Darren Collison

[Kingster]

I love the idea of IT as a super sixth man. But if the plan is to have a much less ball dominant PG and much more ball movement then the team is better off with McCallum and Collison even though Thomas is more talented than both.

The conclusion from the consensus that Thomas is the more talented point guard is based on observation. The conclusion that more ball movement is going to be generated because of his absence is based on speculation, and weak speculation at that. When Thomas was out with injury last year, I didn't see the SA Spurs out there. I saw the same lousy ball movement. And when Thomas was on the court and threw the one-pass of the offense into Cousins and Gay, I didn't see ball movement. I saw one-shot ISO. The "less is more" theory seems to be wishful thinking. I will say, however, that without Thomas, it will be absolutely necessary that Malone change the offense to more ball movement. By losing Thomas, the Kings will lose their best penetrator. Everybody else is mediocre in comparison. If Malone doesn't radically change the offense to substitute more passing/ball movement for the lost penetration threat of Thomas, they are in deep trouble.

 

[funkykingston]

The conclusion from the consensus that Thomas is the more talented point guard is based on observation. The conclusion that more ball movement is going to be generated because of his absence is based on speculation, and weak speculation at that. When Thomas was out with injury last year, I didn't see the SA Spurs out there. I saw the same lousy ball movement. And when Thomas was on the court and threw the one-pass of the offense into Cousins and Gay, I didn't see ball movement. I saw one-shot ISO. The "less is more" theory seems to be wishful thinking. I will say, however, that without Thomas, it will be absolutely necessary that Malone change the offense to more ball movement. By losing Thomas, the Kings will lose their best penetrator. Everybody else is mediocre in comparison. If Malone doesn't radically change the offense to substitute more passing/ball movement for the lost penetration threat of Thomas, they are in deep trouble.

It's never been fair to pin the Kings offensive woes and lack of ball movement on Isaiah Thomas. Is he part of the problem? Sure, as the point guard he has to be. But Rudy Gay is a ball stopper as well. And DMC can be too if he feels he's not getting enough looks. Same with Jason Thompson who was publicly complaining about the number of touches he got. For that matter, McLemore's ineffectiveness as a shooter AND his struggles handling the ball made him part of the poor ball movement as well. And Mike Malone has to take the blame for the ISO heavy, non-motion offense as well. Maybe even the lion's share of the blame.

I was frustrated with the Stauskas pick and was initially certain that Philly picked Payton to trade with the Kings for Stauskas. And now it sounds like that trade was a real option but the Kings turned it down which frustrated me. Payton as the pass first PG and defensive disrupter and IT as the scoring PG seemed like a winning platoon to me. But now I've come around a bit to the idea of Stauskas as his ball handling and passing will hopefully contribute to much more ball movement. And hopefully more moves are made that add to that. Because passing is contagious just as selfishness with the ball is contagious.

Thomas is being scapegoated a bit here, sure. The reality I think is that the Kings expected a stronger market for Thomas and didn't necessarily expect to match. Because once Gay opted in matching on IT meant they'd essentially be bringing back the same exact roster that won 28 games and being in luxury tax territory just to do it. Personally I'm not high on Collison. And it's starting to look like IT might be more affordable than first predicted.

But it's starting to look to me like the team was looking for change for the sake of change. Because if they really wanted IT back as a sixth man, they should have signed a different type of player to be a starter than Collison. One who was ideally bigger and more defensive minded. Which is why I started liking the idea of Smart or Payton in the draft. Collison isn't Jason Kidd or John Stockton or Steve Nash. He's not an offensive maestro who orchestrates an offense with the ball in his hands. So the Kings have to hope he's Mike Bibby lite with less shooting skill but better on defense. A PG who is more willing to bring the ball up across mid court and then make the entry pass to start the offense.

Which is of course presuming that the rest of the Kings get on board with moving the ball more. And presuming that Malone can design and implement such an offense.

We'll see.

 

[mac]

It's never been fair to pin the Kings offensive woes and lack of ball movement on Isaiah Thomas. Is he part of the problem? Sure, as the point guard he has to be. But Rudy Gay is a ball stopper as well. And DMC can be too if he feels he's not getting enough looks. Same with Jason Thompson who was publicly complaining about the number of touches he got. For that matter, McLemore's ineffectiveness as a shooter AND his struggles handling the ball made him part of the poor ball movement as well. And Mike Malone has to take the blame for the ISO heavy, non-motion offense as well. Maybe even the lion's share of the blame.

I was frustrated with the Stauskas pick and was initially certain that Philly picked Payton to trade with the Kings for Stauskas. And now it sounds like that trade was a real option but the Kings turned it down which frustrated me. Payton as the pass first PG and defensive disrupter and IT as the scoring PG seemed like a winning platoon to me. But now I've come around a bit to the idea of Stauskas as his ball handling and passing will hopefully contribute to much more ball movement. And hopefully more moves are made that add to that. Because passing is contagious just as selfishness with the ball is contagious.

Thomas is being scapegoated a bit here, sure. The reality I think is that the Kings expected a stronger market for Thomas and didn't necessarily expect to match. Because once Gay opted in matching on IT meant they'd essentially be bringing back the same exact roster that won 28 games and being in luxury tax territory just to do it. Personally I'm not high on Collison. And it's starting to look like IT might be more affordable than first predicted.

But it's starting to look to me like the team was looking for change for the sake of change. Because if they really wanted IT back as a sixth man, they should have signed a different type of player to be a starter than Collison. One who was ideally bigger and more defensive minded. Which is why I started liking the idea of Smart or Payton in the draft. Collison isn't Jason Kidd or John Stockton or Steve Nash. He's not an offensive maestro who orchestrates an offense with the ball in his hands. So the Kings have to hope he's Mike Bibby lite with less shooting skill but better on defense. A PG who is more willing to bring the ball up across mid court and then make the entry pass to start the offense.

Which is of course presuming that the rest of the Kings get on board with moving the ball more. And presuming that Malone can design and implement such an offense.

We'll see.

Who exactly could they have gone after given our cap situation? We got Collison on a very reasonable deal IMO .. there weren't that many other options out there that we could have honestly attracted.

 

[Entity]

Cousins is supposed to be a ball stopper. you don't have Demarcus Cousins on your team to be a ball movement guy. he is there to dominate and score in the post. he still averages over 3 ast a game. Hakeem wasn't there to move the ball. i cringe every time i see somebody mention demarcus as a ball stopper.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Who exactly could they have gone after given our cap situation? We got Collison on a very reasonable deal IMO .. there weren't that many other options out there that we could have honestly attracted.

That is the real question. The odds of Elfrid Payton turning into a more valuable player than Collison for this team in the next 2-3 years are very slim. There's also no 1st ballot hall of famers that we can get.

What's the next available move? Exactly what we have now. A solid pro in Collison who isn't overpaid and an up and coming young player in McCallum

 

[funkykingston]

Who exactly could they have gone after given our cap situation? We got Collison on a very reasonable deal IMO .. there weren't that many other options out there that we could have honestly attracted.

Yeah, the current front office created a cap situation that meant little money to spend in free agency making our only options to (1) draft a PG in Payton or Smart and hope they become the solution (2) sign a low cost alternative ala Collison or the like and/or (3) resign Isaiah Thomas.

Limited options for sure but I suppose the real issue is whether Collison is an upgrade over Thomas. As an individual talent it's pretty hard to argue that he is. As far as how he effects the rest of the team we'll just have to wait and see. I think he was signed as a cheaper option but so far nobody's offered IT a ton of cash so he may or may not represent a significant cost savings. And given the Kings situation that's the comparison that will end up being made. Was it a better idea to sign Collison than resign IT? And I don't really know the answer to that right now.

Of course if the team matches the offer IT gets then it really muddles things and makes the Collison signing a real head scratcher.

Cousins is supposed to be a ball stopper. you don't have Demarcus Cousins on your team to be a ball movement guy. he is there to dominate and score in the post. he still averages over 3 ast a game. Hakeem wasn't there to move the ball. i cringe every time i see somebody mention demarcus as a ball stopper.

Yes and no. Webber was a ball stopper when the team needed him to score but most of the time he facilitated the offense as well as anyone else. Boogie can do both. In fact I'd argue that him being able to find cutters, pass out of double or triple teams to open shooters and generally be a bigger offensive threat due to his passing will only help him as a dominant offensive big. And that's always been Cousins' game. He's the most versatile true big I've ever watched.

 

[pshn80]

Cousins is supposed to be a ball stopper. you don't have Demarcus Cousins on your team to be a ball movement guy. he is there to dominate and score in the post. he still averages over 3 ast a game. Hakeem wasn't there to move the ball. i cringe every time i see somebody mention demarcus as a ball stopper.

But he has been too often and it has been part of a big problem. The biggest part of the problem was Ben last year, and then you have IT, Gay and Cuz. So the whole thing has to change.

 

[Padrino]

The conclusion from the consensus that Thomas is the more talented point guard is based on observation. The conclusion that more ball movement is going to be generated because of his absence is based on speculation, and weak speculation at that. When Thomas was out with injury last year, I didn't see the SA Spurs out there. I saw the same lousy ball movement. And when Thomas was on the court and threw the one-pass of the offense into Cousins and Gay, I didn't see ball movement. I saw one-shot ISO. The "less is more" theory seems to be wishful thinking. I will say, however, that without Thomas, it will be absolutely necessary that Malone change the offense to more ball movement. By losing Thomas, the Kings will lose their best penetrator. Everybody else is mediocre in comparison. If Malone doesn't radically change the offense to substitute more passing/ball movement for the lost penetration threat of Thomas, they are in deep trouble.

there seems to be a disconnect amongst kings fans as to what constitutes useful ball movement. at this point, the san antonio spurs are just becoming an unfortunate burden-by-comparison after their nba finals victory. no team in the nba will achieve the systemic excellence of the spurs, nor do most teams need to function as the spurs do. their aging stars cannot effectively dominate as they once did, offensively speaking, which is why popovich deemed it necessary to reconfigure his offensive approach to accommodate that decline. the kings' offensive hierarchy does not demand a similar approach...

beyond that, the term "ISO" gets tossed around these parts pejoratively. however, great isolation players still rule the nba landscape. more to the point, the kings have the single most talented offensive big in the entire league; the nba hasn't drifted away from dominant low-post basketball towards a more perimeter-oriented style of play just for the hell of it; the nba has drifted away from dominant low-post basketball because of a dearth of dominant low-post bigs. but if you have one, you use him in that capacity, or you're just wasting his talent. demarcus cousins getting good looks at the rim should always be the first option...

do i think the kings' offense is far too predictable, lazy, and lacking in creativity? absolutely. but the answer isn't to attempt to fit certain kinds of players to an incompatible system. more often than not, the answer is simply to execute better, and to create easier opportunities to score. for example, it'd be nice to see the kings initiate a few pick and rolls next season where the ballhandler doesn't finish the play for himself. it'd also be nice if the kings' 3-point shooters actually constituted a legitimate offensive threat. hopefully nik stauskas lives up to the hype, because demarcus desperately needs options out of the double-team...

stauskas' unselfish reputation as a playmaker who knows how to deliver the simple pass should also help matters. removing a ball dominant scoring PG from the starting unit should help matters, as well. it's not about what happened last season when isaiah thomas came out of the game, with nary a guard available to replace him as the primary ballhandler. it's about how the team will adapt next season to an offensive approach that is no longer reliant on three starters fighting over the same ball, but rather an offensive approach that requires more of its roleplayers for the sake of balance. the kings' offense doesn't need a massive overhaul to be successful. a few tweaks and an injection of creativity to loosen up the floor a bit would do wonders for this team...

 

[Albatros]

I'm getting sick of the negativity about DC on twitter, I'm not jumping for joy about the signing but you'd think we'd just signed Jimmy Kimmel to replace Michael Jordan the way people are talking about this deal.

apparently it doesn't matter that IT is a below average defender

https://twitter.com/AminESPN/status/486190893297565696

and he's also not a better passer btw!

https://twitter.com/ZachLowe_NBA/status/486185690540298241

https://twitter.com/AminESPN/status/486185859646242816

I guarantee this amount of scorn wouldn't have been poured if it was the Lakers or Heat making this deal.

 

[sdballer]

I'm getting sick of the negativity about DC on twitter, I'm not jumping for joy about the signing but you'd think we'd just signed Jimmy Kimmel to replace Michael Jordan the way people are talking about this deal.

apparently it doesn't matter that IT is a below average defender

https://twitter.com/AminESPN/status/486190893297565696

and he's also not a better passer btw!

https://twitter.com/ZachLowe_NBA/status/486185690540298241

https://twitter.com/AminESPN/status/486185859646242816

I guarantee this amount of scorn wouldn't have been poured if it was the Lakers or Heat making this deal.

And if the Kings had given IT the $8-10M he's after, they would have ripped us for the offer instead of going with a cheaper option like DC. Small markets with losing histories never win in the eyes of media that barely watch us.

 

[Kingster]

there seems to be a disconnect amongst kings fans as to what constitutes useful ball movement. at this point, the san antonio spurs are just becoming an unfortunate burden-by-comparison after their nba finals victory. no team in the nba will achieve the systemic excellence of the spurs, nor do most teams need to function as the spurs do. their aging stars cannot effectively dominate as they once did, offensively speaking, which is why popovich deemed it necessary to reconfigure his offensive approach to accommodate that decline. the kings' offensive hierarchy does not demand a similar approach...

beyond that, the term "ISO" gets tossed around these parts pejoratively. however, great isolation players still rule the nba landscape. more to the point, the kings have the single most talented offensive big in the entire league; the nba hasn't drifted away from dominant low-post basketball towards a more perimeter-oriented style of play just for the hell of it; the nba has drifted away from dominant low-post basketball because of a dearth of dominant low-post bigs. but if you have one, you use him in that capacity, or you're just wasting his talent. demarcus cousins getting good looks at the rim should always be the first option...

do i think the kings' offense is far too predictable, lazy, and lacking in creativity? absolutely. but the answer isn't to attempt to fit certain kinds of players to an incompatible system. more often than not, the answer is simply to execute better, and to create easier opportunities to score. for example, it'd be nice to see the kings initiate a few pick and rolls next season where the ballhandler doesn't finish the play for himself. it'd also be nice if the kings' 3-point shooters actually constituted a legitimate offensive threat. hopefully nik stauskas lives up to the hype, because demarcus desperately needs options out of the double-team...

stauskas' unselfish reputation as a playmaker who knows how to deliver the simple pass should also help matters. removing a ball dominant scoring PG from the starting unit should help matters, as well. it's not about what happened last season when isaiah thomas came out of the game, with nary a guard available to replace him as the primary ballhandler. it's about how the team will adapt next season to an offensive approach that is no longer reliant on three starters fighting over the same ball, but rather an offensive approach that requires more of its roleplayers for the sake of balance. the kings' offense doesn't need a massive overhaul to be successful. a few tweaks and an injection of creativity to loosen up the floor a bit would do wonders for this team...

1) If you're so burdened by the SA Spurs example, (apparently Vivek isn't) give me another one you'd like to see.

2) The Stauskas talk is getting ridiculous. The Kings' future is now largely dependent on a rookie who hasn't played one NBA game.

3) We don't have great ISO players. We might have one.

4) Great ISO players don't rule the NBA landscape; for directions, see the SA Spurs.

5) Who said we should fit certain kind of players to an incompatible system? Strawman.

6) You're stating the obvious when you say that next year is more important than last season. Last season is the basis from which to draw conclusions, the data to analyze, not speculation on next year (See Stauskas).

7) The "less is more" argument that says fewer shots from the pg should help this offense is an argument taken on faith. There's no evidence to that effect. Moreover, when there was Cousins AND Gay AND Thomas, the team won more percentage-wise (around .500) than they did with any two of the aforementioned players.

 

[Chubbs]

Does anyone have the team assists with IT and without IT handy?

 

[Padrino]

1) If you're so burdened by the SA Spurs example, (apparently Vivek isn't) give me another one you'd like to see.

2) The Stauskas talk is getting ridiculous. The Kings' future is now largely dependent on a rookie who hasn't played one NBA game.

3) We don't have great ISO players. We might have one.

4) Great ISO players don't rule the NBA landscape; for directions, see the SA Spurs.

5) Who said we should fit certain kind of players to an incompatible system? Strawman.

6) You're stating the obvious when you say that next year is more important than last season. Last season is the basis from which to draw conclusions, the data to analyze, not speculation on next year (See Stauskas).

7) The "less is more" argument that says fewer shots from the pg should help this offense is an argument taken on faith. There's no evidence to that effect. Moreover, when there was Cousins AND Gay AND Thomas, the team won more percentage-wise (around .500) than they did with any two of the aforementioned players.

1) a comparison with more realistic attainability would be the memphis grizzlies, who are middle-of-the-pack with respect to ball movement, but are a strong defensive team with an offensive system dependent upon the low post talents of zach randolph and marc gasol. and they're routinely a 50-win team who competes in the playoffs year in and year out.

2) the kings' future has been and will continue be tied to demarcus cousins. but yes, that future is also very dependent on nik stauskas achieving his potential. the kings have precious few avenues with which to upgrade their talent level. thus, their draft picks must pay off in order for the team to succeed.

3) at 23, demarcus cousins is already a great isolation player. he may become a legendary one. he's simply too big for most every player he lines up against down low. rudy gay is not a great isolation player. but in one partial season with the kings, he was a very effective one.

4) the spurs are an anomaly whose window is closing rapidly. when tim duncan retires, they will reconfigure their gameplan once again. oh, and lebron james, kevin durant, russell westbrook, james harden, carmelo anthony, etc. all send their regards.

5) i wasn't constructing a strawman. i was replying to your consistent assertion that the kings should adopt offensive strategies similar to those the san antonio spurs employ. i don't see the fit, even if vivek and co. insist on making the comparison.

6) my point was simply that the roster should look rather different at the start of next season, particularly at the guard positions, so last season's data--empty as the kings' roster was of contributors at the guard positions--will not be terribly useful in determining how to evaluate a future kings roster sans isaiah thomas in the starting lineup.

7) there's no evidence here in sacramento to that effect, but there are miles and miles of league-wide historical evidence that would refute the notion that it's a good idea to start three ball dominant 20 ppg scorers, none of whom are elite defenders or elite playmakers. it's just a poor balancing act.

 

[funkykingston]

Does anyone have the team assists with IT and without IT handy?

No, but it didn't take long to calculate.

As a team the Kings averaged 18.86 assists per game. That was the lowest average APG of the Sacramento era and second worst all time in franchise history behind the 1956-57 Rochester Royals who scored seven points less per game.

With IT as the starter for 54 games the team averaged 18.2 APG
For the 10 games IT didn't play at the end of the season the team averaged 17.5 APG
And in the 18 games that IT came off the bench behind Vasquez the team averaged 21.6 APG

Not a stark difference all around but seems to jibe with what my eyes told me. That the team shared the ball more early in the season and not as much after Vasquez's departure/Rudy Gay's arrival. And that while McCallum took care of the basketball the offense largely stagnated in the games that he started resulting in more one-on-one play.

The Kings moved the ball best when they had Vasquez starting and IT off the bench and before Gay's arrival. Obviously the stats don't tell the whole story because there are a couple different conclusions they could point to. Was it Vasquez's pass first mentality? Was it IT being more scoring focused as a PG? Was it Rudy Gay stopping ball movement? For that matter was it McLemore's inability to handle the ball and hit open shots? Hard to say for sure.

But the overall takeaway is that this Kings team did lack the shooting and playmaking that PDA has talked about.

 

[ParniValjak]

It's never been fair to pin the Kings offensive woes and lack of ball movement on Isaiah Thomas. Is he part of the problem? Sure, as the point guard he has to be. But Rudy Gay is a ball stopper as well. And DMC can be too if he feels he's not getting enough looks. Same with Jason Thompson who was publicly complaining about the number of touches he got. For that matter, McLemore's ineffectiveness as a shooter AND his struggles handling the ball made him part of the poor ball movement as well. And Mike Malone has to take the blame for the ISO heavy, non-motion offense as well. Maybe even the lion's share of the blame.

I was frustrated with the Stauskas pick and was initially certain that Philly picked Payton to trade with the Kings for Stauskas. And now it sounds like that trade was a real option but the Kings turned it down which frustrated me. Payton as the pass first PG and defensive disrupter and IT as the scoring PG seemed like a winning platoon to me. But now I've come around a bit to the idea of Stauskas as his ball handling and passing will hopefully contribute to much more ball movement. And hopefully more moves are made that add to that. Because passing is contagious just as selfishness with the ball is contagious.

Thomas is being scapegoated a bit here, sure. The reality I think is that the Kings expected a stronger market for Thomas and didn't necessarily expect to match. Because once Gay opted in matching on IT meant they'd essentially be bringing back the same exact roster that won 28 games and being in luxury tax territory just to do it. Personally I'm not high on Collison. And it's starting to look like IT might be more affordable than first predicted.

But it's starting to look to me like the team was looking for change for the sake of change. Because if they really wanted IT back as a sixth man, they should have signed a different type of player to be a starter than Collison. One who was ideally bigger and more defensive minded. Which is why I started liking the idea of Smart or Payton in the draft. Collison isn't Jason Kidd or John Stockton or Steve Nash. He's not an offensive maestro who orchestrates an offense with the ball in his hands. So the Kings have to hope he's Mike Bibby lite with less shooting skill but better on defense. A PG who is more willing to bring the ball up across mid court and then make the entry pass to start the offense.

Which is of course presuming that the rest of the Kings get on board with moving the ball more. And presuming that Malone can design and implement such an offense.

We'll see.

They tried to sign someone bigger but he decided to sign with GSW. If we are to go off what is reported, we got in contact with Shaun Livingston first. He signed with GSW and we moved on to Collison. It can still work, they just need to be a bit creative.