Darren Collison ranked 23rd best PG in the league by ESPNs Player/Coach/Excutive board.

9x1x6

9x1x6

Bench
Post was edited do to violating board rules about posting full ESPN Insider articles.
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I've always said I don't think Collison is a starter in the NBA. He's not a great scorer not is he a great distributor. He's decent on defense because he's pesky and brings the effort.
Not a type of player to step up and put the team on his back.if he were, I think he'd be a top 20 PG in the nba.

Even with all this being said, I think he's a great back up pg, but a decent starting pg. I think the league has heavily gone towards elite PGs. Argument can be made that Collison fits the offense of a Rudy and Cuz, but there could be a counter argument saying Rudy and Cuz need a pg who can better them.

Do we keep up with the rest of the NBA and look for a star pg? I think we should, but it's the how.
 
Well what do you expect?

He's not the answer as your starting point guard if you're looking at being successful in the playoffs. He's a good solid player but when it comes to the rest of the starting PG's in this league, he's near the bottom.

No argument here. Kings need a better starting point guard.
 
9x1x6 said:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12546025/nba-top-30-point-guards-nba

Definite room for improvment, would anyone argue him higher then the people ranked in front of him?

I have to agree, I love what he has brought to this team, he's just not the starter level PG we need to make a playoff run.

DontHustleForRussell, DontPlayForMudiay?



What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

Has an argument up to about 19. And for us, its enough.

Consider:

Hakeem PGs, Robert Reid, Kenny Smith (a same range comparison), Matt Maloney
Admiral PGs, Antonio Daniels, (young) Rod Strickland, Avery Johnson
Ewing PGs, young Mark Jackson, Greg Anthony, old Doc Rivers, old Derek Harper
Shaq PGs, (briefly) Penny Hardaway, Brian Shaw, Ron Harper, Derek Fisher, Damon Jones, old Jason Williams
Yao PG (as franchise player): Rafer Alston
Dwight PG (as franchise player): Jameer Nelson

Darren is well within the bounds of all that is needed next to a franchise center. Doesn't have to be him, but not only does it not have to be a star, a "star" (as in gunning) PG is going to fight with the center for possessions, and leave us back in the IT/Rudy/Cuz deadlock again. Darren is sufficient, just need to build correctly around it. Get a SG who can help handle/pass. Add defenders and shooters on the edges.

P.S. Player to investigate btw: Ricky Rubio. After all this time.

It doesn't fit with a franchise center needing space, but then again I'm not sure Karl gets the whole franchise center thing yet. On the other hand he had Nate McMillan, young Gary Payton, he likes Andre Miller now. Big PGs, passing PGs (again, young Payton). Guys who could play some defense (when Miller was younger).
 
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Brick, I admire your comparisons and stats, but you really must begin admitting that the NBA today is a far cry from all those you are trying to compare it to.

The NBA is dominated by PG's.
Almost every single team in the league this year with a winning record has an elite PG.
The rules, the calls, and the style of offense has made the PG far more important than any other position.
Penetration is a requirement for offenses to run nowadays. It's simply too easy nowadays to deny the entry pass to a big man to set up the offense.

Darren is not an elite penetrator, nor passer, nor runner of the offense (pick-n-roll, etc).
I fear that somehow getting an above-average PG next year is one of the few ways this team can turn around and have the quick success that is required to keep Demarcus here and the team from crumbling.
 
IfAt1st said:
Brick, I admire your comparisons and stats, but you really must begin admitting that the NBA today is a far cry from all those you are trying to compare it to.

The NBA is dominated by PG's.
Almost every single team in the league this year with a winning record has an elite PG.
The rules, the calls, and the style of offense has made the PG far more important than any other position.
Penetration is a requirement for offenses to run nowadays. It's simply too easy nowadays to deny the entry pass to a big man to set up the offense.

Darren is not an elite penetrator, nor passer, nor runner of the offense (pick-n-roll, etc).
I fear that somehow getting an above-average PG next year is one of the few ways this team can turn around and have the quick success that is required to keep Demarcus here and the team from crumbling.
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The NBA is dominated by PGs...in large part because there ARE no centers.

I always like to throw this scenario out to test just how far gone newbie-ballers are:

SCENARIO: Shaq, Hakeem, Admiral, Ewing and Mourning are all in this draft class.

Whacha think? Think PGs are going to continue dominating the league?

Shake your head no.


Teams are built around PGs because PGs are the best guys right now. Its easier for them of course -- under 90s rules not as many of them would be elite. But we are in a PG talent rush regardless. In the early 2000s it was PF talent rush. In the 90s it was a C talent rush.

But talent rushes are irrelevant when you are the one team that HAS that great center. That's your talent rush. And you build around that player the same way you always did. Just as Seattle and Phoenix went ahead and built around PGs back in the 90s when everybody else had centers. They didn't -- they had PGs. So they built uptempo PGy teams.

Well, we're in the opposite position. Its a PG talent rush, and we have the great center. That doesn't change the center rules anymore than Ewing and Mourning and Shaq were changing the PG rules for Phoenix in the 90s. You would be sincerely basketball stupid to go run off and try to build your team with your superstar center as if he were instead a SF, or SG, or whatever. He's a center. Superstar centers do not NEED, nor in many cases even WANT a gunning PG out there. That is a conflict.
 
IfAt1st said:
Brick, I admire your comparisons and stats, but you really must begin admitting that the NBA today is a far cry from all those you are trying to compare it to.

The NBA is dominated by PG's.
Almost every single team in the league this year with a winning record has an elite PG.
The rules, the calls, and the style of offense has made the PG far more important than any other position.
Penetration is a requirement for offenses to run nowadays. It's simply too easy nowadays to deny the entry pass to a big man to set up the offense.

Darren is not an elite penetrator, nor passer, nor runner of the offense (pick-n-roll, etc).
I fear that somehow getting an above-average PG next year is one of the few ways this team can turn around and have the quick success that is required to keep Demarcus here and the team from crumbling.
Click to expand...

Beginning in 2000 (15 seasons), the following teams have won championships without a marquee PG:

Lakers 5x
Heat 3x
Mavs 1x

That's 9/15.

For the remaining 7, you have the Spurs with Parker (4), the Big 3 Celtics feat. Rondo (1), and the "all All-Stars" Pistons (1).

The majority of champions have not had great PGs, and the all-star PGs won were on great TEAMS that were stacked at other positions.
 
Bricklayer said:
Has an argument up to about 19. And for us, its enough.

Consider:

Hakeem PGs, Robert Reid, Kenny Smith (a same range comparison), Matt Maloney
Admiral PGs, Antonio Daniels, (young) Rod Strickland, Avery Johnson
Ewing PGs, young Mark Jackson, Greg Anthony, old Doc Rivers, old Derek Harper
Shaq PGs, (briefly) Penny Hardaway, Brian Shaw, Ron Harper, Derek Fisher, Damon Jones, old Jason Williams
Yao PG (as franchise player): Rafer Alston
Dwight PG (as franchise player): Jameer Nelson

Darren is well within the bounds of all that is needed next to a franchise center. Doesn't have to be him, but not only does it not have to be a star, a "star" (as in gunning) PG is going to fight with the center for possessions, and leave us back in the IT/Rudy/Cuz deadlock again. Darren is sufficient, just need to build correctly around it. Get a SG who can help handle/pass. Add defenders and shooters on the edges.

P.S. Player to investigate btw: Ricky Rubio. After all this time.

It doesn't fit with a franchise center needing space, but then again I'm not sure Karl gets the whole franchise center thing yet. On the other hand he had Nate McMillan, young Gary Payton, he likes Andre Miller now. Big PGs, passing PGs (again, young Payton). Guys who could play some defense (when Miller was younger).
Click to expand...
But Cuz could be better with a better pg. We've had so much trouble in the beginning of the year getting the ball down low to Cuz mostly because Darren took poor angles or forced the ball to him.

Medicorciy at pg isn't what this team needs. When was the last time we saw a player not named Miller give Cuz an easy dunk? Could be argued that if we had a better PG, Cuz would get a lot more open looks. Also think about the all around team effect Collison has. What kinds of open looks does he get for Ben, JT, and Rudy?


The last time we asked Collison to step up, he looked like another garbage bench player. If we are serious about playoffs, PG is a position we'll have to upgrade sooner or later. We also need a pg to compete against the rest of the NBA..especially if we want to remain competitive in TODAYS NBA.



Let's see who gets drafted #1 overall.. Okafor, not Towns are the most similar to those guys you've just named. Let's see if a more agile PF or a PG gets drafted #1 overall instead of Okafor.
 
There are 30 NBA teams. Collison being in the 20-25 range among PGs is about right. He's a solid (if unspectacular) starter or an elite backup. That doesn't mean we need to upgrade. Several of the guys ranked in the "elite" category are really glorified SGs who happen to play PG because they handle the ball. Unless we trade Rudy Gay, we wouldn't be better off with a Kyrie Irving or Kemba Walker type at PG anyway. That being said, every team would benefit from having an elite PG who can control the pace of the game. I think the best option for us to upgrade in the backcourt right now would be to find a 6'5"+ combo guard who can excel at both positions. That would allow us to continue to get the most out of both Collison and McLemore while giving us a backcourt scorer who can create their own shot. If this player is also a good defender, even better. If this player is young enough and talented enough to grow into an elite PG down the line, then we're set.
 
let's just put it this way.....Collison is a backup PG starting on a lottery team so there can always be improvement in the PG department if the opportunity arises no question.
 
I couldn't help but notice that only one of the point guards ranked ahead of Collison plays with a center as good offensively as DeMarcus Cousins. Come to think of it, only five of them even play with an elite offensive big, at all. It seems as though elite scoring point guards and elite scoring bigs do not go hand-in-hand.
 
I agree with everything Brick said assuming that the Kings were looking to play inside out and surround DMC with shooting and playmaking 2-4 like what JVG did I'm Orlando.

We appear interested in pushing the ball up the court and running a lot of dribble drive offense. Those are not well manned by a caretaker like Collison. You need a dynamic guard that can regularly break down the defense for dribble drive.

Collison is a good value and fits a role for a team we could try to build. It's just unclear whether our owner has any interest in such a team.
 
When you consider the amount of talent at the PG position 23rd is really not that bad, plus I have not looked at the list and won't but I'm sure you could argue him pushing up some, he played well for us this year and is a decent fit.
 
Larry David said:
I agree with everything Brick said assuming that the Kings were looking to play inside out and surround DMC with shooting and playmaking 2-4 like what JVG did I'm Orlando.

We appear interested in pushing the ball up the court and running a lot of dribble drive offense. Those are not well manned by a caretaker like Collison. You need a dynamic guard that can regularly break down the defense for dribble drive.

Collison is a good value and fits a role for a team we could try to build. It's just unclear whether our owner has any interest in such a team.
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Let's give him a chance to try before we state he isn't going to do well, shall we?

And if the FO is intent on ignoring the team's all-star talent in order to push for a system that doesn't work as well, then our front office may need to remove their noggins from anal orifices and start playing in a way that led to some solid wins early this season.
 
I don't care how low he is ranked we better not give up Ben/Nik/our 1st for Ty Lawson. Have way to many holes to trade for a position that we arnt weak at.
 
hrdboild said:
I think the best option for us to upgrade in the backcourt right now would be to find a 6'5"+ combo guard who can excel at both positions. That would allow us to continue to get the most out of both Collison and McLemore while giving us a backcourt scorer who can create their own shot. If this player is also a good defender, even better. If this player is young enough and talented enough to grow into an elite PG down the line, then we're set.
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That kinda sounds like Tyreke Evans ;)
 
We don't need an elite or passing PG as much as we need shooters. Getting an elite PG would be nice and shiny, but its not a priority. We need to get or develop shooters.

Good news, though: McCallum is improving as a distributor. He'll have a satisfying career in the NBA.
 
I don't understand how you guys can say, "23 sounds about right" and in the same vein say "he's not starting quality." Huh? 30 teams in the NBA. 30 point guards must start and by definition there must be 30 starting level point guards. The 31st ranked pg, by definition, would be the first bench quality pg.

Is he upper echelon starting? No. But then, that's kind of what 16-30 denotes, isn't it? He does what he's supposed to for the most part. He's passable and he's not the most immediate reason we are garbage. 23. Out of 30.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.
 
no problem with DC at all. in fact im happy for us to build with him moving forward. He's solid for what we need at that position and does a consistent job. Him and miller would be fine for next season. We need balance and distribution.
 
Bang for the buck he is fine. Probably a little expensive off the bench, but a discounted starter.

Our problem is our "bucks" saved, are not invested wisely.

You build a quality higher budget trio or maybe even foursome and it works.
 
KingMilz said:
When you consider the amount of talent at the PG position 23rd is really not that bad, plus I have not looked at the list and won't but I'm sure you could argue him pushing up some, he played well for us this year and is a decent fit.
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We need to upgrade our starting PG and demote Collison to the bench, where he would fit perfectly. He just doesn't make players around him better. Yes, he hustles and plays hard, but if we want to become the kind of team that we're hoping for, we need a quality PG who isn't just "good enough" to get by with.
 
PoundForPound said:
We need to upgrade our starting PG and demote Collison to the bench, where he would fit perfectly. He just doesn't make players around him better. Yes, he hustles and plays hard, but if we want to become the kind of team that we're hoping for, we need a quality PG who isn't just "good enough" to get by with.
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Not really. He's a top 20 pg and more importantly he's the best "available" fit with our roster.

We've got much bigger problems to solve.
 
sdballer said:
Not really. He's a top 20 pg and more importantly he's the best "available" fit with our roster.

We've got much bigger problems to solve.
Click to expand...

There's 30 teams. That's like saying well Montana is a top 40 state.

Yes, we do have other more glaring weaknesses, I can see us scratching at the 8th seed soon, but DC isn't the impactful point guard you need if you're aiming at any type of glorified success. Crucial position. You need a floor general who makes his team better, can score when needed, etc. etc.
 
23rd seems about right. What is most concerning to me is that the 23 rd best in the league is the best guard on the Kings by a large margin.

When you start at 23 and go down quickly from there = trouble in River City.
 
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