I don't know about anyone else, but I've certainly missed his incredible insight.
Cuz named to Select Team
- Thread starter Section 101
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I don't know about anyone else, but I've certainly missed his incredible insight.
Section 101
All-Star
bajaden
Hall of Famer
No one ever accused Amare of being a top defender in the league. Bosh is an overrated defender. Now Dwight is another story altogether. But of those three, Dwight is the only center, so its not really fair to compare Cuz to PF's. Besides, the european centers aren't known for their blistering speed and quickness. In my humble opinion, Cuz is a perfect fit to play in european BB. He's a physical, very skilled big man.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
You stand alone in your admiration of imcompetence without wit.
And once again, I mourn the lack of a "sarcasm" emoticon...
Fair enough. My stance is something like this - if team USA were to play a more traditional, NBA-like style of play then Cousins would indeed be a very good center for international basketball due to his skills and quickness. Given that Team USA seems to play very uptempo, just forcing turnovers and running the other way for dunks to the tune of blowing out most opponents by 30+ points however, I would imagine they'd be better off going small and getting away with having Amare/Bosh at Center, or the more athletic types like Chandler and Howard (and thus Favors) if they were to play more full-sized.
Note that I never said Cousins wouldn't be good/ dominate against international opponents, I simply said that the current Team USA in particular would probably benefit more from a guy like Favors than someone like Cousins. And when you have a team filled with superstars like James, Durant and Kobe, you don't exactly need someone like Cousins who you can throw the ball to to make a play if the score is tight.
There are equal number of offensive and defensive possessions in a game. Cousins is a bad defender and while he is a great offensive rebounded he isn't nearly as dominate on the defensive glass. Favors helps the team win more than Cousins does. I am not sure why that is considered so stupid on this board. The Kings scored a ton and lost a bunch of games games last year. Defense, especially from your bigs is very valuable. Team USA won't need scoring from either Cousins or Favors. They will want defense, defensive rebounding and running from their bigs.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Not to interrupt your absolutely enlightening and insightful and whole-heartedly non-Jazz-slanted analysis but there aren't. Factor in turnovers, offensive rebounds, steals, etc., etc.
Umm......yes there are. Think about it for a minute.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
If basketball were like baseball and had no way for teams to exchange possessions before reaching their conclusion (e.g team B shoots, team A gets the ball back regardless) then yes there would be but turnovers, changes of possessions, offensive rebounds make it so that one team will not have the same amount of opportunities as the other.
That is true but it isn't what I said. I said there are equal number of offensive and defensive possessions in a game.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Then what would offensive rebounds be then?
It would be another offensive possession for one team and another defensive possession for the other. See how they balance out? There simply can't be more offensive possessions than there are defensive possessions. One team can have more of one than the other but there can't be more of one than the other in the game.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Alright, I see what you're getting at. That said, you do realize that nothing that you say aside from providing tangible proof that Favors sold his soul to the devil in order to be possessed by the disembodied spirit of Bill Russell is going to convince any of us that he is a better choice for the Olympic team than one of the top five centers in the NBA.
I have no doubt the most of the people on this board think that DMC is a top 5 center and Favors is kind of scrub. That just isn't the case. Favors helps his team win as much or more than DMC helps his team win. They do it in different ways and the way that Favors does it is what they will need more of on team USA.
I promise that I have watched far more of Cousins (and cheered for him to do well) than anybody on this board has watched of Favors. Favors is a force on the defensive end and is much better on offense than DMC is on defense. That is my opinion and I realize that is isn't very popular around here but still, I haven't been rude or discourteous on this board and welcome dialog on the subject.
Why are we even arguing about this? Cousins is great, so is Favors. If we could steal him from you guys I would in a second. But none of us is on the Olympic selection committee. Either Cousins will make it or Favors will or neither will. If there's news to report, great. But otherwise this is a dead-end argument. Actual practice begins this weekend and we can re-visit this in a week after there's some relevant performance to evaluate and see what's likely to happen.
Heuge
Starter
Meh.
Most do not think Favors is a scrub, but like the rest of the world outside of SLC, folks realize Cousins is better.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I'm sorry, that's just far too great a concession. Favors is a kid with a lot of potenial. But an 8.8pt 6.5reb PF is NOT great. He's not there yet. Like anybody not there yet he could pull up at any point. He might be 14 and 8 in his prime. Maybe it will be 16 and 9. Maybe he truly is 20-10. But he's not there yet, and there's no comparison ot a guy who was ALREADY and 18 and 11 guy by his sophomore year, and nearly 20-10 after the All Star break. ONE of those two players is as prolific as any player his age has been since Shaq and Duncan. The other is just a good looking prospect.
P.S. +/- stats are always dicey in my mind, but as long as we are going to talk about the 8.8ppg 6.5reb kid is helping his team win as much or more than the guy doubling his numbers, I should note that the Jazz were a -2.3ppg with Favors on the court, while the Kings were a +3.3 with Cousins.
Dime Dropper
All-Star
[/Exhales] Ahhhhh. Love when this happens. Makes it much easier for me to be lazy when it comes to stuff like this.
Like PPG and RPG stats mean anything when comparing the 2 players. Cousins plays far more minutes and is given the ball much more often. Favors played much, much better the second half of the season, especially on the defensive end.
You keep acting like Cousin is a dominate center and he just isn't. He isn't even close really. He doesn't shoot a great percentage and is a bad defender. He does have a plethora of moves in the low post and has shown touch on outside jumpers but his best offensive move seems to be to throw up a shot and then get the offensive rebound which he does very well.
He does have the potential to be but right now he is Al Jefferson playing for the T-Wolves. Good numbers, no wins.
I guess what I was responding to was the idea that Favors isn't considered very good around here because his numbers aren't there yet. (Which you seem to agree with, but I don't think the numbers tell the whole story when you compare each guy's roster situation) I've been an advocate of acquiring Favors for the past two seasons. Probably way before he was even on the average Jazz fans' radar. But arguing that Cousins is more deserving of an Olympic spot at this point is not the same thing as saying Favors isn't very good. If we're looking at past performance or NBA success it's no contest. But then it's hard to make an argument that Olympic roster spots should be earned when Anthony Davis somehow gets his name on the roster after one season in college and DeMarcus Cousins has to play with the scrimmage team.
I don't think it matters that much to the selection committee which was the better player last season, I think they're just going to watch what happens in practice and if they need an extra player (and they are allowed to add someone else to the roster this late, which may not be the case anyway) than it's going to be based on which player looked more motivated in practice and which fits better with the current personnel. Maybe Davis was a Dwight Howard replacement and they only want to fill that spot with a defensive specialist. That would give the edge to Favors wouldn't it?
Which brings me back to my point. It's a stupid argument, it's going nowhere. Let's just wait and see.
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Wow, I couldn't disagree more in your assessment of Cousins. Which begs the question, have you actually seen him play? Some guys put up scoring numbers without really helping their team win. Cousins is a dominant force when he wants to be. There's a big difference.
Why doesn't he want to be more often? Why doesn't he want to be enough to help his team win? I watched most of the kings games this year.
I felt Cousins dominated at an increasing rate towards the end of this past season. He's still learning and adjusting to the NBA game. He didn't become the focal point of the offense until maybe halfway through the season.
Cuz has had to deal with a few things so far in his NBA career. First, he had a coach throw him under the bus. That set him back some. Secondly, he's in it bad with the refs. He had foul issues, but now he has ref issues. He gets no ref love and it limits his minutes. Third, he's been playing without a real PG for most of his NBA time. It's been a lot of solo-work for him to get shots, up until IT rose up to get him easier looks. For the first quarter of the season, most of Cousins' shots were from gobbling up the rebounds from the junkthe rest of the team was putting up. Then he'd get tired of being the putback machine, ignore the team offense and go one on one. Like most of the team, he wasn't a part of an offensive system and would go freestyle when frustration hit. This didn't really teach him anything about how to do his best in the NBA game.
Then Westphal was fired, IT got more minutes, Smart slowly had a tidbit of a real offense emerge, and Clifford Ray was hired.
He's overcome all of those things to go from "maybe zach randolph" to "potentially the top big man" in discussions.
Cuz has had to deal with a few things so far in his NBA career. First, he had a coach throw him under the bus. That set him back some. Secondly, he's in it bad with the refs. He had foul issues, but now he has ref issues. He gets no ref love and it limits his minutes. Third, he's been playing without a real PG for most of his NBA time. It's been a lot of solo-work for him to get shots, up until IT rose up to get him easier looks. For the first quarter of the season, most of Cousins' shots were from gobbling up the rebounds from the junkthe rest of the team was putting up. Then he'd get tired of being the putback machine, ignore the team offense and go one on one. Like most of the team, he wasn't a part of an offensive system and would go freestyle when frustration hit. This didn't really teach him anything about how to do his best in the NBA game.
Then Westphal was fired, IT got more minutes, Smart slowly had a tidbit of a real offense emerge, and Clifford Ray was hired.
He's overcome all of those things to go from "maybe zach randolph" to "potentially the top big man" in discussions.
I like Cousins, but he shoots far too poorly from the field to be considered an elite or dominant big man.
Is he an excellent rebounder? Sure. A great passer? Definitely. One of the most underrated defenders in the league? I think so. But you just can't shoot 45% as a center and be considered one of the best at your position. The great centers in the game right now (think Howard and Bynum.) are shooting over 55%. A good center like Al Jefferson shoots around 50%.
I think Cousins has the potential to be that kind of dominant force offensively. His problems are more a result of poor shot selection than a lack of ability. If he refines his game (less jumpshots, less trying to take players off the dribble, more low post work) then he can make it.
Is he an excellent rebounder? Sure. A great passer? Definitely. One of the most underrated defenders in the league? I think so. But you just can't shoot 45% as a center and be considered one of the best at your position. The great centers in the game right now (think Howard and Bynum.) are shooting over 55%. A good center like Al Jefferson shoots around 50%.
I think Cousins has the potential to be that kind of dominant force offensively. His problems are more a result of poor shot selection than a lack of ability. If he refines his game (less jumpshots, less trying to take players off the dribble, more low post work) then he can make it.
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Dime Dropper
All-Star
I find your claim that you've watched most Kings games hard to believe. Maybe you feel it legitimises your argument, but I think most people here are very skeptical of how much you've actually seen him play given the things you've said about him.
You also seem to be implying a lack of desire/motivation to dominate on his part, which is of course a silly claim. The reason we didn't win is because quite simply, we're not a very good team. Don't play defense (hard when your FO doesn't value defensive players), poor coaches, broke ownership. The list goes on. Placing the blame on Cousins, a second year player, for not carrying a poor team with the aforementioned handicaps to more wins, is just bizarre. He's not near his potential yet, I'll give you that. And that's the scary thing. Motivation and desire is not a problem for DeMarcus. He wants to, and will be, great.
The difference is that Howard and Bynum need someone to set them up to score at that rate. DMC is one of the only big men in the league where you can dump it down to him on the low block and let him go to work. That is an incredibly rare skill. Once he figures it all out, he will be an automatic 2 points whenever it is needed.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Howard and Bynum are good but they sure aren't Derrick Favors.
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