Darren Collison ranked 23rd best PG in the league by ESPNs Player/Coach/Excutive board.

[9x1x6]

Well we may not need an elite PG perse, but you do need an elite ball handler to make a playoff run, that's what we don't have.

Sure, chapionships might not have had an elite PG, but they all had elite ball handlers. Darren is a ok ball handler, and we struggled many a time at the start of the season feeding Boogie the ball.

I'm sure he'll make leaps and bounds in Karls system, we just need a take charge and own the 4th quarter in the clutch ball handler.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

@PoundForPound, I'm not sensitive at all; I just have no patience for spin doctors. And you either have a genuine problem understanding what you're reading, or you're obfuscating, so that you can spin other people's words to fit your narrative.

If "Darren Collison isn't good enough to be the starting PG of a team whose hope is to make it any further than the first round of the playoffs" was your one and only point, then you need to learn how to 1) read for comprehension, and 2) do a better job articulating your point. Because neither Bricklayer nor I said anything about Collison being a starting quality point guard for a contending team, and the post that you quoted, which included the sentence that you bolded, wasn't about that.

If you read a sentence that went, "Having an elite PG is just about the very LEAST important thing you can have when pursuing an NBA title," and another sentence that read, "You're right: Westbrook, Curry, Irving, Paul, Lillard and Wall have quite the impressive collection of rings, indeed," and what you got out of that was, "Oh, Bricklayer and Slim don't think we need to upgrade at point guard; they think that Collison is good enough! ", then you have problems understanding the written word, because that's not what the words we typed actually mean.

 

[lawlman91]

This argument started when you suggested that in order to have glorified success, not just making the playoffs, you needed a top pg. now that we are using facts to suggest otherwise, you appear to be confused with what you were arguing.

The facts suggest that having a top 10 pg is not necessary to have "glorified success".

Also, how do you suppose we would even acquire one of those top 10-15 PGs?

It went from

You need to have a top PG to get to playoffs -> PG is crucial to a teams' success

I agree with "PG is crucial to a teams' success", but not "you need to have a top PG to get to playoffs".

Collison can shoot and make the post entry pass. That's the bare minimum for what our point guards need to do. Luckily, Collison can also run in transition and make the mid-range pull-up. I will admit that he doesn't have the instincts of a Ricky Rubio or a Rajon Rondo (both guys have difficulty shooting), but that's not what we need right now. Our passing as of late has very likely contributed to winning, especially the passing from the PGs in Ray and Andre. Collison is perfectly capable of that sort of passing. If we were to improve the passing instincts of our PGs by trading or developing, who would they assist to? Sub-par shooters? So then we see our shiny new PG's assist numbers go down and then we're like "omg PG sux". A pure PG would be nice if the Kings could shoot marvelously. Given our current situation, we can't shoot marvelously; best case, we are respectable at shooting.

Its best to optimize. Getting an elite PG is not optimizing. We need shooters and another big man. Maybe once we get shooters, or develop shooters, then we can think about getting or developing an elite PG, which I would be against.

 

[rhythmless]

I'm only looking at this in the reality. It's great to say we need to upgrade everything. Awesome. But if it doesn't even exist in reality, what's the point?

Guys who aren't available
Westbrook
Curry
CP3 (also he's a little b, so I don't want him at all. Unless it's to ensure the demise of his face b/c DMC will definitely stomp on him one day. Sorry, tangent, but he's too good to be such a whiny pouty faced baby)
Kyrie
Damian Lillard

Guys who may be available if you give a lot, but we have no assets to trade for
John Wall
Conley
Lowry
Parker

Now, here's where we can talk about the point guards. We still don't have actual talent in order to pull of a trade for these guys, but you can conceivably make a Kings skewed trade if you also take on some bad contracts.

Teague: I'm convinced his elevated status is due to the system, guys around him, and Budenholzer (who I called for ages ago). Either way, he's a DC type but with extra scoring and speed. Yes, an upgrade, but he's going to regress with the guys we have (non shooters). At that point, why gamble on giving up assets for a guy who isn't a clear cut talent upgrade or "elite" pg.

Rose: Big contract, can't stay on the court. Definitely a gamble. If you want to advocate for this, I'd entertain the conversation. But they're not gonna blow it up now. And we also don't have the assets. Or the cap space.

Dragic: Riley > PDA/Vivek/Vivek's entourage. We aren't getting him, and if Riley agrees, I'd definitely re-evaluate the trade. Actually, I'd keep our front office clear of Riley/Pop entirely.

Bledsoe/Lawson: Full tier upgrade as a scorer, but not really a full upgrade in terms of other pg skills. And those are the pg skills you wanted, no?

Rondo: If he works out, it works out. If he doesn't, you can see how detrimental he is to a team. No spacing, he's always coasting.

Kemba: Eh

Rubio: Rondo 2.0. You're also not gonna get him with what we have available.

Jrue: This I would like, but the only upgrade he has over Collison is defense/size. Go get him if you can, but again, WE DON'T HAVE THE ASSETS.

Dwill: Old, slow, inconsistent. Upgrade some nights, too many twinkies most other nights.

Brandon Jennings: Young, fast, inconsistent. Upgrade some nights, DMC doesn't touch the ball other nights.

George Hill: Can't really shoot, game manager like Collison.

So... who do you want? Who's available, that's a full on upgrade at a price we can afford? The answer, realistically, is no one.

 

[rexb_kings]

Wow Curry at number 2! Well should be 1 if you ask me. But what bugs me was, Kings could have gotten him in the 2009 draft!

We're good we still have Collison!

 

[Bricklayer]

Wow Curry at number 2! Well should be 1 if you ask me. But what bugs me was, Kings could have gotten him in the 2009 draft!

We're good we still have Collison!

We are just fine.

Curry and Collison don't play the same position. Cousins and Curry play the same position. I'll take the big guy.

 

[9x1x6]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/1...point-guards-no-1-chris-paul-no-30-dante-exum

Darren now ranked 20th? Even though he hasn't played since ESPNs last forecast panel.

Right behind...Rajon Rondo. haha. In all honesty Darren is probably the best we are going to get veteran PG wise, Ty Lawson is negligible upgrade (if only he was a shooter and not a drive and kick).

The only way I see us getting better at the 1 is through the draft still. I think we should start looking at Jerian Grant, just named first team All- American and had a great tourny run, and probably available when we pick. This would make us have to address PF through FA though, and everyone that is high on WCS probably wouldn't want to go that way.

 

[rhythmless]

You can win with a 20th ranked PG as long as he isn't ranked 20th in the key role playing categories for a star big: 3pt shooting, entry passes, turnovers, and defense. You don't need Curry/Westbrook if you have a top big. And we do. We have a top 2 big, IMO. You can actually win a lot with a whole slew of 20th ranked players at their positions and a #1-3 guy, as long as they rank very high on the roleplaying categories. If we had 3 Battiers, DMC, and some random enforcer shotblocker, we would go very far. And I'm pretty sure Battier never hit top 10 in his position.

It's not a numbers game, guys. It's building a team. You don't make a company with 10 CEOs. You ride your star, you get guys to hide his weaknesses, and you get guys to do the dirty work so your star can shine.

 

[randymoss1881]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/1...point-guards-no-1-chris-paul-no-30-dante-exum

Darren now ranked 20th? Even though he hasn't played since ESPNs last forecast panel.

Right behind...Rajon Rondo. haha. In all honesty Darren is probably the best we are going to get veteran PG wise, Ty Lawson is negligible upgrade (if only he was a shooter and not a drive and kick).

The only way I see us getting better at the 1 is through the draft still. I think we should start looking at Jerian Grant, just named first team All- American and had a great tourny run, and probably available when we pick. This would make us have to address PF through FA though, and everyone that is high on WCS probably wouldn't want to go that way.

Any list with rondo above Collison can't be taken serious

 

[King Baller]

Many of those team comparisons fail to mention very good ball handlers at other positions. Kobe, Manu, Wade, Lebron all handle/handled the ball much of the time. Rudy is not an elite ball handler but he does a pretty good job for a high dribbler. Ben has improved but he still has to pick his spots. Nik has shown some flashes.

IMO the Kings need another player who can handle the ball well. Maybe Nik or Ben turn into that player. Collison looks a lot better at PG if the SG is a threat to handle the ball.

 

[Bricklayer]

Many of those team comparisons fail to mention very good ball handlers at other positions. Kobe, Manu, Wade, Lebron all handle/handled the ball much of the time. Rudy is not an elite ball handler but he does a pretty good job for a high dribbler. Ben has improved but he still has to pick his spots. Nik has shown some flashes.

IMO the Kings need another player who can handle the ball well. Maybe Nik or Ben turn into that player. Collison looks a lot better at PG if the SG is a threat to handle the ball.

Very much the lesson you learn looking back at the old great center teams. A few have singular wizards. The ones that don't have multiple ballhandlers who together equal the same thing. Ben doesn't have that capability. Nik might, but he's a long way off and might not be anything more than a bench talent even at his peak.

 

[PoundForPound]

Any list with rondo above Collison can't be taken serious

Are you kidding me?

You think that Collison is a better player than Rondo?

 

[sdballer]

Are you kidding me?

You think that Collison is a better player than Rondo?

At this point? Quite possibly. Maybe rondo recovers some of the skills he had pre injury but right now he has so many weaknesses that draw away from his strengths.

 

[ESP47]

Darren Collison is one of the last guys I'd be looking to replace. He's at 16ppg, 5.6 assists and very very efficient from the floor as a PG. Take that along with solid defense and there's not much to complain about there.

Lets start with one of the other 10 players not named Cousins or Gay and go from there.

 

[The_Jamal]

Are you kidding me?

You think that Collison is a better player than Rondo?

Absolutely. Rondo hasn't been good for years.

 

[PoundForPound]

Absolutely. Rondo hasn't been good for years.

Homerism at its finest. There comes a point in time, especially in sports, where analytics, statistics, whatever you want to call it, it goes out the window. I understand if you're going to compare two guys who are among the same or near the same caliber, by all means, let's talk stats. But that isn't the case here. Disregard what recent statistics may tell you, hell, DC hasn't even played and Rajon Rondo's been traded. I can't even believe we're having this discussion. I'm laughing at the idea that you're really saying DC is better than Rondo. DC's a good backup at best in this league, he doesn't deserve to be starting, but this team isn't talented enough at his position so we've got no choice. Ask any front office in this league who they'd rather have and you won't find one who will agree with your assessment. Rajon Rondo is a former all-star has won a ring has been deep into the playoffs I mean I get all the Rondo hate he's been I guess you can say detrimental to an extent in Dallas but come on now. Lol. Darren Collison Really?

 

[The_Jamal]

Homerism at its finest. There comes a point in time, especially in sports, where analytics, statistics, whatever you want to call it, it goes out the window. I understand if you're going to compare two guys who are among the same or near the same caliber, by all means, let's talk stats. But that isn't the case here. Disregard what recent statistics may tell you, hell, DC hasn't even played and Rajon Rondo's been traded. I can't even believe we're having this discussion. I'm laughing at the idea that you're really saying DC is better than Rondo. DC's a good backup at best in this league, he doesn't deserve to be starting, but this team isn't talented enough at his position so we've got no choice. Ask any front office in this league who they'd rather have and you won't find one who will agree with your assessment. Rajon Rondo is a former all-star has won a ring has been deep into the playoffs I mean I get all the Rondo hate he's been I guess you can say detrimental to an extent in Dallas but come on now. Lol. Darren Collison Really?

I've been against Rondo forever, especially when many wanted to deal Ben for him. Dude is flat out overrated, and has flat out been crap since his dominant run in the 2011-2012 playoffs. He lost interest in playing defense a couple years back and his offense has become straight up laughable. 36% FT shooting? 43% TS? Like what?

Fact is, he's relied on his name to carry him for awhile now. Give Rondo's stats to some guy named John Applebum, and he's barely a bench player.

 

[PoundForPound]

I've been against Rondo forever, especially when many wanted to deal Ben for him. Dude is flat out overrated, and has flat out been crap since his dominant run in the 2011-2012 playoffs. He lost interest in playing defense a couple years back and his offense has become straight up laughable. 36% FT shooting? 43% TS? Like what?

Fact is, he's relied on his name to carry him for awhile now. Give Rondo's stats to some guy named John Applebum, and he's barely a bench player.

It's not always about shooting percentages, I'd love to have Rondo on this team. One of the best passing PG's in the game, not to mention one of the smartest, he knows his limitations and is so crafty with the basketball. His defense and ability to steal the basketball would do wonders for us. I can already imagine how many easy and open baskets Cousins would get playing with Rondo. I know you don't like him, say he's overrated, but it's the truth. There's no way you can argue that DC is better...seriously.

 

[rhythmless]

Rondo's a hard player to compare because he's so specialized. He's not a complete player. At this stage in his career he probably never will be. He's more system/personnel dependent than probably any other point guard in the league. If you use him right, he's easily upper echelon starting and the all star that we've seen. If you don't or if he's not motivated, he's an offensive liability that hampers your spacing. He needs the ball, he needs movement, and he needs flat out shooters and finishers. DC can plug and play into most systems as either a low end starter or pg off the bench. Who's a better player? In a vacuum, probably Rondo. But who's the easier one to extract value from? DC, easily.

 

[sdballer]

It's not always about shooting percentages, I'd love to have Rondo on this team. One of the best passing PG's in the game, not to mention one of the smartest, he knows his limitations and is so crafty with the basketball. His defense and ability to steal the basketball would do wonders for us. I can already imagine how many easy and open baskets Cousins would get playing with Rondo. I know you don't like him, say he's overrated, but it's the truth. There's no way you can argue that DC is better...seriously.

You know far less than you think you do.

 

[The_Jamal]

It's not always about shooting percentages, I'd love to have Rondo on this team. One of the best passing PG's in the game, not to mention one of the smartest, he knows his limitations and is so crafty with the basketball. His defense and ability to steal the basketball would do wonders for us. I can already imagine how many easy and open baskets Cousins would get playing with Rondo. I know you don't like him, say he's overrated, but it's the truth. There's no way you can argue that DC is better...seriously.

I actually did with 2 numbers and can do so with a mountain of more, but it wouldn't make any difference to you because you're blinded by the name. The one thing he had going for him was his elite playmaking ability and that's gone to hell too, despite remaining at a constant USG level with Dallas.

Forgive me if I don't want the most inefficient guard in the NBA who can't shoot a lick, doesn't play defense even a portion to where it was in his prime, turns the ball over a lot and requires a lot of ball attention. Give me DC and his solid contributions to every category any day of of the week.

 

[Kingster]

We are just fine.

Curry and Collison don't play the same position. Cousins and Curry play the same position. I'll take the big guy.

Come on. They don't play the same position, unless you have bought into the Cousins at pg role...

I don't understand this nonsense about a great pg being incompatible with a great center. Talk to Magic Johnson about that. If we had a young Magic Johnson, would you say, sorry, buddy, we just don't need you? How about John Stockton? We don't need you, John. See ya. A young Gary Payton. No siree. We're doing just fine without you. Chris Paul. We don't need no stinkin' Chris Paul. No, we're so freaking great we don't need greatness at the point guard position, or at any position other than the Cousins. Just look at our record. Why would we need any great player at any non-center position?

 

[Padrino]

Come on. They don't play the same position, unless you have bought into the Cousins at pg role...

I don't understand this nonsense about a great pg being incompatible with a great center. Talk to Magic Johnson about that. If we had a young Magic Johnson, would you say, sorry, buddy, we just don't need you? How about John Stockton? We don't need you, John. See ya. A young Gary Payton. No siree. We're doing just fine without you. Chris Paul. We don't need no stinkin' Chris Paul. No, we're so freaking great we don't need greatness at the point guard position, or at any position other than the Cousins. Just look at our record. Why would we need any great player at any non-center position?

a great pg is not necessarily incompatible with a great center. but where are you gonna get one? do you see a young magic johnson, john stockton, or gary payton walking through that door? those are all-time greats. do you even foresee another magic johnson or john stockton ever entering the nba again? if you want to try and coax a young gary payton onto your team, you draft elfrid payton and hope for the best, rather than imagining that nik stauskas will become the next klay thompson. of course, the elfrid payton ship has sailed. so, without a veteran star-level PG on the horizon, or the ability to trade for one, it's probably best to focus on other areas of need that the kings can address while darren collison adequately fills the starting PG spot...