Entity
Hall of Famer
Lets put it this way. do you want DMC or Sam D going out to guard Lamar Odom, David West, Shawn Marion, Dirk, Rashard, and a few other pf that like to go out on the perimeter.
DeMarcus Cousins : "Bynum doesn't deserve to touch the trophy!"
- Thread starter Peter_Gibbons
- Start date
Lets put it this way. do you want DMC or Sam D going out to guard Lamar Odom, David West, Shawn Marion, Dirk, Rashard, and a few other pf that like to go out on the perimeter.
Dunkster
G-League
Yeah idc, is the right answer Dalenbert? Im sorry I play a lot of SG or SF. I dont know what they do really. There both bolders who i guess can guard anybody they want.
Telemachus
Starter
The answer is neither. If we ask either Dalembert or Cousins to the quicker PFs that can shoot, then we take them away from their strengths on defense. And if they have to run around trying to guard quicker players on defense it will likely take energy away from them on the offensive side of the court. The last part being a much bigger deal for Cousins than Dalembert (Cousins can be dominant on offense, while Dalembert will never be).
Dunkster
G-League
So that makes me right. PF and C are basicaly the same thing.
The Hammer
All-Star
I have a feeling that PW might play around with a DMC/Sammy front line, have DMC play more of the center position on offense, and on defense just have DMC guard the bigger guy, which would most likely be the center. A line up like that could work especially with Landry at the three, who can shoot the mid range shot. Then you put Donte at the two, and that is an impressive line up on both ends. This will help hide some of Landry's defensive weakness (not that strong defensively in the post), and at least when Donte is in there, it still gives us two very strong perimeter defenders. That would be a hell of a lineup to try to score on, oh and if our bigs need a rest, we put Whiteside in to spell either DMC or Sammy. And JT in spot minutes too. JT could also has the outside shot that could work for bits of time at the three. Again, this works much better with an elite perimeter defender at the two, which for us is Donte. And if we pick up another gem from summer league for the minimum who can really defend the perimeter, it gives us more flexibility at the 3, 4, 5 because you've got that SG being put on the better perimeter player of the other teams 2 or 3. Few teams have three elite perimeter players, so if we have two players that can guard the perimeter well, we should do ok out there, and it will allow is to just go crazy big and tough at three positions/interior D.
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Telemachus
Starter
I have no idea how you could possibly get that out of what i said. There are a lot of PFs in the league that are either quick or primarily outside shooter (or both). Both Cousins and Dalembert would struggle on defense if they had to guard these players for extended periods of time. The extra running around would likely hurt them on offense as well.
For whatever reason, the current NBA has tried to make the PF & C positions almost interchangeable. However, I find it ironic that the top teams in the league are those with true centers (not a PF playing center). It used to be that the center was also called the pivot (now they just call whoever is posting up the pivot). When all is said and done, the truth is that the Kings don't need Cousins to play at PF. They have Landry and JT who are both very capable of playing PF. They also envision Whiteside spending a lot of time at PF in the future as well. Throw in Brockman (if resigned) and the fact that Greene can also slide over to PF, and I would ask why are we trying to put our center of the future over there?
NME
Starter
I don't know either. We have two centers and 4-5 PF's, and people are figuring out how to make one of our centers another PF.
Um, no. It means it might impact one more than the other, but except for rare situations I doubt we will see either playing the 4. It just isn't their position. I still am baffled why some insist on playing guys in positions that don't suit their skills.......
bajaden
Hall of Famer
No, there not. Although they've become more interchangable of late. Lets put it this way. If you have and undersized center on you team, such as Horford, or Jason Thompson when he's had to play there, then there's not much of a difference defensively for them when they have to guard a PF. The reason being, is that in reality both guys are PF's playing out of position. But when you put a 6'11" or 7 foot 280 to 300 pound center out there on the perimiter trying to guard an Anthony Randolph or a Amare Stoudemire, your now in trouble. Those guys have too much quickness to be guarded out there where they have room to move. But move that same 7 foot center down into the post, where space becomes condensed, and then he can guard that quick PF a lot easier.
Most PF's play at the top of the key or on the left or right wing at 15 to 17 feet. Unfortunately in todays NBA too many PF's play behind the 3 pt line. A low post center is going to play from the left or the right post within 5 to 7 feet from the basket on defense and might set up as far away as 10 to 12 feet on offense, except when running the pick and roll where he will come out to the top of the key and set the pick. You can also run the the pick and roll from either wing. Basketball is all about matchups. Thats the point of the pick and roll. The offensive team wants nothing more than to get the opposing teams center out on the perimiter staring at a 6 foot very quick point guard. Because now the oppossing team has their center who set the pick being guarded by the other teams point guard. The options at that point are endless.
So when you mentioned that matchups didn't matter, or something to that effect, you couldn't be further from the truth. There's nothing that a player like Chris Paul likes more than to be out on the perimiter being guarded by Chris Kaman. Thats like shooting fish in a barrel for Paul.
So here's the bottom line. There aren't that many low post centers worth their salt in todays NBA. If your lucky enough to have one, then praise be to god. If you look around the league, especially the finals, you saw two teams with size down low. When Perkins got injured I knew the series was over. Thats how important he was to the Celts. They may have lost anyway, but it was a given as far as I was concerned the minute he left the game. So you don't take a player, who could be an absolute impact player in the post, and stick him out on the perimiter.
Chupacabra
Starter
Cousins is a center. Cousins is not a power forward. Shut it.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Why is that people say "I'm not going to quibble" and then proceed to spend a full paragraph quibbling? I don't get it.
Entity
Hall of Famer
The answer is neither. guys like Cousins and Dalembert are not designed to guard quicker more athletic guys. Don't matter if they are bolders or not. Put Shaq on Nate Robinson on the perimeter and Nate gets to the hoop time and time again. Thats why your PF's are Thompson, Landry, and Greene to an extent to guard the quicker PF's
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I think you are over-reacting.
Let us be clear here: Nobody is saying Cousins is not our Center of the future. He clearly is the ideal center ( and not a power forward ) and we all know he got drafted for that reason. We are just discussing the possibility of Cousins playing power forward "if" he has to. Flexibility mi amigo. Flexibility. And you said it yourself, there might be occasions that Dalembert and Cousins might end up being on the floor at the same time.
I think this is similar to the debate "Evans should be playing point guard" for this team. But is that the reality that we get all the time? Of course not. And we've seen that there were clear occasions that Evans played as our shooting guard. Flexibility.
We're not that old yet to embrace FLEXIBILITY, are we?
Now, maybe the more appropriate question ( especially for those people who loves labelling players according to their position ) should be:
Who plays C and PF "if" that time comes that Westphal needs to put Cousins and Dalembert in a game at the same time?
I think The Hammer already gave a very smart answer to that question, but you can add your input as well.
I can see you omitted Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard, and Al Jefferson. Those three have played power forward at times with centers Bynum, Gortat, and Milicic.
This is a very smart analysis of how Westphal can use Dalembert and Cousins at the same time. Very unorthodox, but hey it is not always the traditional thing or "old ways" that work everytime. Maybe there is no harm in trying this once in a while.
Maybe Cousins plays the center position and Dalembert plays the power forward who will chase those so-called quicker power forwards that the slower Cousins can't guard.
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IMO, I think a lot are embracing the word "flexibility" now in the NBA. The current NBA Champions know it can work pretty well.
lol.......so true.
But in fairness to Bajaden, it is not only him who does that. I myself and a lot of posters do that too once in a while. I guess in frustration or whatever. Let us just enjoy each others imperfections in this board.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Why are people assuming Dalembert cannot guard 4s? He's long, quick and athletic. At the minimum he'll do as good a job as Thompson or Landry would, with a very good chance of doing better. Look at the starting PFs in the league, who exactly would you rather have Thompson/Landry checking over Dalembert?
J. Smith
K. Garnett
B. Diaw
T. Gibson
A. Jamison
D. Nowitzki
K. Martin
A. Tolliver
L. Scola
T. Murphy
D. Gooden
P. Gasol
Z. Randolph
M. Beasley
K. Thomas
A. Jefferson
Y. Jianlian
D. West
D. Lee
J. Green
R. Lewis
E. Brand
A. Stoudemire
L. Aldridge
T. Duncan
C. Bosh
C. Boozer
A. Blatche
Maybe the ones in bold, but thats about all I can think of.
J. Smith
K. Garnett
B. Diaw
T. Gibson
A. Jamison
D. Nowitzki
K. Martin
A. Tolliver
L. Scola
T. Murphy
D. Gooden
P. Gasol
Z. Randolph
M. Beasley
K. Thomas
A. Jefferson
Y. Jianlian
D. West
D. Lee
J. Green
R. Lewis
E. Brand
A. Stoudemire
L. Aldridge
T. Duncan
C. Bosh
C. Boozer
A. Blatche
Maybe the ones in bold, but thats about all I can think of.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I really don't understand why anybody is saying he CAN, at least on a night ot night basis. We pick up a 9 year veteran who has played center for all 9 of those years, and now he's a PF? I don't think so. And actually aside from what would be an uncomfortable matchup for him, the other thing is that not only is Dalembert a center, he is a shotblocking center, and the last thing you want to do is have him being dragged out to guard guys 20 feet form the hoop. His job is to lurk back, guard the opposing player closest to the hoop, and help on any penetration.
Now whether Cousins can guard PFs I don't truly opine. I think its mostly moot given all the PF options we have, but who knows.
Now whether Cousins can guard PFs I don't truly opine. I think its mostly moot given all the PF options we have, but who knows.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
I really don't understand why we're so intent on ignoring the four PFs that we have now. If we have frontcourt depth, we may as well use it instead of trying to spread our 5s out to the 4 spot for some unknown reason.
Chupacabra
Starter
I think the real question is.....can Cousins play spot minutes as a true point guard?! While playing Cousins at true point guard would we be able to slide Tyreke over to true center?? Something to think about.
The Hammer
All-Star
Are you honestly telling me that Sammy could not guard Gasol? Duncan? Amare? Boozer? Are you kidding?? He's quick enough! Of course he played center for nine years, but those teams didn't have the incredible depth we have which gives up OPTIONS to GO BIG. If said bigs are mobile enough.... you've got to at least look at it. To dismiss it on principle, which is what you've argued, don't make no sense. You've got to look at what we have. I agree that on paper and in principle you don't put slower guys on quicker guys. Duh. But a) sammy is quick and b) there's another monster back there protecting the rim should anyone get by him. Nobody is bagging our PFs but when you've got this much size (and mobile size to say the least), you can do things, very interesting, game changing things.
Same thing goes for Whiteside. Oh jeez he's a center so he could never play with Cousins in the same lineup. Are you effing kidding me!?? He's a monster-- and mobile! I don't care what you call the positions-- you just put the quicker of the two (4/5--be it Sammy, Whiteside, or Cousins) on the quicker of the them (4/5). And you still have a mobile shot blocking big back there protecting the hoop! We would have a game changing defensive line up. And what do you sacrafice? Ok maybe you sag off a Boozer and let him have a semi contested 20 ft jump shot. Fine. You can have that all day. But nobody is getting to the rim.
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Megalodon
Bench
PG - Cousins
SG - Whiteside
SF - Greene
PF - Thompson
C - Dalembert
Can you say size?
I'm sure Westphal will experiment with quite a few different things. But for all the talk about whether they could or could not play together, I still haven't heard a reason why it would be advantageous to do so.
What does having Dalembert and Cousins on the floor together do that would make it desirable to pair them up?
They'd likely be dominant on the glass. Presumably they are the team's two best rebounders. But outside of that? On defense you'd either have Cousins chasing guys that are likely much faster than him or Dalembert being pulled farther from the hoop. And their offensive games don't really mesh either.
In that regard I think Landry compliments Dalembert and Thompson compliments Cousins much more than Dalembert and Cousins do with one another.
Not to mention Cousins played less than 24 minutes at Kentucky (in less than half as many games as he'll play next year) and Dalembert (though he grumbled about it) played 25 or so mpg last season. Throw in the games missed due to injury and there are already plenty of minutes at center without needing to pair them up.
What does having Dalembert and Cousins on the floor together do that would make it desirable to pair them up?
They'd likely be dominant on the glass. Presumably they are the team's two best rebounders. But outside of that? On defense you'd either have Cousins chasing guys that are likely much faster than him or Dalembert being pulled farther from the hoop. And their offensive games don't really mesh either.
In that regard I think Landry compliments Dalembert and Thompson compliments Cousins much more than Dalembert and Cousins do with one another.
Not to mention Cousins played less than 24 minutes at Kentucky (in less than half as many games as he'll play next year) and Dalembert (though he grumbled about it) played 25 or so mpg last season. Throw in the games missed due to injury and there are already plenty of minutes at center without needing to pair them up.
Boozer (and mostly every other quality power forward in the NBA) is money from 20 feet. You can't sag off anyone these days. And if you're gonna close out and defend the jumper, you can't let them go by you. Amare, Pau, Bosh, Dirk, Boozer, Aldridge, and the like can all put the ball on the floor and go by Dalembert. I don't see anything wrong with playing Sam and DMC together for stretches, particularly against teams that don't have skilled big men, but if you take Dalembert and put him 20 feet away from the basket, you might as well not have him on the floor. His specialty is blocking shots; let him stay near the rim.
With Landry and Thompson in the lineup, there's no reason to put Sam or DMC on a quicker power forward.
NME
Starter
The Kings already project Whiteside as more of a PF.
The Hammer
All-Star
Exactly. An extremely long, mobile, insane shot blocking PF with a good shot. But mostly I think they are going to put him primarily at PF because he's not quite the post player that DMC is, and I think they see those two as our frontline of the future. Damn straight he would make a good Center on another team say that didn't have the most skilled center prospect in the last 15 years.
I do think people need to temper their enthusiasm for Whiteside. There's a reason he fell all the way into the 2nd round. For all the frustration people have with Thompson (who was a lottery pick remember) and his lapses I think Whiteside will have people throwing things at their TV at times. He has amazing length and above average athleticism but he has a very low basketball IQ.
He is absolutely a project and anything he gives the team this year will be a bonus. If he can capitalize on his potential then the Kings may have something, but that's a long way from happening at this point.
He is absolutely a project and anything he gives the team this year will be a bonus. If he can capitalize on his potential then the Kings may have something, but that's a long way from happening at this point.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I'm not sure where this Dalembert = quick thing got started, but its really a mistaken impression. He's a good athlete for a center, but he still moves like one. He's not fluid.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
If I was quibbling I would have had more to say. Now your quibbling over my non-quibbling paragraph, which has less to quibble about than the subject I didn't quibble about, in my non-quibbling paragraph. What the hell was I talking about? Well, whatever it was, I'm not going to quibble about it.
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