Comparing WCS to JT

#1
Might not be this year but when WCS is ready to dominate defensively him and cousins will form the best frontline defensively in the league.
I like to measure WCS in relation to JT, and this is what I have in my knowledge bank so far:

WCS:

(arguable) good positioning instincts
(almost certain) good shot blocking instincts
(uncertain) post defense
(uncertain) mid-range shooting

JT:

(certain) good positioning instincts
(certain) not a shot blocker, but can disturb penetrators
(certain) above average post defender
(certain) respectable mid-range shooting
 
K

Kingsguy881

Guest
#2
I like to measure WCS in relation to JT, and this is what I have in my knowledge bank so far:

WCS:

(arguable) good positioning instincts
(almost certain) good shot blocking instincts
(uncertain) post defense
(uncertain) mid-range shooting

JT:

(certain) good positioning instincts
(certain) not a shot blocker, but can disturb penetrators
(certain) above average post defender
(certain) respectable mid-range shooting
Arguing a 7 year vet vs a rookie who has yet to play is insanity.
 
#3
I like to measure WCS in relation to JT, and this is what I have in my knowledge bank so far:

WCS:

(arguable) good positioning instincts
(almost certain) good shot blocking instincts
(uncertain) post defense
(uncertain) mid-range shooting

JT:

(certain) good positioning instincts
(certain) not a shot blocker, but can disturb penetrators
(certain) above average post defender
(certain) respectable mid-range shooting
You forget to mention that WCS is a good pick & roll and help defender, while JT is not.
 
#4
Clearly no agenda here :rolleyes:

How about rating some of the following:

Athleticism
Hands
Size/Length
Attitude on court (ie constant whining)

I could list more, but what's the point honestly?

I liked JT, but WCS brings much more of what we need, even if he doesn't bring it in his rookie season. JT was a solid big, but certainly not without his flaws. I'm delighted he's on the Warriors now, he's one of the good guys and deserves it. But comparing him to WCS (let's be honest, in an attempt to discredit WCS) is dumb on all kinds of levels for an absolute multitude of reasons.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#5
You forget to mention that WCS is a good pick & roll and help defender, while JT is not.
That right there is is a rather huge deal...and also forgot to mention the ability to guard multi-positions and get out on the FB. Those 3 things and the off-ball shotblocking are what's going to separate WCS from lots of solid post-defenders like JT.

Different skill sets.
 
#6
Arguing a 7 year vet vs a rookie who has yet to play is insanity.
But they are both there, they both wifi play in November. Why not compare their play? In Nvember Cauley-Stein won't be theoretical any more. In WCS we have gained great potential and in JT we have lost a lot of real achievement and experience.
 
#7
But they are both there, they both wifi play in November. Why not compare their play? In Nvember Cauley-Stein won't be theoretical any more. In WCS we have gained great potential and in JT we have lost a lot of real achievement and experience.
Cool. Let's compare rookie Kobe to current current JR Smith! JR produces more RIGHT NOW! I'm short-sighted, lets take the guy who scores more points RIGHT NOW! Because who gives a **** about fit or future, right?

Yay for reasoning and solid arguments!
 
#8
I like to measure WCS in relation to JT, and this is what I have in my knowledge bank so far:

WCS:

(arguable) good positioning instincts
(almost certain) good shot blocking instincts
(uncertain) post defense
(uncertain) mid-range shooting

JT:

(certain) good positioning instincts
(certain) not a shot blocker, but can disturb penetrators
(certain) above average post defender
(certain) respectable mid-range shooting
Measuring the current JT (who we've seen play regular season games in this league for some time now) to the current WCS (who we have yet to see play a regular season game) is pretty much down right ludicrous. Comparing JT's rookie year to WCS's rookie year next summer will not be pretty much down right ludicrous. OR, comparing JT right after he was drafted by the Kings (before he played a regular season game) to WCS now will not be pretty much down right ludicrous.
 
#9
Thompson has been playing the Warriors four times a year, and ''that's going to make it that much sweeter when I play Sacramento this year.''
 
#10
4 years out of Rider compared to 3 years out of Kentucky one game removed from a perfect season and a national championship. Im not a member of the "but JT is a good guy fan club"
6PTS 6 REBS and .7 BLOCKS last season in year 7 for a 6'11 250LB guy. We couldn't get rid of him without packaging draft picks going out with him. He can't finish around the basket or set a screen to save his life.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#15
It's being implied that you have an agenda because the comparison is completely pointless (and, IMHO, stupid). You could have given your "honest assessment" of Cauley-Stein without comparing him to Thompson. There is no legitimate reason to compare the two players.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#16
People are misunderstanding. I would rather have WCS than JT because of his blocking ability and youth. How come when I list my own honest assessment of the two players, that it's implied that I have an agenda? What a shame.
One thing I've learned over the years on this forum, is that you have to be perfectly clear about the meaning of your post. You can't leave room for interpretation, because someone will. I do think the comparison is ill advised. They are two entirely different kind of players. I was a fan of JT's at Rider, but if I'm honest, he never quite lived up to my personal expectations. I admit that changing coaches every five minutes didn't help him, but at some point in time, your talent has to rise to the top. JT is a hard worker, but unfortunately he now comes with a label that says journeyman on it. His chance to be more than that has passed him by.

WCS on the other hand, is still in the potential stage of his career, and frankly, if you want to compare them at the same point in time, Willie's potential far exceeds that of JT. WCS will probably be the most athletic big man in the NBA when he finally sets foot on the floor. If you think he looks fast on television running the court, you ought to see him in person. Now whether his potential translates into more than that, remains to be seen. Sometimes, instead of looking at a players ceiling, you need to look at his floor. JT's floor would have been to be out of the NBA in three or four years. WCS's floor is to be a good shotblocker, and good overall defender. I think he can be more that that, but time will tell.
 
#17
It's being implied that you have an agenda because the comparison is completely pointless (and, IMHO, stupid). You could have given your "honest assessment" of Cauley-Stein without comparing him to Thompson. There is no legitimate reason to compare the two players.
Well to his defense most posters around here seems to want WCS to start next to Cousins and JT played that role last year... there is a thousand posts here that compared Belinelli to Nik and that is similiar.

I disagree with his assessment but it's not like no one compared the two before.
 
#18
It's being implied that you have an agenda because the comparison is completely pointless (and, IMHO, stupid). You could have given your "honest assessment" of Cauley-Stein without comparing him to Thompson. There is no legitimate reason to compare the two players.
I disagree. A great way to assess something is to compare it to something else. What you compare it to also affects the quality of the assessment. I believe that comparing last year's Sacramento Kings big man to this year's Sacramento Kings big man will give us a good idea of what we are going to get this year, since the core of the Sacramento Kings team is about the same. We'll get a better picture of what we will get than if we compare using the big men of other teams, unless if you make the argument otherwise.

It's insulting that you put "honest assessment" in quotation marks, as if it weren't really honest.
 
#19
It's being implied that you have an agenda because the comparison is completely pointless (and, IMHO, stupid). You could have given your "honest assessment" of Cauley-Stein without comparing him to Thompson. There is no legitimate reason to compare the two players.
Except that we have gained one and lost the other. I think most on here agree we have gained some great potential in WCS, and that we have lost an experienced, very experienced basketball player that has a lot of value left in him. JT is the best of those that are gone. Comparing the two of them is a simple plus and minus affair- one is here now and one is gone now. JT's value is a key factor in how we have acquired the FA's.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#20
two completely different players...JT is a big body, not lengthy but just big and takes up some space. Cauley Stein is a skinny athlete with freakish arms and wingspan.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#21
Well to his defense most posters around here seems to want WCS to start next to Cousins and JT played that role last year... there is a thousand posts here that compared Belinelli to Nik and that is similiar.
Those posts are stupid, too.

Except that we have gained one and lost the other. I think most on here agree we have gained some great potential in WCS, and that we have lost an experienced, very experienced basketball player that has a lot of value left in him. JT is the best of those that are gone. Comparing the two of them is a simple plus and minus affair- one is here now and one is gone now. JT's value is a key factor in how we have acquired the FA's.
Except that Cauley-Stein was not acquired via free agency, so the comparison still doesn't hold up.

If he'd tried to compare Thompson with Koufus, it still would have been a poor comparison, but it would have been decidedly less poor.


I disagree. A great way to assess something is to compare it to something else...
That's a horrible way to assess something. That's the first step on the road to Unrealistic Expectations City.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#23
Here's the thing boiled down: WCS has the potential to be dynamic, a factor. Jason rarely was, and in recent years, that one out of the blue 20/20 goodbye kiss aside, had really settled back into largely being just a pretty good man defender you bought time with.

JT is a lot of ways is actually a good guy to compare almost any NBA big to, because JT might be the league's most mediocre big. He's right near the centerline at just about everything:

-- slightly subpar scorer (more subpar in Boogie's shadow), but a far cry from a Biyombo. Has the little jumper. An occasional post move.
-- slightly above average rebounder, but only rarely a factor
-- entirely average passer/ballhandler. Again not a Biyombo. Also not a Gasol. Can make an occasional good pass.
-- entirely mediocre rim protector, no impact, but not a Love like stub
-- above average man defender, but comes and goes

And deadly consistent. Aside from Boogie eating up the frontcourt touches, JT, a few refinements aside, has always been the same guy.

Per 36 min:
08-09: 14.2pts (.540TS%) 9.5reb 1.5ast 0.7stl 0.9blk 2.3TO 4.9Fl
09-10: 14.3pts (.518TS%) 9.7reb 1.8ast 0.6stl 1.1blk 2.1TO 4.3Fl
10-11: 13.7pts (.533TS%) 9.4reb 1.9ast 0.6stl 0.9blk 2.0TO 4.4Fl
11-12: 12.7pts (.558TS%) 9.6reb 1.7ast 0.9stl 1.0blk 1.5TO 3.2Fl
12-13: 14.0pts (.533TS%) 8.6reb 1.3ast 0.8stl 1.0blk 1.6TO 3.6Fl
13-14: 10.5pts (.523TS%) 9.5reb 1.0ast 0.6stl 1.0blk 1.7TO 4.5Fl
14-15: 8.9pts (.500TS%) 9.6reb 1.5ast 0.6stl 1.0blk 1.5TO 4.3Fl

you can see the offense dying off in recent years, a slight improvement on the youthful turnovers, which is to be expected (and might also have to do with the fewer touches). An improvement a few years back in the foul rate, but it bounced back up I think when Malone got him trying harder on defense. But in general absolutely steady as she goes. He's the great neutral. The great placeholder. Some years he's made us better, some not, depending entirely on surrounding personnel in the chaos.


So given The Great Placeholder, you can riff off of that pretty easily with any new player.

in Summer League WCS put up:
22.4min 11.4pts (.512 .000 .650) 5.4reb 0.6ast 04stl 2.8blk 0.8TO 3.2FL

now that's summer league. The numbers won't directly translate (nor will they catch his ability as a team defender/harasser), but I think a few lessons can be learned:

-- WCS is decently smart and sophisticated for a rookie.
-- he's not going to be asked to score at that rate for us with Boogie out there. In fact there was no particular display of faceup shooting, so as expected we are going to lose a bit of that, but only a bit (JT averaged 8.9pts per 36, there's not much to lose). But he's going to get hoops just from running the floor and hustle plays. Could easily match JT's 9-10pts per46 of the last few years, and will probably do it more efficiently, as his .512FG% was pulled down by attempts to post in SL. As just a dunker he could be 10pts/36 on .600FG%. Like JT he may add a post move occasionally, but nothing worth worrying about.
-- the 5.4reb in 22.4min translates to 8.7reb per 36 min, and that was in SL. There will be some falloff there from JT I think. JT was slightly above average, Trill may well be slightly below average. Perhaps a 7-8 per 36 type rebounder. I doubt its enough to really worry about given JT's modest numbers, but its maybe what you watch.
-- he's likely to be a similar level passer. The JT once was a guard thing might give Jason a slight edge, but again no real impact, and WCS seems smart enough to make an occasional saavy pass too. Close enough and such a small part of their games you can safely call it a wash.
-- he rarely turned it over in summer league. Given his off the ball game there's a good chance turnovers won't be any kind of negative factor for him the way they could be for Jason.
-- 3.2Fls in 22.4 translates to roughly 5.0Fls per 36. Now SL is a different animal when it comes to fouls, but that still would not be a huge surprise for an active defensive rookie. I would not expect WCS to be terribly out of JTs range as a fouler, either better or worse.
-- and then of course there's the shotblocking, and the overall defensive activity and length. And this is of course the huge key. He's got a calling card. if you lined the two guys up you might guess:

Scoring: JT = WCS
Shooting: JT > WCS
Passing: JT = WCS
Rebounding: JT >> WCS
Turnovers: WCS > JT
Fouls: JT = WCS
Man Defense: JT > WCS
Help Defense: WCS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JT

And in the end its having that portfolio which could make this a blowout comparison. Great players win, or players that are great at something. WCS is great at something. JT is just a big body eating minutes. Now if WCS turns out to be horribly deficient at some part of the game then if it got bad enough it could outweight the thing he's great at. But he doesn't appear to have that weakness. The rebounding is going to be the biggest thing to watch. but it more figures to be subpar then terrible, and some of that subpar might be attributable to the good things he's doing as a help defender, and he's going to be playing alongside DeMarcus Cousins and Kosta Koufos who will both thump you on the glass.

JT last year put up:
24.6min 6.1pts (.470 .000 .622) 6.5reb 1.0ast 0.4stl 0.7blk 1.0TO 3.0Fl

given those same min this year a Cauley Stein line might read:
24.6min 6.5pts (.565 .000 .650) 4.9reb 0.8ast 0.5stl 1.7blk 0.7TO 3.4Fl

given low starters minutes it might end up:
30.5min 9.7pts (.565 .000 .650) 6.9reb 1.3ast 0.7stl 2.3blk 1.0TO 4.3Fl

think John Salley maybe.
 
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#24
How many shots will WCS challenge that are not official "Blocks". How about the drives to the hoop that never happen because WCS is playing goalie?

I mean I like JT, I wish him well in GSW, unless he is playing the Kings, then it is ON:mad:
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
#25
My biggest take is the role that is needed on this team. JT was one of my favs I have been a JT apologist for years. His talents did not correlate to what was needed beside Demarcus. We need a help defender and shot blocker. Also WCS can fill the Derek Williams ally oop role, I mention this because we have a pg and center that will have their eye out for those with WCS. Now if we are talking about a third big off the bench that can hold down the fort at both PF & C that right there fits JT perfect. I wish he were still here for that. Although we did upgrade with Koufos. Off subject I am leery of Acy as the 4th big
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#26
It's being implied that you have an agenda because the comparison is completely pointless (and, IMHO, stupid). You could have given your "honest assessment" of Cauley-Stein without comparing him to Thompson. There is no legitimate reason to compare the two players.
I beg to differ with both you and Dime Dropper. I didn't see any bias or agenda in the OP, who I think was merely comparing the person who filled the position with the person who is replacing him.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#28
But Cauley-Stein isn't replacing Thompson; we already had Cauley-Stein when we traded Thompson. We could have kept both of them. If anything, the person replacing Thompson is Koufos. Why isn't he comparing Thompson to Koufos?
WCS is much more likely to be playing the JT role. Another long combo PF/C type to try to play alongside Cousins.

If Koufos ends up winning that role, by merit or history with Karl, and we actually do go two centers out there, then I suppose Koufos/JT would be warranted. Easier too since you can just line up their NBA work.
 
#29
People are misunderstanding. I would rather have WCS than JT because of his blocking ability and youth. How come when I list my own honest assessment of the two players, that it's implied that I have an agenda? What a shame.
Maybe you would have had a point if you didn't pinpoint specific areas where JT has an advantage (at least in terms of being proven)? What a shame.

Hard to believe you're genuine given your OP is completely ridiculous, and biased by all accounts.
 
#30
By the same logic, let's compare Kevin Martin and Ben McLemore:

Defense: Ben
Athleticism: Ben
Shooting form: Ben
Name sexiness: Ben

Forget evertyhing else, lets choose certain traits that apparently don't prove an agenda. Completely unbiased. Obviously.