DeAaron Fox

KingsFanSince85 said:
Really? How do you explain John Wall then? His shooting numbers were worse than Fox even as the heralded #1 overall pick back in '10-'11.

Wall has improved during his 8 year career, for sure, but still isn't known as much of a shooter -- especially during his first 3 seasons -- but still finds a way to be an effective player (5x all-star).

You can have whatever opinion you'd like regarding De'Aaron's future development. But there is certainly precedent for players with Fox's size/speed/skillset having success w/o an outside shot. Wall is just one example and a good one since that is the player Fox seems to be compared to most. Because of this, I find your opinion a bit hasty and shortsighted.

And before anybody hits me with Wall being 'thicker and stronger' than Fox -- please remember that Wall came into the league under 200 lbs and not drastically larger than De'Aaron.
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I don't know if I would call a 25+ pound differential not drastic....

http://www.nbadraft.net/2010-nba-draft-combine-official-measurements

http://www.nbadraft.net/2017-nba-draft-combine-measurements
 
Suicide King said:
This goes for our other very young prospects like Giles and Bagley as well....

If you are pretending you can speak with definity about the career arc of 19/20 year old supreme athletes, you are a Troll. Period.

It sullies this awesome board TBH.

Your point may turn out to be valid. However, if one of our kids is 6-8 years from their prime, and you make sweeping judgments about this young man's career as though you are this soothsayer or prophet , and expect the thousands of other people who log on to this site to agree with a very premature ( by many many years) prediction about these kids future.

I do not mean to pick on you.

You have a valid point.....

The truth is, none of us know a thing about what we might see next season, and then the next......

I hope he has worked on his 3pt shot as well as his playmaking ability.

I have a lot of faith in Fox.

Again, not picking on you in particular. I think the the general malaise that has permeated this site has gotten to me.
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He never predicted the arc of Fox’s career. He said:

1) if Fox doesn’t have an outside shot he will be shut down. This point is true for all players who rely on their drive without a shot, Fox included.

2) Fox did not shot well this summer. The kid shot 1 for 6 from 3 which is not shooting well from deep.

Attacking a poster for making a completely factual statement is inappropriate. Fox is not highly regarded around the league at the moment because he makes poor decisions and he is a one dimensional offensive player.

It’s amazing to me... in the real world I’m considered irrationally optimistic about the Kings but on this board I’m negative Nancy. I get you want to remain hopeful but let’s not extrapolate true statements to something they are not.
 
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Chupacabra said:
I predict Fox will win the most improved player award. I think he is primed for a breakout season. All he needed was a little bit of muscle and the ball in his hands more often. Both are going to happen this year.
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Do 2nd or 3rd year players ever win the most improved award? Seems it is often reserved for a guy whose been around a few years then has a breakout that would not be expected developmentally
 
I would love if Fox turned into a version of AI. That would be great. I know that would be too much to ask. But still..
 
Somebody’s said:
Fox is the best player we have hands down w or w/o a jump shot. Up to vlade to put shooters around him if need be
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Fox has one of the highest ceilings from the players on the roster. There's a difference between having potential and being good. Right now Bogi and Buddy are far and away the best basketball players on the team.
 
A subplot is not just Fox’s ability to shoot but also, the ability to space the court around him. Clearly Buddy can help and it seems like Bogdan will play more 3 to open up the court. Whether they can effectively space the court with high impact nba regulars (as opposed to playing specialists more suited to small roles on a good team / guys clearly out of position except for offense) is going to go a long way determining whether they struggle at one end or the other

I think the commitment to play fast is about giving Fox and to a lesser degree Bagley chances to excel and make plays in the open court. Seeking space in transition because it often will not be available in the half court. I think it helps their development more than unlocking wins. Good NBA teams play faster but they are also exactingly efficienct with the ball. I think there will be a lot of possessions where the Kings run glorious fast breaks and more where they turn the ball over without a shot attempt.
 
sactowndog said:
1) if Fox doesn’t have an outside shot he will be shut down. This point is true for all players who rely on their drive without a shot, Fox included.
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No, it's not. See John Wall.

While not as effective w/o consistent jump shot, Wall was not shut down early in his career despite not having one. Fox is a similar type player with similar speed and quickness. He can find ways to be effective until his shot comes around.
 
KingsFanSince85 said:
No, it's not. See John Wall.

While not as effective w/o consistent jump shot, Wall was not shut down early in his career despite not having one. Fox is a similar type player with similar speed and quickness. He can find ways to be effective until his shot comes around.
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John wall had double the assists and was actually a threat to kick the ball out to open shooters. Fox can’t shoot nor can he find open shooters. Those deficiencies make him a one diminsional and easily contained point guard.
 
I was more frustrated with the way Fox was used for 3/4 of last season.
Bring the ball up court then pass to ZBO or another person like him then remove all sense of ball movement from the play.
I saw glimpses of the way he was used at the end of some games to take the winning shot, he was able to create his own shot and that’s how he should be used every night as it will do amazing things when he starts to kick some of those balls out to a open shooter.
He can not be guarded one on one most plays so someone will be wide open after a pass or two.
 
sactowndog said:
John wall had double the assists and was actually a threat to kick the ball out to open shooters. Fox can’t shoot nor can he find open shooters. Those deficiencies make him a one diminsional and easily contained point guard.
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I like ya, bro .. but you have absolutely no idea what De'Aaron Fox can and cannot do. None of us do. He's played one freaking season. Relax and go easy with the absolute statements already. Let's see how the kid develops. Long ways to go.

Besides, you're moving the goalposts now anyway. The point was about not having a jumpshot but still being effective. Fox might have more assists if anybody on his team could shoot or score consistently -- or run with him.
 
KingsFanSince85 said:
I like ya, bro .. but you have absolutely no idea what De'Aaron Fox can and cannot do. None of us do. He's played one freaking season. Relax and go easy with the absolute statements already. Let's see how the kid develops. Long ways to go.

Besides, you're moving the goalposts now anyway. The point was about not having a jumpshot but still being effective. Fox might have more assists if anybody on his team could shoot or score consistently -- or run with him.
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I agree that Fox might improve. Although the Wall comparison was rookie year to rookie year. But the Kings problems generally are not their shooters. It's getting the ball to their open shooters.

However the Fox can't be guarded takes are also over the top. He would be much harder to defend this coming year if he was either more of a threat to shoot from the perimeter (like a 2 guard) or more of a threat to dish the ball to open shooters (like a point guard). Perhaps he will add one or the other but right now he is certainly not un-guardable. I hope he adds the point skills unless he and Bogdan will switch roles in the half court.
 
Fox shot the ball well in college. He needs to build his shooting confidence with repitition.
The modern NBA is full of talented really large humans. Crash the paint today and people get knocked on their butts all the time. Sometimes they get fouled really hard and it happens many times a game. The season is long and all of that flying around is hard on people physically. Fox seems to get hurt a lot but I can see why. Some people are more durable than others. It is not about his slight frame, it is about getting knocked around.
 
Fox needs to learn to pass....

Just to hammer home a point. Note the Kings shooting percentages when Fox is on the floor.
Bogdan left corner 3: 75%
Buddy Right corner 3: 63.6%

As the point guard don’t you think Fox should make sure they get more than .5 attempts a game combined from those spots? Instead Fox forces contested 2’s.

Fox data on shots in the paint (non restricted area)
Fox shots in the paint (non RA): 2.5 attempts
Percentage on those shots: 34.2%

Heck even in the restricted area
Fox has 3 attempts a game at 59.9%

So in total Fox takes 5.5 attempts a game when his foot hits the paint while his top shooters get .5 attempts from their favorite spots.

You wonder why the Kings are bad... because Fox is focused on his own scoring versus winning. Let’s hope it changes this coming year.
 
As I mentioned in a prior thread on Fox, gaining strength and weight should be his most utmost priority this offseason, as this will open up the game for him in a multitude of areas while simultaneously addressing his major weaknesses displayed in year 1. Adding this strength will have a trickle-down effect into other areas of weakness: attacking the paint vs. settling for low % midrange jumpers/floaters, better rebounding %, stronger defense and net effect of spacing/better decision making/team play due to increased dynamism of his game. My bold argument is this: the jumpshot development should be a secondary offseason priority to adding strength/weight, but an extremely close second. Here's why:
  • The midrange problem: Last season, he took more midrange shots than 91% of the PGs in the league but was in the bottom 3rd (28%) in accuracy. He should be going into the paint more. But only 33% of his shots are taken in the paint (was 55% in college) as his lack of strength prevents him from getting to the basket...thus he settles for jumpers when knocked off his path and avoids contact/settles for floaters/jumpers when he can't use his speed to find an angle into the paint, as his lack of strength currently will not allow him to muscle through defenders.
  • Rebounding: he's in the bottom 3rd of all PGs in both offensive and defensive rebounding. It's not like someone is stealing rebounds from him, this was a poor rebounding team! He possesses great athleticism, leaping ability and motor - all key for rebounding - but is missing the strength to fight for rebounds, and sometimes tends to avoid the fight at times because of this.
  • Defense: he's got the tools and the motor, and the IQ will come in time. But, 170lbs < 190lbs (the latter being the average for incoming PGs to the league), and Fox can not physically contain stronger and heavier PGs yet alone any switches. His steal rate was average, he fouled often (typical for a high motor rookie), but his ability to stop will continue to be negated by his lack of weight and strength moving forward.
  • Side benefit -Durability: for those of you who've watched this league for a long time, you might notice a trend of skinny guys (not named KD) being more susceptible to injury, shortening careers and/or stalling development. While not always a direct correlation, the fact is, with less padding, you're more susceptible to wear and tear and contact injury (same also goes if you're out of shape but big, too). This isn't my strongest area of argument, but I have seen a rough correlation of skinny guys flatlining earlier in their careers due to susceptibility to injuries.
  • Aggregate effect of added strength: with Fox's +15-20 lbs of good weight & strength, this will allow him to better replicate the player he was in college with his ability to get into the paint (and finish) vs. settling for low % midrange jumpers, rebound with tenacity and defend well, allowing his game of quickness and intensity to better translate to the NBA.
    • regaining a clearly defined and efficient scoring skill through strength will address his year one deficiencies allowing him to increase efficiency and clearing the path for him to work more on his jumper around a well-defined core set of penetration/transition/drive and kick skill set.
This does not address his poor assist % and high turnover % but with added strength and versatility, he could find himself in less pressurized situations allowing for better decision making. The issue with Fox is he's always been a combo guard, so we can't expect him to be a 2.5/1 A/TO passer anytime soon, barring some freak D'Antoni offensive systems that creates mismatches allowing for inflating such pass-first statistics.

Again, my argument that added strength & weight will be key in transitioning Fox from a fringe rotational player (in terms of <12 PER efficiency) towards and average player (15 PER) in year two, helping us win a few more games in what is looking like a couple of dark, bleak years ahead.
 
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sactowndog said:
Fox needs to learn to pass....

Just to hammer home a point. Note the Kings shooting percentages when Fox is on the floor.
Bogdan left corner 3: 75%
Buddy Right corner 3: 63.6%

As the point guard don’t you think Fox should make sure they get more than .5 attempts a game combined from those spots? Instead Fox forces contested 2’s.

Fox data on shots in the paint (non restricted area)
Fox shots in the paint (non RA): 2.5 attempts
Percentage on those shots: 34.2%

Heck even in the restricted area
Fox has 3 attempts a game at 59.9%

So in total Fox takes 5.5 attempts a game when his foot hits the paint while his top shooters get .5 attempts from their favorite spots.

You wonder why the Kings are bad... because Fox is focused on his own scoring versus winning. Let’s hope it changes this coming year.
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I don't think anyone will ever accuse Fox of being pass first. He's probably going to be a scoring point for his career.

But Fox is smart and self aware. I think we're going to see his passing improve in the coming season, as well as his awareness of open shooters on the perimeter.

If we don't see improvement? It's going to make Vlade's decision to double down on a kid who looked very iffy as a rookie (I'm referring to his passing on Luka, to keep the ball in Fox's hands) look pretty suspect (assuming Luka even looks good in the NBA, of course).

I'm optimistic though! There was a definite "Fox effect" in that one summer league game he played. The bigs looked better with him on the court, that's a start!
 
gunks said:
I don't think anyone will ever accuse Fox of being pass first. He's probably going to be a scoring point for his career.

But Fox is smart and self aware. I think we're going to see his passing improve in the coming season, as well as his awareness of open shooters on the perimeter.

If we don't see improvement? It's going to make Vlade's decision to double down on a kid who looked very iffy as a rookie (I'm referring to his passing on Luka, to keep the ball in Fox's hands) look pretty suspect (assuming Luka even looks good in the NBA, of course).

I'm optimistic though! There was a definite "Fox effect" in that one summer league game he played. The bigs looked better with him on the court, that's a start!
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I agree on the bolded part. Fox in his comments is also strongly motivated by glory. That’s not a bad thing. It drives him to take and make the shot in pressure situations. Hopefully he figures out glory can come from playing team ball like Steph Curry and Tony Parker and not from pursuing individual stats like Westbrook and Lillard.
 
gunks said:
I don't think anyone will ever accuse Fox of being pass first. He's probably going to be a scoring point for his career.

But Fox is smart and self aware. I think we're going to see his passing improve in the coming season, as well as his awareness of open shooters on the perimeter.

If we don't see improvement? It's going to make Vlade's decision to double down on a kid who looked very iffy as a rookie (I'm referring to his passing on Luka, to keep the ball in Fox's hands) look pretty suspect (assuming Luka even looks good in the NBA, of course).

I'm optimistic though! There was a definite "Fox effect" in that one summer league game he played. The bigs looked better with him on the court, that's a start!
Click to expand...

It’s going to make Vlade’s decision to pass on players like Markennan, Smith and Mitchell even more suspect. Heck even Nitikina might start to look like a better pick than Fox.
 
Ozymandias said:
I love threads like this, exposes these hyper-instant-gratification-seeking types
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Yup, the posters like yourself tend to be right over the long haul. The projections of most rookies from Hawes to Pappa G were spot on by most
 
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Ozymandias said:
You don't like de'aaron fox? I'd highly suggest rooting for another team... he's gonna be on this squad for a long time.
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No one is looking for instant gratification. No one has said bench him this year. Everyone hopes he plays better. Having a discussion on where he must improve for this team to be a good team would seem to be the point of this board. Most everyone has been pretty factual in their assessment.
 
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sactowndog said:
No one is looking for instant gratification. No one has said bench him this year. Everyone hopes he plays better. Having a discussion on where he must improve for this team to be a good team would seem to be the point of this board. Most everyone has been pretty factual in their assessment.
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But Giles (I’m a fan, but unproven and his health may always be at issue and he’s not close to the asset De’Aaron is going forward at this point)!

Fox is clearly the franchises most important piece, so even though I understand the concerns about his rookie year, his upside is strong and when he played like he did the first few weeks of the season he ‘can’ get to be a franchise type. But seeing the floor/playmaking might not ever be his strong suit, but playmaking might need to be put around him

But he’s clear number 1 in upside for the team and it’s hopes, as of today
 
Kingster said:
Good point. There are a lot of thin players who had long careers. Also, from what little I saw in the summer league, Fox is going to be a much stronger Fox than last year!
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The one thing that most of the successful thin players had in common was the ability to shoot the ball. Kevin Martin who was mentioned developed into a deadly shooter. Jamal Crawford, a deadly shooter. Not written in stone of course, but my point is that if and when Fox masters his jumpshot, he'll take his game to the next level and be almost unguardable. Right now most teams are playing off if him because of his speed, and because they don't think he can consistently hit that outside shot.

Personally, at the moment I'm not too worried about it. Apparently the Kings brain trust didn't put too much emphasis on it last season, instead wanting him to focus, and learn the nuances of being a PG in the NBA. Also, I wouldn't lend too much credibility to how he shot the three in summer league. He didn't have a lot of time between the end of the season and summer league to get much work in. However, I do expect to see some improvement in the coming season.

I wouldn't say that I expect this to be a breakout season for Fox, but it is a season where I expect him to take his game up a notch or two. Many people preferred Dennis Smith to Fox in the draft, but when you compare their end of year stats, they were fairly even. Smith scored more points, but he played more minutes and took 4 more shots per game than Fox. There was only six tenth's of a percentage point difference between them when it came to three point percentage. In other words, both had a fairly typical rookie PG season.

Long term, I think I'll stick with Fox. I think there's more potential there, and he appears to be a very hard worker. Potential and hard work usually equal a very good basketball player.
 
nebs said:
Off Topic. Holy crap Boogie 16.4% Body fat lmao
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Well, it is a bit hard to do your regular workouts when you suffer the injury he did. He's a big dude to begin with, and Boogie has always had to work hard to stay in shape.
 
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