[NBA] Comments that don't warrant a thread (OCT)

[Capt. Factorial]

This feels predicated on the concept that scoring is always the priority. That's what you mean with your #1-#5 roles isn't it?

Not at all. I just mean in terms of overall contribution. And it's not about building a defensive team, or an offensive team, it's just about building a winning team however that works.

Clifford is mostly unknown, on both ends, so quite a lot of projection is involved there

And my contention regarding Clifford is that as of now the level of projection to even have him mentioned as a rotation piece on a contender is wild, wild, wild. Not impossible, not even improbable that he fits in for some role, be it bench or otherwise. Heck, he could turn out to be the greatest player in NBA history! But waaaaaaay too much projection for having played one NBA game.

Keegan may not be elite as a wing defender, but he's just one notch below that which is still pretty damn good and he's looked effective against PGs, SGs, SFs, and PFs so his versatility alone already makes his defense a major asset. What I really like about Keegan offensively is that he doesn't turn the ball over. He may never come close to reaching his college scoring output in the NBA (personally I think he is capable of exactly that and it is roster composition holding him back but that is speculation not fact) but even as a 20ppg guy who we might think of as a third option, he doesn't come with the drawbacks that most high level scorers have. The only knock on him right now is his inability to draw fouls at a rate expected of a first or second option scorer. If he solves that, I have no problem writing him in as a solid #2.

And I'm going to stick with my argument that if Keegan is the second-biggest overall contributor on your team, you're really not going to be a contender. Third, yep, can see it. Second, nope. You just need two star-level players above Keegan's level to get there.

Where we come to a road block is with Sabonis. If the goal is to build a top 10 defense, can you do that with Sabonis as your anchoring C? To me he's always been more of a PF except against certain matchups. But mobility wise he matches up better at C which puts him in Tweener territory. His rebounding is a bit of an X factor which leaves open a window of hope. If we get a truly exceptional defender who plays either C or PF and then Sabonis is just there to cut off the roll guy and clean up the boards I can be talked into keeping him as the weakest link in the defense. But options for finding that defensive anchor are pretty limited.

I think we can accept that there are different ways to build an NBA contender. If you're going to build around Sabonis, you're not going to be building a team that has a stifling paint defense. You just aren't. You have to pick another way. Fortunately, Sabonis is an outstanding rebounder, a very good and efficient scorer, and a very good playmaker. He can very easily be one of the two star players that slot in above Keegan in the contribution list - but yes, that does limit the way you construct your team.

If you are dead-set on "must-be-greatest-defensive-team-ever-or-bust" then...well, we're already in blow-it-up territory for sure. And Domas has to go. If you're willing to explore other means - and for the love of all that is holy I don't mean getting more high-scoring, no-defense SGs to add to our list!!! - then selling on Sabonis seems like shooting yourself in the foot. You had a #2 guy, but you let him go because you weren't creative enough to build around him, and you just gave up and started over. Add 3-5 years to the purgatory, I guess.

This is what I've got penciled in now as our projectable depth:

PG: Nique Clifford (Bench: Devin Carter)
SG: Keon Ellis
SF: Keegan Murray
PF: ??
C: ?? (Bench: Dylan Cardwell, Maxime Reynaud)

This is...bleak. Keegan is the only guy close to a sure thing on this entire depth chart (and again, I think his ceiling is #3). We're relying on Nique and his one game of NBA experience taking a Hali turn, and we're relying on two more guys on the frontline that have as of yet also shown exactly nothing. You need a superstar PF (maybe Cam Boozer could eventually fill that role?) and a #2 guy to slot in at C (no clue who or how) and a bunch of luck on top of that.

This is why I would really like to keep Domas (and if we can find a way to make the role work, LaVine) so we aren't just going back to basically square one.

Tatum and Brown are the absolute ceiling of what we hope to get from Murray and Clifford but even if we get 70% of those guys we're at least a young and exciting team that competes hard and could win a playoff series. Frankly, that would be good enough to keep me happy at this point.

I agree that Tatum and Brown are the absolute ceiling of Murray/Clifford. But if Murray/Clifford come in at 70% of that - if! - that's still those guys being your #3/#4 (#2/#3 tops, but...), and you need two stars ahead of them. In the NBA, what I would consider a 30% drop off from a star is just not a star anymore.

 

[KainLear]

I think we can accept that there are different ways to build an NBA contender. If you're going to build around Sabonis, you're not going to be building a team that has a stifling paint defense. You just aren't. You have to pick another way. Fortunately, Sabonis is an outstanding rebounder, a very good and efficient scorer, and a very good playmaker. He can very easily be one of the two star players that slot in above Keegan in the contribution list - but yes, that does limit the way you construct your team.

Just for fun, let’s imagine building a team around Sabonis…

His ability to facilitate from the post or high‑post gives Sacramento a unique playmaking hub. Surrounding him with shooters, switchable defenders, and a true lead guard would let the team fully exploit pace and space — kind of like a Mike Brown system with an OG Anunoby–type at the 3.

To me, the key would be adding a 3‑and‑D wing who can guard multiple positions and stretch the floor. Even just that would balance the roster quite a bit, add more depth and defensive versatility, and they would match up better in the playoffs.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Just for fun, let’s imagine building a team around Sabonis…

His ability to facilitate from the post or high‑post gives Sacramento a unique playmaking hub. Surrounding him with shooters, switchable defenders, and a true lead guard would let the team fully exploit pace and space — kind of like a Mike Brown system with an OG Anunoby–type at the 3.

To me, the key would be adding a 3‑and‑D wing who can guard multiple positions and stretch the floor. Even just that would balance the roster quite a bit, add more depth and defensive versatility, and they would match up better in the playoffs.

They just gave Murray a big contract to be that guy

 

[SacTownKid]

A solid comparison for Keon Ellis would be Alex Caruso. Both undrafted high-energy wing with strong defensive instincts and hustle, Ellis shot above 40% from 3 last season.

With more time and development, he could settle into a Caruso-type role: not necessarily gonna carry you through thick and thin, but a key piece of a team's rotation.

Keon is way more like KCP IMO. Carter physically plays defense a lot more like Caruso. Caruso has guarded centers at times. Keon is essentially a defender that plays the ball almost exclusively. If a bigger or stronger player goes at him he'll try and avoid contact and attempt to strip the ball. Carter plays with his chest, Keon plays with his hands. This is why I think in theory they'd make a great combo since they do what they do in different ways. I posted this clip before, this little bit really explains it well and shows back to back examples of their defensive styles.

 

[Sherds]

Spurs / Heat pre-game show dude hyping it up as a "finals re-match" is a bit of a stretch .

 

[hrdboild]

Not at all. I just mean in terms of overall contribution. And it's not about building a defensive team, or an offensive team, it's just about building a winning team however that works.


And my contention regarding Clifford is that as of now the level of projection to even have him mentioned as a rotation piece on a contender is wild, wild, wild. Not impossible, not even improbable that he fits in for some role, be it bench or otherwise. Heck, he could turn out to be the greatest player in NBA history! But waaaaaaay too much projection for having played one NBA game.


And I'm going to stick with my argument that if Keegan is the second-biggest overall contributor on your team, you're really not going to be a contender. Third, yep, can see it. Second, nope. You just need two star-level players above Keegan's level to get there.


I think we can accept that there are different ways to build an NBA contender. If you're going to build around Sabonis, you're not going to be building a team that has a stifling paint defense. You just aren't. You have to pick another way. Fortunately, Sabonis is an outstanding rebounder, a very good and efficient scorer, and a very good playmaker. He can very easily be one of the two star players that slot in above Keegan in the contribution list - but yes, that does limit the way you construct your team.

If you are dead-set on "must-be-greatest-defensive-team-ever-or-bust" then...well, we're already in blow-it-up territory for sure. And Domas has to go. If you're willing to explore other means - and for the love of all that is holy I don't mean getting more high-scoring, no-defense SGs to add to our list!!! - then selling on Sabonis seems like shooting yourself in the foot. You had a #2 guy, but you let him go because you weren't creative enough to build around him, and you just gave up and started over. Add 3-5 years to the purgatory, I guess.


This is...bleak. Keegan is the only guy close to a sure thing on this entire depth chart (and again, I think his ceiling is #3). We're relying on Nique and his one game of NBA experience taking a Hali turn, and we're relying on two more guys on the frontline that have as of yet also shown exactly nothing. You need a superstar PF (maybe Cam Boozer could eventually fill that role?) and a #2 guy to slot in at C (no clue who or how) and a bunch of luck on top of that.

This is why I would really like to keep Domas (and if we can find a way to make the role work, LaVine) so we aren't just going back to basically square one.


I agree that Tatum and Brown are the absolute ceiling of Murray/Clifford. But if Murray/Clifford come in at 70% of that - if! - that's still those guys being your #3/#4 (#2/#3 tops, but...), and you need two stars ahead of them. In the NBA, what I would consider a 30% drop off from a star is just not a star anymore.

I'm not dead set on building around defense being the only way, I was willing to wait and see with the Beam Team despite my initial skepticism that a winning team could be built around Sabonis as the star C. But that strategy does seem to fit the personnel we have now -- and the goal is to be elite at something. Ellis, Clifford, Carter, Murray is at baseline a pretty stifling perimeter defensive group. We need at least one more strong wing defender or point of attack defender (Carter could fill one of these roles), and then both front court spots -- which is a lot to figure out. But they don't all have to come from the draft.

I just think we're timed out on building a team around Sabonis. If it doesn't happen immediately, like a 3/4 roster turnover this summer, then we're entering the dangerous area of having one proven star player on a contract that is running out who is at the point in his career where all he cares about is competing for a championship. And also there's the specter of age-related decline as well. If we're not a contender now, and probably won't be barring someone sprinkling LaVine with magic pixie dust that transforms him into a league-average defender, then we have one very valuable asset which is about to decline in value and no real chance of winning with the group around him.

I'm far more interested in projected future production than I am in proven commodities. LaVine, DeRozan, and Sabonis all may have All Star accolades in their past but it's not unreasonable to project that their best years are already behind them. Keon Ellis had the same WS/48 as DeRozan last season (.122 and .123 respectively) and Keegan Murray's three year average of .088 is the same as LaVine with the Kings last season (.086). Considering both of these guys are age 25, they're on the good side of the bell curve (the side going up) while DeRozan and LaVine are on the down slope. If we target the right player in a Sabonis trade and make a smart lottery selection in next year's draft, the roster may already be better than it is now.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Kalkbrenner is 27-30 from the field for the season. 21-27 in the preseason. It’s like the Jr Uh Oh push shot but from anywhere within 6 feet and he is 7’1

 

[kingsboi]

I see Kuzma is going for the Rikers Island inmate look this season

 

[Tetsujin]

https://bsky.app/profile/mcsweeneys.net%2Fpost%2F3m4caqfp6o22n

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1983969067905249323