Dime Dropper
All-Star
On another note, make the same points with JT and Towns, given that the latter is unproven and therefore "uncertain".
Comparing WCS to JT
- Thread starter lawlman91
- Start date
Do me a favor and take the snark down just a bit. (She said AGAIN.)
When we acquired Cauley-Stein is irrelevant. The fact JT was the occupant of the 4 and most are now looking to WCS as a possible successor to that slot makes it a valid question. I truly do not understand why the OP is being attacked for what I obviously thought was a valid point. (If anything, maybe you guys should be gunning at me for daring to take the ridiculous post with the obvious agenda and putting it into its own thread.)
Kingsgurl
Starter
So, this is all YOUR fault?? All kidding aside, I do find it a bit hard to make comparisons between a 7 year veteran and a young guy we have yet to see on court, especially as they are so different in both who they are(were) as college players and what we are hoping(have seen) them to be on the court. JT did develop into a decent one on one defender (except for the fact that he never could break that have to put two hands on his man crap that was a weakness coming in) His help defense has always been weak, not from lack of effort (I don't think) but from lack of instinct. Offensively he, again, could not break that habit of HAVING to put the ball on the floor before going up. I see far more instinct (basketball IQ) and awareness in WCS, though he has little offensive polish.
I dislike comparisons such as this because it seems you must put one person down in order to build up another, even if that was not the intent. JT was a great guy, a nice kid. He did the best he could, suffered through the horror that we all did. As a 2nd or 3rd big off the bench, he would have been perfect. I wish him the best of luck (except, of course, for when they play us or the outcome effects us)
I can't say that WCS is an upgrade, he hasn't stepped foot on an NBA court yet. I can say that his skill set seems to be more complimentary to Cousins and, by extension, our needs, and he seems to have a greater instinct for the game. Athletically, he gets the nod, he is a freak.
I'm not even sure we could revisit this topic at the end of the year and just post rookie season stats and get an accurate comparison. WCS will impact games the way Jason never could (or even tried to) and much of WCS value will not even show up in an individual stat sheet (blocks, yes, but disruption, switching, help defense, altering shots/plays) Those are things I never expected from JT coming in as a rookie, but they are exactly what we need, and I DO expect them from WCS.
I dislike comparisons such as this because it seems you must put one person down in order to build up another, even if that was not the intent. JT was a great guy, a nice kid. He did the best he could, suffered through the horror that we all did. As a 2nd or 3rd big off the bench, he would have been perfect. I wish him the best of luck (except, of course, for when they play us or the outcome effects us)
I can't say that WCS is an upgrade, he hasn't stepped foot on an NBA court yet. I can say that his skill set seems to be more complimentary to Cousins and, by extension, our needs, and he seems to have a greater instinct for the game. Athletically, he gets the nod, he is a freak.
I'm not even sure we could revisit this topic at the end of the year and just post rookie season stats and get an accurate comparison. WCS will impact games the way Jason never could (or even tried to) and much of WCS value will not even show up in an individual stat sheet (blocks, yes, but disruption, switching, help defense, altering shots/plays) Those are things I never expected from JT coming in as a rookie, but they are exactly what we need, and I DO expect them from WCS.
KingsFanGER
Starter
I agree with Brick. WCS at least has one above average NBA skill. JT is average or below average in everything.
I understand, that he was a longterm Kings player and people like him, but I'm glad he is gone.
People will disagree with me, but JT is nothing more than a journeyman Pf/C. I would be suprised, if he beats Speights and Ezeli in the struggle for backup minutes in the Warriors system.
I understand, that he was a longterm Kings player and people like him, but I'm glad he is gone.
People will disagree with me, but JT is nothing more than a journeyman Pf/C. I would be suprised, if he beats Speights and Ezeli in the struggle for backup minutes in the Warriors system.
I liked JT and think he's a decent third big option but to me my question will always be his attitude, namely that he just seemed to complain a lot (on the court). Granted this came about surely by the frustrations of playing for a losing franchise that wasn't deserving of much respect on the court, but he often came across as a whiner. Hopefully WCS will not develop that trait. Honestly I hope JT overcomes that playing with a winning franchise. But he probably needed to move on because he just wasn't being done any favors in Sac.
Gliesian
Bench
JT is THE worst complainer we've had since I've been a fan. That being said, he got shafted in his early career by the refs. I think he could have scored a lot more if conditions were right too.
The problem is he developed a rep that became impossible to overcome. Cousins may have headed down the same trajectory but his talent was enough to overcome it, get him a spot on Team USA where he could repair his rep and get back into winning form. JT doesn't have that talent. WCS doesn't have Cousins's talent but he is walking into a much better situation. He also comes in with less expectations on the offensive end and a rep as a defensive specialist and the Kentucky pedigree which should give him a little more leeway as a rook than JT got.
I think we need to see who plays where and how the rotations are split up before we start comparing folks.
JT played primarily at PF. If we start Cousins at the 4 this year and KK starts at the 5, who are we comparing to who from last year?
While WCS adds shot blocking and will be a better perimeter and help defender, if he starts we can't put him on the star opposing big like we did JT - at least not as effectively. Which means that Cousins may draw more fouls vs. having JT taking on that duty.
I just think we need to see some preseason games and also see what Karl wants to do as far as rotations before we go down this rabbit hole with any seriousness.
JT played primarily at PF. If we start Cousins at the 4 this year and KK starts at the 5, who are we comparing to who from last year?
While WCS adds shot blocking and will be a better perimeter and help defender, if he starts we can't put him on the star opposing big like we did JT - at least not as effectively. Which means that Cousins may draw more fouls vs. having JT taking on that duty.
I just think we need to see some preseason games and also see what Karl wants to do as far as rotations before we go down this rabbit hole with any seriousness.
KingsFanGER
Starter
Why shouldnt we put Wcs against the opposing best big?
Outside of Griffin and Zbo there are no Star Bigs, who will overpower him in isolation plays. Most star bigs rely on the pick&roll/pop.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I guess we just love to argue about something, anything! Why don't we compare McLemore to Ray Allen. Oh wait, someone did. Look, JT at this point in time, is what he is. He's a finished product. I don't think anyone expects him to suddenly become David West. However, in the Warriors system, don't be surprised if he looks better than he did with us. Lets apply some logic to this debate. JT has been in the league for seven years. He's had all that time to develop and grow into what we see today. The fit may not have always been perfect, but he did get plenty of experience, and at times, a lot of minutes. My point is, he got his moment to shine. Right now, at this moment, he is what you see.
By comparison, at this moment, WCS is a lump of half coal and half diamond. Given a few more years to compress and develop, he may turn into a big beautiful diamond that will dazzle everyone. Or not! You can't logically compare what is, to what might be. Well you can, but it doesn't make any sense. JT is a racehorse that's proven. On occasion, against weaker competition, he'll come in second or third, but most of the time he's back with the rest of the pack in fifth or sixth place in a field of ten.
WCS is a racehorse that's young and inexperienced. He's full of spirit, and when under control, very fast. Given time, you can see the potential to be special. Right now, this year, WCS has the ability, despite his lack of experience, to go out and match, if not exceed everything JT is capable of doing. Will he? I think he will, and easily. JT is a Dodge truck! Solid and dependable. WCS is an Indy car. All he has to do is stay on the track, and he wins. But he's probably going to hit the wall a few times. He is after all, going at a speed that JT is unfamiliar with.
By comparison, at this moment, WCS is a lump of half coal and half diamond. Given a few more years to compress and develop, he may turn into a big beautiful diamond that will dazzle everyone. Or not! You can't logically compare what is, to what might be. Well you can, but it doesn't make any sense. JT is a racehorse that's proven. On occasion, against weaker competition, he'll come in second or third, but most of the time he's back with the rest of the pack in fifth or sixth place in a field of ten.
WCS is a racehorse that's young and inexperienced. He's full of spirit, and when under control, very fast. Given time, you can see the potential to be special. Right now, this year, WCS has the ability, despite his lack of experience, to go out and match, if not exceed everything JT is capable of doing. Will he? I think he will, and easily. JT is a Dodge truck! Solid and dependable. WCS is an Indy car. All he has to do is stay on the track, and he wins. But he's probably going to hit the wall a few times. He is after all, going at a speed that JT is unfamiliar with.
"Nothing more than a journeyman PF/C." You don't even have to rephrase it for it to be a compliment. My appraisal exactly, he has achieved being a journeyman NBA PF/C.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
So from what I'm reading from some of the posts, JT is better than WCS today. WCS may be better than JT in a few years. WCS is getting what would have been many of JT's minutes. If those premises hold true, then the addition of WCS and the subtraction of JT (all other factors being equal) is a net minus for the performance of this team next year. Correct?
We have NO IDEA how many minutes he will get (maybe KK chews up many of those, with Rudy playing lots of the 4?), whether he will be playing the 4 or the 5, and who he will be playing with on the court. This whole discussion is just ..... premature and taking stabs in the dark.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. I certainly didn't say that. My final statement was that I thought WCS would match, if not exceed JT's production overall. JT averaged around 9 to 10 points for his career. I think WCS will match that. He'll do it a different way, but that doesn't matter. Defensively, especially on the perimeter, WCS will be far superior to JT. There will be no comparison when it comes to protecting the rim. JT at the moment is a better man defender, but a lot of that comes from experience. Give WCS a year to learn his opposition, and I think he can be one of the best in the league.
Look, I don't want to tout WCS by denigrating JT. But the fact is, WCS is an entirely different breed. JT is a quarter horse, and WCS is a racehorse. Put JT on a PG and he's toast. Put Willie on a PG, and that PG has problems. Willie is a seven foot player with the agility and speed of a John Wall. We're comparing a Chevy to a Porsche. There is no comparison.
There are others besides those two who will gladly back down a rookie if he can't hold his ground. MGasol, Drummond, etc., etc., would also take advantage of that opportunity. He (likely) doesn't have the strength yet to compete with some of the big boys. Nothing wrong with that, as he will grow accustomed to it. But the first year especially will likely be ugly at times. That's why I think we will be seeing a lot of KK in there as well, especially to defend the best bigs.
I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion but more than that, I'm not sure the assumptions it is based on are accurate. Thompson is definitely better today than Cauley-Stein in some areas - physical strength, post play (though JT's not great here WCS is even less developed) rebounding, midrange shooting, man-to-man post defense, experience but it is also true that right now Cauley-Stein is better than Thompson in some areas. Namely, team defense, pick and roll defense, finishing near the basket, getting out in transition and weakside defense/rim protection. Cauley-Stein may end up being as good or better in some of the areas that are currently in Thompson's advantage and he may not. But the point is that they are different players with different strengths and weaknesses.
I'm also not sure how the minutes will break down. Thompson was the Kings starting PF last season. Will WCS start at PF? Or will Koufos and Gay eat up most of the minutes next to Cousins and Cauley-Stein brought along slowly? I don't know. Without knowing that it's hard to say whether Cauley-Stein help the Kings more than Thompson would in the same role. What the Kings will miss with JT is a guy who could guard the opposing team's best big. He guarded Howard, Griffin, Aldridge etc surprisingly well and didn't get enough credit for that. He is also a better rebounder than Cauley-Stein. What Cauley-Stein will give the team is an immediate upgrade in defending the pick and roll and protecting the basket. Two big need areas for the Kings. He'll also be a big who can really get out on the break and put pressure on opposing transition defenses, another thing the Kings have needed.
Looking at it in a vacuum Cauley-Stein addresses some known weaknesses but he will also put a lot more weight on Cousins' shoulders in terms of rebounding and defending opposing PFs and Cs. But that's also why I think comparing JT to Koufos makes a lot of sense. I think Koufos will really be filling JT's role and Cauley-Stein is essentially replacing Reggie Evans and in that sense giving a much needed dimension and versatility to the Kings frontcourt rotation.
But here's the other thing that makes it hard to compare what JT might have done to what Cauley-Stein may do for the Kings - the Kings coach is now George Karl. Thompson had a very down year offensively but under Mike Malone he was a key cog, a valuable role player. But for better or worse Karl doesn't want to play a half court, grind-it-out-defensively style. He wants a big who can run in transition and try to score an easy basket and if not then let Cousins trail the play for some secondary offense action. Cauley-Stein is a better fit for some of the things Karl wants out of his bigs.
That's exactly how I see it. It's also why I don't see Cauley-Stein starting any time soon. He'd be a target in the post. And like Tyson Chandler did (albeit with a higher learning curve coming straight out of HS) I think Cauley-Stein will eventually put on a bit more weight, but more importantly learn to use his length, footwork and timing to combat shorter but stronger guys. In the meantime I really think it's Koufos that takes JT's role. Sure we can say Thompson is a PF and Koufos is a C but they are essentially the same size and play a very similar role - especially next to Cousins. I'd give the nod to Thompson as a midrange shooter but last year Koufos shot pretty much the same percentage (albeit on a lot fewer shots over the season) from the wings and from the top of the key while shooting a much better percentage inside the paint.
And I think we'll see two guys in Koufos and Cauley-Stein that are much more willing to accept the roles the team wants them to play. I don't think that was ever going to be the case for Thompson. I like him a lot as a player and he seems like a very good dude as well, but he was also a guy who always seemed to bristle at being a role player. Honestly I kind of feel like he'd have been happier back home in Philadelphia possibly starting (at least until Okafor gets acclimated and/or Embiid gets cleared to play) and definitely putting up bigger numbers than being a sometimes used backup on a potential championship team in Golden State.
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IfAt1st
Starter
I agree, based on JT's own words and actions, I don't think he cares about winning - playing meaningful minutes (even on a losing team) is more important to him. TBH I think he's a loser and the team will be better without his attitude on and off the court.
He has terrible hands, no feel for where to be on the court and how to work with other players, and is slow physically and mentally.
Further, people assuming WCS will be bowled over by bigger players haven't been watching the NBA recently.
All it takes is a flop, and the bigger aggressive player will be called for the offensive foul a good % of the time.
Combine this modern bb fact with the prospect that WCS is virtually guaranteed to be a smarter player than JT, and use his fouls better than JT did (I'm sure we all remember the incalculable # of And-1's JT gave up over his career with stupid ticky-tack fouls as someone was going to the basket) and I see little chance this team will be worse off without JT (whether it's WCS or Koufos taking his minutes).
He has terrible hands, no feel for where to be on the court and how to work with other players, and is slow physically and mentally.
Further, people assuming WCS will be bowled over by bigger players haven't been watching the NBA recently.
All it takes is a flop, and the bigger aggressive player will be called for the offensive foul a good % of the time.
Combine this modern bb fact with the prospect that WCS is virtually guaranteed to be a smarter player than JT, and use his fouls better than JT did (I'm sure we all remember the incalculable # of And-1's JT gave up over his career with stupid ticky-tack fouls as someone was going to the basket) and I see little chance this team will be worse off without JT (whether it's WCS or Koufos taking his minutes).
K
KingMilz
Guest
But the addition of Kosta (who I thought we replaced JT with rather than WCS) is a immediate upgrade over JT because he does everything JT does with more shot blocking/better IQ. WCS is essentially something we have not had in a long time and that's a "capable"athletic big that controls the skies at both ends in that sense I don't see him as a replacement for anyone he's a new addition.
KingsFanGER
Starter
I think you overestimate the value of strength and body mass in todays game. But I agree, that we are in a comfortable situation, cause we can simply put Koufos into the game, when Willie has troubles.
I'm not a fan of a KK+Dmc tandem. And I think Willie has more benefits than risks on the court, if he really is the kind of smart and quick defender most analyst saw in him coming out of college.
Rooks typically don't get those calls. They may not call the flop, but they will swallow the whistle. We will just have to see how things are called once the games start. I hope you are right.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Thompson is very fast getting down the floor. In fact, that was his rep when he was drafted. If WCS is a better fit, it's not because Thomson couldn't get down the floor very fast.
I didn't know Koufas would be credible guarding Griffin or Aldridge. I'll have to watch out for that during the season. I could see him guarding Howard because he's not that great of threat anyway.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
The question then is: How would the combo of Thompson and Koufas compare to WCS and Koufas.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I think any combo of WCS and <fill in strong starting type big man> is likely to be better than JT and <fill in strong starting type big man> because again WCS has a portfolio. He has something he does really really well. And its a valuable something.
Now the flipside is that WCS has several things that at least at his age are potential weaknesses. I don't think any of them (jumper, rebounding) are as weak as his strengths are strong, but if you change the formula to WCS as lone bigman in a smallball set for instance vs. JT in the same situation...well you know, I think because WCS's shotblocking skill is precisely the one skill you'd love to have from a lone bigman out there with twerps, he might STILL be more useful. But I think its a closer situation if you don't have another big out there to kind of clean up after WCS for the things he does not do well.
The net still figures to favor WCS, and could REALLY favor WCS as far as fit for us. We've waited a long time to get that athletic offball shotblocker in here. The last legit NBAer we had to fill that bill was the one year of Keon Clark on perhaps our best ever Kings team thirteen years ago. The beauty of it is you can never have too many shotblockers. His positive skill absolutely adds to either Boogie or Koufos and helps every other King defensively. Jason's more pedestrian game and meat and potatoes contributions were not nearly such a boost and his full game would be more useful in a power player vacuum where he was the main big. And any offensive advantage was completely wasted given that it had to be sacrificed for the better offensive players. JT was forced into a smaller and smaller box largely just trying to play good defense on his man, but otherwise rarely being heard from. That sort of box comes much more naturally to WCS, and the one area truly open to him with us is precisely the area at which he excels and with which he can make a real impact.
ForlornKing
Starter
Willie looks he has bulked up since last season at Kentucky.
randymoss1881
Starter
Pictures or it didn't happen.
Very true. JT is a very mobile big, especially for a guy with the size to legitimately play both PF and C in the NBA. But WCS is a gazelle. It's the same reason I gave JT's mediocre to below average post up game the nod over WCS's very undeveloped post game.
It will be interesting to see exactly who Karl starts and who he assigns defensively. As I mentioned I liked JT because (1) he can be a good third big on a good team subbing at PF and C and (2) he played very good man defense on some of the best bigs in the league the last two seasons and last year especially. 30 games in last season the Kings starting five rated as statistically one of best in the league and I don't think JT gets enough credit for the role he played.
Will Cousins be forced to match up with the best offensive big? That's extra weight on him that he didn't have last year thanks to Thompson. Or will it be Koufos? He is a VERY good defender and almost a brick wall in the paint but I'm not sure the Kings want him chasing more mobile PFs around on the perimeter. Maybe Gay really does start at PF and he guards the opposing PFs and Boogie guards the centers. I think that works fine against perimeter oriented guys like Aldridge or Nowitzki but could be horrible vs Randolph or Griffin. There are also matchups where I think WCS would be the ideal pairing with Boogie against opposing starting frontcourts.
I wouldn't expect Karl to play musical chairs but as a thought exercise here's the duo I'd think would fare best against each team in the league.
ATL: Millsap/Horford - Gay/Cousins
BOS: Lee/Zeller - Cousins/Cauley-Stein
BRK: Young/Lopez - Gay/Cousins
CHA: Zeller/Jefferson - Cousins/Koufos
CHI: Gasol/Noah - either Cousins/Cauley-Stein or Cousins/Koufos
CLE: Love/Mozgov - Gay/Cousins
DAL: Nowitzki/Pachulia - Gay/Cousins or possibly Cauley-Stein/Cousins
DEN: Faried/Nurkic - I'd probably say Cousins/Koufos and let Nurkic and Koufos bang while Cousins abuses Faried
DET: Ilyasova/Drummond - Gay/Cousins
GSW: Green/Bogut tough choice but I think I might go Cousins/Koufos and force Green to defend a post option
HOU: Jones/Howard - Gay/Cousins
IND: Hill/Mahinmi or Turner - WCS/Cousins
LAC: Griffin/Jordan - hmm, probably Cousins/Koufos
LAL: Randle/Hibbert - Cousins/Cauley-Stein or Cousins/Koufos
MEM: Randolph/Gasol - Koufos/Cousins
MIA: Bosh/Whiteside - hmm Cousins/Koufos? Cousins/Cauley-Stein?
MIL: Parker/Monroe - Gay/Cousins
MIN: Garnett/Towns - Cauley-Stein/Cousins
NOP: Davis/Asik - Cousins/Koufos or Cauley-Stein/Cousins
NYK: Williams or Porzingis/Lopez - Gay/Cousins
OKC: Ibaka/Kanter - Cauley-Stein/Cousins or maybe Gay/Cousins
ORL: Gordon or Frye/Vucevic - Gay/Cousins or WCS/Cousins
PHI: Noel/Okafor - Cousins/Koufos or maybe WCS/Cousins
PHX: Morris or Teletovic/Chandler - Gay/Cousins
POR: Davis or Vonleh/Plumlee - Probably Cousins/Koufos though I'm not sure it matters
SAS: Aldridge/Duncan - Cousins/Koufos
TOR: Patterson/Valanciunas - probably Gay/Cousins
UTA: Favors/Gobert - Cousins/Cauley-Stein?
WAS: Nene/Gortat - Cousins/Koufos
ForlornKing
Starter
Hoovtrain
All-Star
While i think KK is a more accurate comparison, as others have commented on, i can understand the WCS comparison as well...but i think clearly that WCS is going to bring a much more dynamic presence to the Kings than JT...and clearly this will be on D. Watching him in the preseason i was very excited to see how he moved up and down the floor, how fluid and versatile he was in moving around on defense guarding multiple positions and of course his shot blocking/altering ability. He is just a really live body. His raw offensive game notwithstanding, i really expect him to come in and make a sizable contribution on D immediately. I also like that they now seemingly have a pass first PG that should be able to help his offensive games with lobs and well placed passes to help play to his strengths (i.e. running the floor etc).
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I don't see how WCS has a portfolio of anything yet in the NBA. Thompson has a portfolio, although I agree it consists of just some decent meat and potato stocks. WCS hasn't earned a penny stock in the NBA as yet.
