yes, but his upside was big enough that he could become a very special player in this league. The Kings are chock full of solid contributors, and I for one would have loved for Geoff to gamble on a project, because to win it all, you've got to risk it all, and Mr. Petrie doesn't seem willing to do that.

 

[VF21]

The question is, where do we go from here? Next years draft lottery looks to be extremely productive, but do we tank the season to get in? Maybe we can try and package Miller, Bibby, or both for a high lottery pick? Either way it's a gamble, but so is constructing a team predicated on a trade (for KG) that will probably never happen. I personally don't think that clearing cap space to sign free agents is the answer to our problems. Didn't KG recently sign a contract extension? No matter how you look at it, we don't have a championship team. We have enough talent, but not allocated in a manner condusive to playoff success.

We do NOT tank the season. I would never root for a team that intentionally lost and I cannot imagine the Maloofs agreeing to such a thing. They want to win. And free agency is what got this whole dream started in the first place, in case you've forgotten. It was getting Vlade to come here that got us on the road to what we would become.

Having said that, I'm not advocating any particular course of action at this point because I simply do not have all the facts available that Geoff Petrie has.

I don't think Petrie is necessarily to blame, but it seems that lately, he hasn't really taken the aggresive stance that won him GM of the year. The Webber trade, generally considered one of the worst in Sacramento history, was probably not his doing, and likely was forced by the Maloofs. Conversely, the Artest trade was also not likely a Petrie move, but is probably the best trade we've pulled off in years. I have to wonder is Geoff is asleep...because it doesn't seem like he has a real plan for the Kings. Instead of taking risks and making the team better, it seems more like he's just interested in making sure they don't get any worse, which won't do any good for us in the long run. A great example of this is the drafting of Quincy Douby. While not a bad draft pick persay, it really wasn't what I was hoping for. The Douby pick was a safe, solid draft pick of a player who can very likeley become a contributor to this team, but why didn't he take Marcus Williams? We NEED a backup PG, almost as bad as we need a shot-blocking big. Sure Douby can occupy the space on the floor allocated for a point guard, but can he someday be expected to be an effective starter at the one? Probably not. Was Marcus Williams a huge question mark? Yes, but his upside was big enough that he could become a very special player in this league. The Kings are chock full of solid contributors, and I for one would have loved for Geoff to gamble on a project, because to win it all, you've got to risk it all, and Mr. Petrie doesn't seem willing to do that.

Amidst all that, I'll only comment on the Marcus Williams comment. From what I've heard, TPTB are VERY impressed with Quincy Douby, his shooting, his tenaciousness, etc. I do not fault them in the slightest for not taking Marcus Williams. They are in a much better position than I to guage a player's potential, and in this case I would have been disappointed had they chosen Williams. Only time will tell.

It's TDOS. To NOT mention the dream of getting KG into a Kings uniform once in a while would be sacrilegious.

 

[Widowmaker2k]

We do NOT tank the season. I would never root for a team that intentionally lost and I cannot imagine the Maloofs agreeing to such a thing. They want to win. And free agency is what got this whole dream started in the first place, in case you've forgotten. It was getting Vlade to come here that got us on the road to what we would become.

I wasn't actually advocating that we tank the season, I was simply stating hypotheticals that could land us HOF caliber talent. No offence intended here at all, but I don't see our future in free agency. In my opinion, we need a superstar, and any team that has one is not likely willing to let them walk in free agency. Perhaps we can use free agency to grab roll players to build around a future superstar, but until we've found one, we'll be a team searching for an identity.

Amidst all that, I'll only comment on the Marcus Williams comment. From what I've heard, TPTB are VERY impressed with Quincy Douby, his shooting, his tenaciousness, etc. I do not fault them in the slightest for not taking Marcus Williams. They are in a much better position than I to guage a player's potential, and in this case I would have been disappointed had they chosen Williams. Only time will tell.

I see what you are saying, but to me, the Douby selection was Geoff playing it safe. He may very well turn out to be the better player, but regardless of the outcome, the selection in and of itself has meaning. Williams was the high risk, high payout pick, and I think that we need to start taking some gambles. It seems to me that in any championship team, there is a lot of luck. I'll take a lucky team over a skilled team any day of the week and twice in the finals. When we play it safe, we are saying that we're too afraid of loosing to try and win.

It's TDOS. To NOT mention the dream of getting KG into a Kings uniform once in a while would be sacrilegious.

Haha, agreed!

 

[OldSchoolKing]

Petrie is simply stockpiliing players that have high basketball intelligence, can shoot, pass, are athletic, and can play multiple positions. I personally think it's to build depth at those positions but whatever dreams some may wish to elicit from that is their own decision.

agreed.