Concern about Webber

[Gary]

I am concerned about Webbers productivity on the floor. It seems he is taking more shots than making points.. All upper echelon power forwards take about 5-10 fewer shots than points scored. This scares me because Webber takes the most shots on the floor EVERY night. I know the assists he gets makes up for some of the offense he lacks but rebounding, lack of creating his own shot, and the amount of shots he takes really concerns me. It is almost like I would rather see Songalia start because my eyes hurt when I see Webber struggle out there. On any other team with a halfway decent PF Webber would not start.

 

[Bricklayer]

On any other team with a halfway decent PF Webber would not start.

You are seriously confused my friend. Perhaps you missed the previous two games?

He had a bad game. Going to happen. Especially with his knee on a back to back. No biggee. No back to backs come the playoffs.

 

[Gary]

I am looking at the season as a WHOLE.. Not confused at all. I think Webbers productivity leaves MUCH to be desired. I am looking at this through the eyes not as the kings homer that I am but as an impartial observer.

I am not talking about the bad game he had last night although the amount of shots he took compared to the points he scored is what made me look at the entire season.

 

[Gary]

pretty much scores 20 points on 20 shots.. That is not good

Amare Stoudemire has 26 points on 16 shots
Duncan 21 points on 16 shots
Randolf 20 points on 17 shots
Garnett 23 points on 18 shots
J. O'neal 25 points on 18 shots
Gasol 19 points on 13 shots
Dirk 26 points on 18 shots..


Well you get the picture..

 

[piksi]

pretty much scores 20 points on 20 shots.. That is not good

Amare Stoudemire has 26 points on 16 shots
Duncan 21 points on 16 shots
Randolf 20 points on 17 shots
Garnett 23 points on 18 shots
J. O'neal 25 points on 18 shots
Gasol 19 points on 13 shots
Dirk 26 points on 18 shots..


Well you get the picture..

All these players are younger/healthier and their teammates are not as talented as Kings.
He does shoot too many jumpers.

 

[Gary]

Younger and healthier does not make a guy shoot better. I would think shooting better comes with age? None of the people listed above shoot the ball as much as Webber does anyway.

Anyhow, the point is that Webber is lacking in the productivity dept. Maybe he shouldn't shoot as much.

 

[Ryle]

Younger and healthier does not make a guy shoot better. I would think shooting better comes with age? None of the people listed above shoot the ball as much as Webber does anyway.

Anyhow, the point is that Webber is lacking in the productivity dept. Maybe he shouldn't shoot as much.

Amare gets 1/2 to 3/4 of his points on dunks when Nash dishes off to him. Also, alot of these players get their points from the line. Bad shooting night for Chris and it's obvious he didn't have it last night. How come no one is bitching about Peja's disappearance.....again.......last night????

 

[RageMe11]

The only thing about webber that irritates me during a game is that he shoots too much even when he is missing. I fhe is making the shots, hey shoot them all night, but you have got to know your limits for the game, take the ball in the paint and gain some confidence for that shot. I also think that if someone other than webb is hot at ny particular moment, doesn't really matter who it is, he always seems to take the shots even when they should be trying to get the ball to the man with the hot hand. Not trying to come down on webb, i love the guy but since this was a thread about webb shooting too much, just thought that i would put my two cents in as well.

But like brick said, it was a back-to-back, it is understandable that webb didn't shoot as well, i can imagine how an injury like that could effect someone's shot, but as a whole, the Kings should NOT have lost that game last night. Pretty embarassing.

 

[Gary]

Amare gets 1/2 to 3/4 of his points on dunks when Nash dishes off to him. Also, alot of these players get their points from the line. Bad shooting night for Chris and it's obvious he didn't have it last night. How come no one is bitching about Peja's disappearance.....again.......last night????

Because I am talking about shots VS. Points in which Peja does not have a problem.. Peja takes 15 shots a game and scores 20 points. Yes a lot of his shots are 3 pointers, but a lot of the names I listed above don't ever take them like Webber.

 

[Gary]

Notice too that I am taking the whole seasons stats, so please don't tell me I am posting this because of one bad game thanks!

 

[Gary]

Should Bibby be able to get Webber the ball down low to dunk? Last I saw Bibby was a great point guard (all star caliber) as well.

 

[Ryle]

I would venture to say that Webb handles the ball alot more than the players you mentioned as well. Basically the ball comes in to Webb and he either has to pass it or shoot it..........if no one is open or people are just standing around he needs to shoot the ball. Don't blame Webb, blame the offense that the Kings run. I don't know how many times I hear "MOVE" when I am at ARCO watching a game. The ball comes into Webb on the high post and everyone just freezes.

 

[Ryle]

Also, I think you will see Webb sit out one of the next 2 games. Probably play tomorrow night and then sit against NO. NO plays in Memphis on Friday night so it's a back to back for them too and if we can't beat them then we are indeed in trouble. We should finish this road trip at 3-1.

 

[Bricklayer]

Actually here is an interesting thing that people rarely talk about -- but when you draw a lot of fouls you GREATLY inflate your points per shot stat. Now foul shots are nifty things, but they do NOT come free -- when a guy gets fouled taking a shot and shoots two FTs, well, that's still basically a shot. Its a possession where he, and only he gets a chance to score. You want the total number of shots he's taking its far more accurate to add in FT attempts and divide it by 2.

This isn't dickering with numbers. This is actually a far more accurate assessment of how many possessions it takes a guy to score his points than points per shot, because not all points come from shots:

let's take a look at those scorers again:

Stoudemire: 26.4pts 16.3FGAs 9.9FTAs/2 = 5.0 TOTAL = 21.3 possessions
1.24 pt/poss
Duncan: 21.8pts 16.6FGAs 7.8FTAs/2 = 3.9 TOTAL = 20.5 possessions
1.06 pt/poss
Randolph: 20.1pts 17.2FGAs 6.0FTAs/2 = 3.0 TOTAL = 20.2 possessions
0.99 pt/poss
Garnett:23.9pts 18.0FGAs 7.6FTAs/2=3.8 TOTAL = 21.8 possessions
1.09 pt/poss
O'Neal: 25.2pts 18.7FGAs 9.9FTAs/2=5.0 TOTAL = 23.7 possessions
1.06 pt/poss
Gasol: 19.4pts 13.2FGAs 7.6FTAs/2=3.8 TOTAL = 17.0 possessions
1.14 pt/poss
Nowitzki: 26.7pts 18.8FGAs 10.0FTAs/2=5.0 TOTAL = 23.8 possessions
1.12 pt/poss
Webber: 20.6pts 19.8FGAs 3.6FTAs/2=1.8 TOTAL = 21.6 possessions
0.95 pt/poss

The difference is not that huge. Especially not when you consider that Gasol and especially Stoudemire really do not belong on that list. They are finishers who get a huge percentage of their shots off of the work of their teamamtes. The other guys all have responsibility of being thrown the ball and doing the creating for themselves (or in Webber and garnett's case, for others as well).

 

[Gary]

Thanks for the breakdown. It does mean a lot when there is 20 posessions per game. That .24 adds up to more than 2ppg.

Anyhow it was just an observation I had which I have noticed a lot lately.

 

[bibbyweb]

I am concerned about Webbers productivity on the floor. It seems he is taking more shots than making points.. All upper echelon power forwards take about 5-10 fewer shots than points scored. This scares me because Webber takes the most shots on the floor EVERY night. I know the assists he gets makes up for some of the offense he lacks but rebounding, lack of creating his own shot, and the amount of shots he takes really concerns me. It is almost like I would rather see Songalia start because my eyes hurt when I see Webber struggle out there. On any other team with a halfway decent PF Webber would not start.

The amout of shots he takes is something of a concern on nights that he is not shooting well. But I don't see where u get the rebounding woos from. I mean that he is the leading rebounder on the team. And lack of creating shots, thats something pretty debatabe too. And Webber would start on most of the teams in NBA.
Its so weird, one bad nignt and people are ready to put the RIP tag on Webber.

 

[Stojakovic]

The amout of shots he takes is something of a concern on nights that he is not shooting well.

I think it's a concern night in and night out. He averages 20 shots per game in 35 minutes a game. Kobe, whom everyone on this forum refers to as selfish and as a "I have to take every shot" type player averages about 1.5 shots more than Webb per game in 8 more minutes a game.

Webber forces things too much, and it hasn't just been a problem this season.

 

[VF21]

I would venture to say that Webb handles the ball alot more than the players you mentioned as well. Basically the ball comes in to Webb and he either has to pass it or shoot it..........if no one is open or people are just standing around he needs to shoot the ball. Don't blame Webb, blame the offense that the Kings run. I don't know how many times I hear "MOVE" when I am at ARCO watching a game. The ball comes into Webb on the high post and everyone just freezes.

Thank you!!!!

In doing the PBP, there are numerous times when he gets the ball, looks to pass it and NO ONE has made much of an effort to get open. Yes, he sometimes does the quick jumpers (just like the rest of the shooters), but a lot of times he gets the ball, passes it, gets it back and has no choice but to shoot since his fellow teammates appear to be playing the Green Plastic Army Men game - you know, where their feet are attached to plastic stands and they cannot move unless a big hand from space comes down and slides them across the court?

Webber is by no means perfect, but to question his productivity on the floor on an ongoing basis is without basis in fact IMHO. If you look at each of the games, you'll see a couple of sub-par performances mingled among a whole lot of really good performances.

 

[Gary]

Than maybe they just need to let Bibby keep the ball and pass it to Peja to shoot the shot if nobody else is open. It makes more sense because Peja ius a better shooter...

 

[Gary]

Webber is by no means perfect, but to question his productivity on the floor on an ongoing basis is without basis in fact IMHO. If you look at each of the games, you'll see a couple of sub-par performances mingled among a whole lot of really good performances.

Fact? How much closer to fact is REAL LIFE STATS? I am not just throwing out number for the hell of it. He is probally the 10th best power forward in the league, yet he jacks them up like he is the #1 "go-to" guy in the whole league.

 

[VF21]

All I'm saying is there's a reason he jacks them up, at least part of the time. Does he do it too often? Sometimes. Is he left with no other choice? Sometimes.

I agree that Bibby often looks to Webber first, but that's not Webb's fault (if any fault needs to be laid at someone's feet). Webber can create a shot, where Pedja can't so that could be why Bibby goes more often to Webb. I do like it when DC runs the point, as they have the beautiful play where he goes to the cutting Pedja right out of the break and Pedja is able to get to the bucket almost every time. (Unfortunately, they did that last night and Pedja missed the easy lay-up.)

I'm not trying to anger you and get into a big argument over this. I was simply pointing out that the stats don't tell the whole story because they don't explain what was happening on the court when he took those shots. YES, he does take ill-adivsed shots at times. YES, there are times when I wish he would have looked around a little more before taking the shot but as Grant AND Jerry are quick to point out, you can't have him quit taking those open shots. Miller lets a lot of open looks go by and that drives me even more nuts.

You have the opinion Webber is struggling on an almost nightly basis. I have only seen a couple of games where he wasn't performing at a fully acceptable level. I suppose we shall simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[uolj]

I have a few concerns about Webber's current play. Granted, these aren't anything to get worked up over, but I agree with the general sentiment that he does take a few too many shots. I'd like to see him keep it to maybe two jumpers a quarter along with a few drives, post moves, etc. It seems Webber wants to be a stat stuffer (rebounds, assists) this year, but unless he focuses on that goal he reverts to his natural tendency to try to do it all himself on the offensive end (especially when others around him aren't producing).


What he should be doing is making a conscious effort early in the game to pass up less than perfect shot opportunities in favor of letting others like Stojakovic and even Miller get less than perfect looks. Then, when the 4th quarter rolls around he can go back to his more natural game and take the shots when he's got them. This will help get others involved and contributing early, will hopefully get the opponent to concentrate on other players defensively, and allow him to continue his clutch play late in the game.

 

[VF21]

The only problem is that you're saying Webber should try and change his game for three quarters and then revert back in the 4th.

Any time you start to restrict a player's choices (such as limiting him to a couple of jumpers a quarter) you reduce his effectiveness on the court. You can't tell someone who CAN hit the "less than perfect shot" not to take it and to pass it to someone like Miller who passes up wide open shots at inexplicable times for reasons I don't even think he knows...

Rather than say Webber should change, perhaps we should be focusing on the other players on the court who aren't doing all they can to get open so there IS another viable option. This has always been a problem with the Kings when Webber has been playing at a high level. They get the ball to him and then they stand around, waiting for him to create the shot and make the points. That is NOT Webber's fault; if anything, it's something RA really needs to emphasize during the times when the team is sitting around and watching the game tapes. Webber will try to get the score; that's his nature and that's what we want him to do. He will also get the ball to other players, if they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. (His assist numbers bear that out.)

Does Webber deserve some of this criticism? Most assuredly but it's not solely his to bear. The rest of the team has to quit standing around playing Green Plastic Army Men (which I mentioned in another thread) and be pro-active instead of reactive about each possession. If they keep moving, the ball gets passed and good things happen. The offense presents a much more balanced attack and we win more games.

VF21 steps down and drags soap box back into its little corner...

 

[HndsmCelt]

What I find both sad and hysterical about this thread is the assumption that IF Webber is taking too many shots the solution is for Pedja to take more. There is a very good shooter on the team that is getting/taking way too few shots and his name is not Chris or Pedja, it's Brad.

So far this season Webb has attempted 555 shots shooting 45%
Pedja has attempted 465 shooting 44%
Miller has only attempted 302 shooting 51%

Now you tell me what would help the team more a guy shooting slightly worse then Webber and getting nearly as many shots taking more? Or a guy who is shooting quite a bit better than both of them and who took a lot less shots, taking a few more?

If you ask me BOTH Pedja and Chriss should be looking to pass to the big man more and shoot a little less.

Put that in your Webber/Pedja homer pipes and smoke it!

 

[Kingsgurl]

Webber did attempt too many shots, last night. I don't like to see it, when he's missing he should try to get everyone else involved, then come back to it. I don't have as big a concern over the mindset he displayed of trying to get himself going or trying to carry the team as I do with our other big gun, who by the end of the 3rd quarter was passing up open looks and looking like he didn't WANT the ball. THAT is a huge concern to me.

 

[rhuber]

I propose that when webb has possession, he should float in fast circles above the court until a passing lane opens to teammates while they stand motionless in semi-athletic looking poses - and hope that they do something other than pass it straight back.

I'm kidding of course, but on many days (which happen to be the days when this type of issue comes to light), the above is exactly what the rest of the team appears to expect of him. I love this team, but more often than not, I see this as a team issue, not a webber issue. For the most part -- he seems to go to plan-B when his shots aren't falling... and cranks up plan-A when they are. God knows Bibby and Pedja have their share of nightmare games... so does webber.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Rather than say Webber should change, perhaps we should be focusing on the other players on the court who aren't doing all they can to get open so there IS another viable option. This has always been a problem with the Kings when Webber has been playing at a high level. They get the ball to him and then they stand around, waiting for him to create the shot and make the points. That is NOT Webber's fault; if anything, it's something RA really needs to emphasize during the times when the team is sitting around and watching the game tapes. Webber will try to get the score; that's his nature and that's what we want him to do. He will also get the ball to other players, if they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. (His assist numbers bear that out.)

BINGO!
There was no offensive flow from the starting unit out there last night for most of the game.
and Brad needs to TAKE those open jumpers. Perhaps he secretly reads the boards and is afraid he will come under the same sort of fire as Chris does

 

[HndsmCelt]

I propose that when webb has possession, he should float in fast circles above the court until a passing lane opens to teammates while they stand motionless in semi-athletic looking poses - and hope that they do something other than pass it straight back.

I'm kidding of course, but on many days (which happen to be the days when this type of issue comes to light), the above is exactly what the rest of the team appears to expect of him. I love this team, but more often than not, I see this as a team issue, not a webber issue. For the most part -- he seems to go to plan-B when his shots aren't falling... and cranks up plan-A when they are. God knows Bibby and Pedja have their share of nightmare games... so does webber.

Your point is right on that the other guys movement away from the ball is not what it could be (except Bibby). In some ways this is more troublesome for Pedja who has shown in the past 2 seasons really great movement away from the ball. Brad is not goint to be a cuter, BUT he and Bibby/Doug should run even more pick and rolls with the option back to Bad being excercised. Also I would love to see him fake and shoot ocasioaly instead of ALWAYS dropping off to the guy running behind him, usualy Bibby. This would keep Defense more honest and would give Brad more shots.

 

[profit]

Some nights Weber does push things and takes more shots than he should. However, as others have noted, a lot of that is that compounded by his teamates standing around.

Peja had a bad night last night so passing to him is no solution.

Brad should shot more, I thought a couple of times that he has been passing up some good shots.
Bottom line: When the Kings struggle on offense it is generally because they are not moving as well without the ball and that results in forced shots. Weber is one of the guys who can create his own shot and he is one of the main options on offense so if things get stagnate he is going to force things. His game has always been a little more highpost than lowpost and that has increased during his recovery. Really, I think this is more of a team issue than a Weber issue.

 

[VF21]

So basically we are pretty much in agreement that the rest of the team needs to quit playing Green Plastic Army Men™, right?