I think it was a tad unfair to compare Jordan, in his seventh year in the league, to a rookie who hadn't even played one game in the league yet. How about we compare their stats from the combine.
Jordan: 6'9.75" without shoes, 6'11" with shoes, 250 lbs, 9'5.5" standing reach, 26" no step vert, 30.5" max vert
Willie: 6'11.25" without shoes, 7'0.5" with shoes, 242 lbs, 9'3" standing reach, 31.0" no step vert, 37.0" max vert
In Jordan's freshman, and only year at Texas A&M he averaged 7.9 ppg. In Willie's freshman year at Kentucky, he averaged 8.3 ppg.
As you can see, Webber didn't have a freaking clue what he was talking about if your comparing apples to apples. Lets see where Willie is in his seventh year in the league. There's no doubt that Willie has to get stronger, and learn to rebound better. But he's not that far from where Jordan was in his first couple of years in the league.
How about Tyson Chandler. His rookie year in the league he averaged 19:33 mpg, 6.1 ppg, and 4.8 rpg. No great shakes there. How about his combine results.
Chandler: 6'11" W/O shoes, 7'0.5" W/shoes, 224 lbs, 9'3" standing reach, 31.0" no step vert, 33.5" max vert. And we thought Willie was skinny. Chandler turned out OK don't you think? I remember people talking about how Chandler gets pushed around in the paint and how he needed to get stronger and rebound better. Those things don't happen overnight.
Jordan: 6'9.75" without shoes, 6'11" with shoes, 250 lbs, 9'5.5" standing reach, 26" no step vert, 30.5" max vert
Willie: 6'11.25" without shoes, 7'0.5" with shoes, 242 lbs, 9'3" standing reach, 31.0" no step vert, 37.0" max vert
In Jordan's freshman, and only year at Texas A&M he averaged 7.9 ppg. In Willie's freshman year at Kentucky, he averaged 8.3 ppg.
As you can see, Webber didn't have a freaking clue what he was talking about if your comparing apples to apples. Lets see where Willie is in his seventh year in the league. There's no doubt that Willie has to get stronger, and learn to rebound better. But he's not that far from where Jordan was in his first couple of years in the league.
How about Tyson Chandler. His rookie year in the league he averaged 19:33 mpg, 6.1 ppg, and 4.8 rpg. No great shakes there. How about his combine results.
Chandler: 6'11" W/O shoes, 7'0.5" W/shoes, 224 lbs, 9'3" standing reach, 31.0" no step vert, 33.5" max vert. And we thought Willie was skinny. Chandler turned out OK don't you think? I remember people talking about how Chandler gets pushed around in the paint and how he needed to get stronger and rebound better. Those things don't happen overnight.
I didn't go looking for "gaudy nights," but here's a partial list of players who have put up a triple double in the last six years, that are currently out of the league:
Tony Wroten* (18p/10r/11a - 13 Nov 2013 )
Terrence Williams* (27p/11r/10a - 09 Apr 2010 )
Ben Uzoh* (12p/11r/12a - 26 Apr 2012 )
Jordan Crawford** (11p/11r/10a - 29 Nov 2013 )
Grevis Vasquez (21p/11r/12a - 08 Feb 2013 )
* - denotes players who have played fewer than 200 career NBA games (must have been eligible to have played at least 200 career NBA games)
** - denotes player who has had multiple career triple doubles
Tony Wroten* (18p/10r/11a - 13 Nov 2013 )
Terrence Williams* (27p/11r/10a - 09 Apr 2010 )
Ben Uzoh* (12p/11r/12a - 26 Apr 2012 )
Jordan Crawford** (11p/11r/10a - 29 Nov 2013 )
Grevis Vasquez (21p/11r/12a - 08 Feb 2013 )
* - denotes players who have played fewer than 200 career NBA games (must have been eligible to have played at least 200 career NBA games)
** - denotes player who has had multiple career triple doubles
I get your point but Chandler came into the league straight out of highschool and Jordan only had one year of college. It wouldn't be fair to compare a teenager's rookie year to a grown man's. By age 23, Both Chandler and Jordan had established themselves as key pieces of the franchises.
At the same age, WCS is having problem getting minutes in one of the least talented team in the league on a roster that desperately needs what he is supposed to bring.
At the same age, both Chandler and Jordan had proven what they could do - defense, rebound and finish close to the rim. WCS could only do one of those things, and only in spurts.
The problem for me is that moving forward, what do you expect WCS to become? Will he be a scorer? Doubt it. Will he be a good rebounder? Doubt it. You basically hope that he defends better, continues to block shots, finishes better, get stronger, hustle more, and knocks down the occasional Js. I'd say that's already a lot of things for him to work on. In other words, we're talking about someone like John Salley. Which is not a bad player by any means, but essentially a rotation player who plays 20 mins, which would be exactly what Webber predicted.
Unless WCS can turn into a big time rebounder, there is very little justification for him to be in the starting lineup. I just don't know of any legit starting big who can't score and can't rebound, no matter how good he is at other things.
I think WCS could start in a lineup where you got four guys who can really score, at least two other guys who can rebound the crap out of the ball, and just need an athletic big to fly around the court disrupting things.
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At the same age, WCS is having problem getting minutes in one of the least talented team in the league on a roster that desperately needs what he is supposed to bring.
At the same age, both Chandler and Jordan had proven what they could do - defense, rebound and finish close to the rim. WCS could only do one of those things, and only in spurts.
The problem for me is that moving forward, what do you expect WCS to become? Will he be a scorer? Doubt it. Will he be a good rebounder? Doubt it. You basically hope that he defends better, continues to block shots, finishes better, get stronger, hustle more, and knocks down the occasional Js. I'd say that's already a lot of things for him to work on. In other words, we're talking about someone like John Salley. Which is not a bad player by any means, but essentially a rotation player who plays 20 mins, which would be exactly what Webber predicted.
Unless WCS can turn into a big time rebounder, there is very little justification for him to be in the starting lineup. I just don't know of any legit starting big who can't score and can't rebound, no matter how good he is at other things.
I think WCS could start in a lineup where you got four guys who can really score, at least two other guys who can rebound the crap out of the ball, and just need an athletic big to fly around the court disrupting things.
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Mudiay is only 20 yrs old. I am willing to place a small bet that by WCS's current age, he will not be turning the ball over that much and he will be shooting over 40%.
Now, I am not saying he is a future star, but projecting forward he will probably still be a starting calibre player or at least a sixth man type.
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Now, I am not saying he is a future star, but projecting forward he will probably still be a starting calibre player or at least a sixth man type.
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I disagree. At the moment Willie is a 7 foot center, who excels at running the floor and playing at a fast pace with a ball dominant PG setting him up for lobs and easy dunks.
He was drafted by a team where the center position is already occupied by a star player and another fringe NBA starter. At his position this team is very talented. In his second season this team decided to slow down the pace severely, taking away the main strength of Willie on offense. On a team which likes to run and only needs defense and putbacks/lobs from his center Willie would already be a solid piece in the rotation. Once he gets stronger and his coach teaches him to be more aggressive, he could be a decent starting center.
The big mistake the Kings made, was to think Willie would be a good player to pair with DMC. Our GM seems to think we can still operate with 2 bigs in this league, basically making DMC a PF paired with a classic, defensive big with no jumpshot to speak of. Not only did our GM make this mistake once. No he decided to make it again in the 2016 draft with the Papa pick. So basically we have 1 star, 1 fringe starter and 2 first round picks all playing the same position (with 3 of them sharing a very similar skillset). This is simply not a position for a lottery pick to succeed, especially when the coaching staff decides to alter the offensive gameplan and takes away the only strength said lottery pick has on offense.
Is this Willie's fault or does that mean Willie is not an NBA player? Certainly not!
Once again the Kings didn't put their rookies in a position to succeed.
Now of course Willie deserves some criticism. He is making mistakes on the floor and he isn't aggressive enough. But during the more recent span of games I saw a change here and there, with Willie trying to make something happen and to fit into our offense.
Now regarding the Webber comments: This is bs from my point of view. The whole big man need to be strong thing doesn't fit anymore. Willie will never back down anyone in this league, but that's fine. Other center players might be able to overpower him - I gladly take a 1vs1 play versus a lengthy but rail thin 7 foot guy worth 2 points over an open 3 pointer. The only real power players in this league are DMC and Joel Embiid and one of them needs to prove, that he can stay healthy, before I start worrying about him as an opposing coach. Willie is tailormade for the lone big position most teams like that much at the moment. Pair him with a lot of 6'6 to 6'9 guys and a good PG and you basically have a defense able to switch at 4 positions, making the high pick&roll a lot less deadly.
Bostons roster with Willie at the 5, would be a defensive nightmare for teams like Portland.
Of course Plumlee will overpower Willie from time to time, but in the end it won't be enough to change the outcome of the game.
He was drafted by a team where the center position is already occupied by a star player and another fringe NBA starter. At his position this team is very talented. In his second season this team decided to slow down the pace severely, taking away the main strength of Willie on offense. On a team which likes to run and only needs defense and putbacks/lobs from his center Willie would already be a solid piece in the rotation. Once he gets stronger and his coach teaches him to be more aggressive, he could be a decent starting center.
The big mistake the Kings made, was to think Willie would be a good player to pair with DMC. Our GM seems to think we can still operate with 2 bigs in this league, basically making DMC a PF paired with a classic, defensive big with no jumpshot to speak of. Not only did our GM make this mistake once. No he decided to make it again in the 2016 draft with the Papa pick. So basically we have 1 star, 1 fringe starter and 2 first round picks all playing the same position (with 3 of them sharing a very similar skillset). This is simply not a position for a lottery pick to succeed, especially when the coaching staff decides to alter the offensive gameplan and takes away the only strength said lottery pick has on offense.
Is this Willie's fault or does that mean Willie is not an NBA player? Certainly not!
Once again the Kings didn't put their rookies in a position to succeed.
Now of course Willie deserves some criticism. He is making mistakes on the floor and he isn't aggressive enough. But during the more recent span of games I saw a change here and there, with Willie trying to make something happen and to fit into our offense.
Now regarding the Webber comments: This is bs from my point of view. The whole big man need to be strong thing doesn't fit anymore. Willie will never back down anyone in this league, but that's fine. Other center players might be able to overpower him - I gladly take a 1vs1 play versus a lengthy but rail thin 7 foot guy worth 2 points over an open 3 pointer. The only real power players in this league are DMC and Joel Embiid and one of them needs to prove, that he can stay healthy, before I start worrying about him as an opposing coach. Willie is tailormade for the lone big position most teams like that much at the moment. Pair him with a lot of 6'6 to 6'9 guys and a good PG and you basically have a defense able to switch at 4 positions, making the high pick&roll a lot less deadly.
Bostons roster with Willie at the 5, would be a defensive nightmare for teams like Portland.
Of course Plumlee will overpower Willie from time to time, but in the end it won't be enough to change the outcome of the game.
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It's not that having a defensive big next to Cousin is a bad fit, it's WCS's play that made him a bad fit. I highly doubt that if you put a 23-yr-old Tyson Chandler on this team that he'd not be getting starter minutes.
WCS needs to play better, that's the bottom line. He's not getting minutes because he hasn't earned it. Yes, he's been playing better but it still isn't good enough to the point where you can say he deserves more minutes.
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He's not getting minutes because we have a coach who is going to force WCS and other young guys to earn minutes. Unlike when Ben was given big minutes before he was ready early in his career. If WCS doesn't "bring" it, then court time goes away. It's why the rooks are in Reno. Get better and earn it. On the flip side, a guy like Mudiay, is he really better off playing all these minutes with no regard to results? I don't think so. He'd be better off playing behind a vet while learning. The guy averages more turnovers than assists as a starting PG....that is hard to do.
You may have a point about Mudiay being given starter minutes; but even if he has a vet in front of him, I think he'd still get around 15-20 mins a game and there is no question that this kid is a key part of the team's future. Denver has moved him to SG the last few games and started Nelson at PG; likely due to Gary Harris' injury.
Even if the coach is forcing WCS to earn minutes (something I agree with), he should be snatching those minutes left and right. His only competition is Koufos and Tolliver; it's not unreasonable to expect him to outplay those guys.
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Even if the coach is forcing WCS to earn minutes (something I agree with), he should be snatching those minutes left and right. His only competition is Koufos and Tolliver; it's not unreasonable to expect him to outplay those guys.
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Look, whether you want to admit it or not, the transition to the NBA is a tough one, whether you come right out of highschool, a freshman out of college or a junior out of college. There are so many circumstances you have to look at when your evaluating a player. In Willie's case, he never played basketball until his sophmore year of highschool, so he came to the game late. My original post had to do with Webber's comments, and at the time, Webber was comparing a player right out of college with a player that was in his seventh year in the NBA. That's just plain ridiculous. I compared Willie's rookie year to Jordan's rookie year, and they were virtually the same. I agree that all the circumstances aren't the same, but they never are.
Just because you don't think that Willie will be any good doesn't make it so, any more than my opinion to the opposite does. Where you and I differ, is that I can honestly say I don't know how good Willie will be, and you seem to have a crystal ball that gives you that future information. Truth is, for some reason you have your mind made up and I don't. I've been watching NBA basketball for a very long time, maybe too long, and one thing I do know, is that players will surprise you. Magically, they improve. I have seen so many players stink their rookie year, some of which are in the HOF, that I'm reluctant to say how good or bad a player is gong to be. I can tell you what I think his potential is, but I can't predict that he'll ever reach that potential.
In that regard, Willie has a lot of potential, particularly on the defensive side of the ball. Most of his problems are mental, not physical, and that means they're correctable. Lest anyone forget, Jordan was a second round pick, and there was a reason he was a second round pick. People questioned his BBIQ and lack of focus at times. No one expected him to be an offensive player. Willie could turn out to be much better than we anticipated, or you could be right about him. Call me stupid, but I'd like to know for sure what we have before we make any decisions. I could care less about Mudiay, or any other player drafted after him right now.
Just because you don't think that Willie will be any good doesn't make it so, any more than my opinion to the opposite does. Where you and I differ, is that I can honestly say I don't know how good Willie will be, and you seem to have a crystal ball that gives you that future information. Truth is, for some reason you have your mind made up and I don't. I've been watching NBA basketball for a very long time, maybe too long, and one thing I do know, is that players will surprise you. Magically, they improve. I have seen so many players stink their rookie year, some of which are in the HOF, that I'm reluctant to say how good or bad a player is gong to be. I can tell you what I think his potential is, but I can't predict that he'll ever reach that potential.
In that regard, Willie has a lot of potential, particularly on the defensive side of the ball. Most of his problems are mental, not physical, and that means they're correctable. Lest anyone forget, Jordan was a second round pick, and there was a reason he was a second round pick. People questioned his BBIQ and lack of focus at times. No one expected him to be an offensive player. Willie could turn out to be much better than we anticipated, or you could be right about him. Call me stupid, but I'd like to know for sure what we have before we make any decisions. I could care less about Mudiay, or any other player drafted after him right now.
There's some serious revisionist history going on in this thread with Chandler. He spent his early years just being a tall athletic guy with potential, got his rookie extension basically by being the guy who happened to be on a young playoff team and within a year was considered one of the worst contracts in the league and went to New Orleans in what was basically a salary dump. New Orleans tried to dump him to OKC and they wouldn't even do it and got out of it with a doctors note. It wasn't until he was in Charlotte, 8 years into his career, that he really became the chandler that everyone thinks of.
Guys like Chandler and WCS look great when they're on a good team, and horrible when they're on a bad team. It's just the way it is with defense first big guys.
Guys like Chandler and WCS look great when they're on a good team, and horrible when they're on a bad team. It's just the way it is with defense first big guys.
Crazy part is, iirc, the doctor for OKC who nixed the trade was the same one who performed surgery on his foot lol.
Edit: But yeah, it's a whole lot of revisionist, 20/20 vision with this guy. I might have been nice with the 5-6 years part. Chandler was probably 8 years into the league before he showed his true colors. Giving up on a big like Willie who will most definitely play 10-12 years in this league due to his attributes is just stupid and foolish.
Edit: But yeah, it's a whole lot of revisionist, 20/20 vision with this guy. I might have been nice with the 5-6 years part. Chandler was probably 8 years into the league before he showed his true colors. Giving up on a big like Willie who will most definitely play 10-12 years in this league due to his attributes is just stupid and foolish.