jeffjcalweb
G-League
well said brick. i'd argue mobley is a bit better than just a good scorer. not elite like kobe or mcgrady, but a step above good.
Stojakovic
Bench
bigbadred00 said:
Ahhh...no they don't.
Manu is better in just about every stat. He rebounds more and assists more in almost 10 minutes less than Cat...not to mention that he is one of the best "thieves" in the game.
jeff - take a look through the top 50, not just scoring and then compare them to Cuttino's stats. I suggest you take a good look at efficiency.
I am not implying that Cuttino is the problem of this team, but a good fit he is definitely not.
bigbadred00
Starter
Manu averages 1.7 a game and WEBBER is averaging 1.5 a game in 6 more minutes per game. Manu is a good defender but I wouldnt say a thief. Manu is definitely a good player, a great defender but he's no Larry Hughes when it comes to steals.
jeffjcalweb
G-League
i didn't look at just scoring, that was the list you sent w/just scoring. i don't need to break down the NBA players association for you, i watch enough bball to know what i'm talking about.
and by the way, here's Ginobilli's stats (again, check your facts):
15.9 ppg, 4.0 apg, 3.7 rpg, 1.6 spg 36% 3PT FG 26.5 min/game.
sure looks a lot like these numbers:
17.5 ppg, 3.7 apg, 3.0pg, 1.0 spg, 46% 3PT FG (remember, the bigger this number the BETTER it its) 34 min/game
done with this thread, either you understand the point or you don't.
and by the way, here's Ginobilli's stats (again, check your facts):
15.9 ppg, 4.0 apg, 3.7 rpg, 1.6 spg 36% 3PT FG 26.5 min/game.
sure looks a lot like these numbers:
17.5 ppg, 3.7 apg, 3.0pg, 1.0 spg, 46% 3PT FG (remember, the bigger this number the BETTER it its) 34 min/game
done with this thread, either you understand the point or you don't.
bigbadred00
Starter
Manu is up to 30 MPG actually according to espn 4.6 bpg and 3.8 apg.
mobley on the kings is playing 39 a game actually. Manu is up to 32 mpg this month....and it keeps rising.
mobley on the kings is playing 39 a game actually. Manu is up to 32 mpg this month....and it keeps rising.
Stojakovic
Bench
bigbadred00 said:
What ?!?!?
Webber is averaging 1.47 in 36.2 minutes, while Manu averages 1.71 in 30.0 minutes per game. What were you trying to say with that ? Manu is certainly elite in steals, has been so since his days in Europe. He's #8 in steals per 48 this year, even when he's not doing as good as he was last year and in his rookie year (rookie year, 1.5 steals in 20 minutes). We weren't even talking about Webber.
Manu's efficiency in 30 minutes a game is at nearly 18 ... while Cuttino's at 35 is not even at 14.
Stojakovic
Bench
jeffjcalweb said:
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/emanuel_ginobili/index.html?nav=page
Not according to NBA.com , but I guess that site isn't trustworthy.
I think you're the one who needs to check his "facts".
bigbadred00
Starter
My point is slow Webber is averaging 2.00 per 48 while Manu the theif is averaging 2.7 per 48. I guess that's a huge difference but it really isn't.
jeffjcalweb
G-League
Stojakovic said:
my numbers are from nba.com each players individual stats, broken down by this season.
jeffjcalweb
G-League
we posted the same link, what are you looking at???? how are you saying his numbers aren't what i posted??? we used the same freaking link, look at the 04-05 numbers. it isn't that complicated.
Stojakovic
Bench
bigbadred00 said:
Slow Webber ? He's at 1.5 steals per game this season, and that is VERY RESPECTABLE. I think Webber is pretty good at that department.
bigbadred00
Starter
i don't think mobley's the issue. the issues are EFFORT on D, effort on BOARDS, effort on guarding the basket, on top of injuries and sickness. you can blame mobley solely but im not sure if we'd be much better off with christie cause the magic aren't doing too well either i think there under 500 since the trade. we were winning 75% of our games with mobley before this bad stretch. i know the team can do it again.
bigbadred00
Starter
Well Webber is known for not being that fast, being bad on D (personally I think these both are false) but your theif is not much better and he's known as 1 of the best right. Whatever, not the point.
jeffjcalweb
G-League
yes, webber has good hands, very respectable getting steals. too bad he gets a lot of calls (fouls) when he makes that strip move on the ball, ref's just assume its a foul.
Stojakovic
Bench
jeffjcalweb said:
Ok seriously, whatever you're smoking...I want that ish !
I never even said that you had the wrong numbers (even though they WERE wrong) until you said that mine were.
"15.9 ppg, 4.0 apg, 3.7 rpg, 1.6 spg 36% 3PT FG 26.5 min/game."
It's 4.5 and 4.0 , along with 1.71 steals, 39% 3PT, 48% FG in 30 min/game along with an efficiency of 17.76
COMPARED TO
16.7, 3.3, 2.6 and 1.03 steals in 34.7 minutes...along with an efficiency of 13.7.
Is that clear enough for you, or shall I draw a picture ?
bigbadred00
Starter
use the kings stats instead of the magic and kings stats. that's where the line is drawn.
jeffjcalweb
G-League
which is exactly what i said in my first post, mobley's numbers in the 17 games played with the kings. next time, i'll post it in canadian (hehe).
bigbadred00
Starter
I just did the calculation his efficicency is 15.5 on the Kings, which compared to Brad, Chris or Bibby is pretty bad but is a ton better than what Christie was averaging.
bigbadred00
Starter
christie's is 11.7 on the kings but in 32 minutes instead of mobley's 38.
While Doug was slowing down and not as good as he had been 1-on-1, he was still the "one man zone", helping not only the defensively-challenged Bibby but the other 3 on the floor, too. All the freakin' time he was helping.
Mobley is probably not that much worse a 1-on-1 defender as Doug, but the other 4 guys are mostly on their own on the floor now. And that has been telling as the Kings have given up 5 points per game more since the Christie-Mobley trade.
This trade, although it gave us mega-more fire power on O than what we ever coulda got outta Doug, I now believe has hampered our defense to the point where we now see a LOT more clearly its weaknesses....crappy PG 1-on-1 defense and poor front line mobility. And these weaknesses, because they are no longer ameliorated by an outstanding all-NBA defensive team player chipping in to assist and mask them somewhat, have now translated into losses. Ugly *** losses on the D end, at that.
Then, to top it all off, although Peja had one big scoring game since the trade, he seems more left out on the offense, and I think that Mobley has had a lot to do with it. In addition, Mike plays the 2-man game too damn much with Webb to the exclusion of Peja and other players on the floor at the time. Previous years we saw a healthy mixture of the 2-man game and the 5-man passing game...and that worked just peachy keen. Not any longer...it's more like 80% 2-man game and 20% all-team passing game.
And Mobley, when he does get the ball, is not looking to pass unless he's sealed off. he's had some nice assists, but I would term the majority of them "forced" assists. This is bad for the team.
I have now come to the conclusion that the Mobley-Christie trade was a bad one for the Kings, a miscalculated error, and not worthy of a 4-year extension for Petrie. Even if another trade to get a better defender inside is made, the Kings' defense has still been altered beyond repair from where it was. I really appreciate Doug's TEAM defense, now that he's gone and I have beared witness to the carnage left behind.
Mobley is probably not that much worse a 1-on-1 defender as Doug, but the other 4 guys are mostly on their own on the floor now. And that has been telling as the Kings have given up 5 points per game more since the Christie-Mobley trade.
This trade, although it gave us mega-more fire power on O than what we ever coulda got outta Doug, I now believe has hampered our defense to the point where we now see a LOT more clearly its weaknesses....crappy PG 1-on-1 defense and poor front line mobility. And these weaknesses, because they are no longer ameliorated by an outstanding all-NBA defensive team player chipping in to assist and mask them somewhat, have now translated into losses. Ugly *** losses on the D end, at that.
Then, to top it all off, although Peja had one big scoring game since the trade, he seems more left out on the offense, and I think that Mobley has had a lot to do with it. In addition, Mike plays the 2-man game too damn much with Webb to the exclusion of Peja and other players on the floor at the time. Previous years we saw a healthy mixture of the 2-man game and the 5-man passing game...and that worked just peachy keen. Not any longer...it's more like 80% 2-man game and 20% all-team passing game.
And Mobley, when he does get the ball, is not looking to pass unless he's sealed off. he's had some nice assists, but I would term the majority of them "forced" assists. This is bad for the team.
I have now come to the conclusion that the Mobley-Christie trade was a bad one for the Kings, a miscalculated error, and not worthy of a 4-year extension for Petrie. Even if another trade to get a better defender inside is made, the Kings' defense has still been altered beyond repair from where it was. I really appreciate Doug's TEAM defense, now that he's gone and I have beared witness to the carnage left behind.
Stojakovic
Bench
bigbadred00 said:
Ok, I gave you the stats which ranks Ginobili among the top in every stat related to steals. Your argument was that Ginobili is not one of the best thieves because Webber averages 1.5 steals per game, and he quite frankly sucks at steals (must suck, since he averages 1.5 which puts him in the top 20 in the league...and by the way, you DONT have to be a great defender to be a good thief). Besides, Manu almost averages 1 steal more per 48 minutes than Chris Webber. It's not like they're close in that category anyway.
You're right ... whatever ! Whatever stat I provide you with will never be enough to prove anything to you.
SIR HENRY 8
Bench
hears a stat for ya.DC is'nt a KING anymore move on.
Stojakovic
Bench
jeffjcalweb said:
And even then, the #'s aren't even close unless you're willing to ignore the minutes (which STILL makes Ginobili better, perhaps even substantially at 8-9 minutes less per game).
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
1kingzfan said:
All of this after one injury racked month?
In any case -- there was no future with Doug. He had to go or just be lost to old age. And unfortunately good as Geoff is, very few teams are willing to trade their young defensive studs for your old former defensive stud. So now we have Mobley's offense, something we did not before. And all that has changed is that now we need to make a second move to bring back some defense. Nothing irrevocable about it. Just the constant balance every team is always searching for. Now we have offense to spare in a trade.
Lest we all forget, Doug was around last year, and our defense sucked. Doug was around the first half of this year, and our defense was barely adequate. He just could not do it alone anymore (and may never have -- Pollard, Hedo, JJ, Keon, younger, healthier Webb + Bobby, all helped and are all gone).
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bigbadred00
Starter
Before this horrid streak but after the trade including the games without Mobley we were 10-3 Average for us 103.2 and average Allowed 98.8. Which I believe on the allowed is .8 higher than after the trade. The last 7 games is totally different from those first 13 games without Christie.
The last 7 games after the group of Peja, Webber and Mobley came back from injury we are horrible. 106 ppg for us, 110.3 for them. If any indication theres something that happened after the injury because before the injuries we were playing pretty good ball if you could all agree. Maybe all the teams finally understood how to exploit there team or maybe P, W, and M are still not healthy.
The last 7 games after the group of Peja, Webber and Mobley came back from injury we are horrible. 106 ppg for us, 110.3 for them. If any indication theres something that happened after the injury because before the injuries we were playing pretty good ball if you could all agree. Maybe all the teams finally understood how to exploit there team or maybe P, W, and M are still not healthy.
SIR HENRY 8
Bench
I think other teams have come to realize when playing KINGS that the diamond lane is open for most of the game.It irks me to watch other small guys walk right by our BIGS to the hoop,of our starters it seems like MILLER is the only one that tries. When WEBBERs jumpers not dropping (20for63)WHY does'nt he take to the hoop??
jeffjcalweb
G-League
Stojakovic said:
well that's fine in theory, but the reality is the numbers you see. mobley plays X minutes and produces the stats you see.
ginobilli plays Y minutes and produces the stats you see.
this has been beaten to death by each of us. i have lost what point you were trying to make, and the point i was & feel i made is mobley is anything but a cancer and gives the kings a better player then DC as of this season.
KP
Starter
This is such a good post^. It's nice to actually read real numbers backing up someones opinion. It's not even just numbers Cats hit big 3's and made key steals in the 4th to win games for us. This thread is just silly, If you want proof just read Jeffjcw's post again, I quoted it. How Manu Ginobili got brought into this discussion is beyond me.jeffjcalweb said:
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