NewArena
All-Star
woops. you've already posted it
this is just sad. i know we should have held on to our lead, but a win is a win, and the refs
took that from us in the final seconds.
Can the Kings Protest?
- Thread starter Merdiesel
- Start date
this is just sad. i know we should have held on to our lead, but a win is a win, and the refs
took that from us in the final seconds.
theclash4u5
Starter
Just watched the video again in real time and if you start the clock when the ball touches Lee's hands, he holds it for almost a second........
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Dave Lack (Fireplug) @DaveLack 5m5 minutes agoTelling you all, will be easy to see if ball deflected off Hollins from overhead SportVu cameras if @nba allows use of it @carmichaeldave
jaysutton2003
G-League
Shouldnt this be classified as a clock malfunction as the clock never started from the start of the play to the end? Here is the 2014-2015 NBA instant replay policy.
http://mediacentral.nba.com/media/mediacentral/NBA-Instant-Replay-Situations.pdf
Trigger
Reviewable Matters
Officials have reasonable certainty the game clock malfunctioned and it continued to run to 0:00 or could have run to 0:00.
Whether the following occurred: (1) Time from when the game clock should have started to the field goal was released or the game clock ran to 0:00.(2) Clock incorrectly ran to 0:00 following FGM or whistle.(3) If FGM was released in actual time and if time should be added to the game clock.(4) If the clock started early, how much time should be added to the game clock. (5) FGM was scored correctly as a 2pt FG or 3pt FG.(6) Shooter committed a boundary line violation immediately prior to the release of the shot.(7) 24-second violation occurred prior to the ball leaving the shooter’s hand or foul occurred.(8) 8-second backcourt violation.
http://mediacentral.nba.com/media/mediacentral/NBA-Instant-Replay-Situations.pdf
Trigger
Reviewable Matters
Officials have reasonable certainty the game clock malfunctioned and it continued to run to 0:00 or could have run to 0:00.
Whether the following occurred: (1) Time from when the game clock should have started to the field goal was released or the game clock ran to 0:00.(2) Clock incorrectly ran to 0:00 following FGM or whistle.(3) If FGM was released in actual time and if time should be added to the game clock.(4) If the clock started early, how much time should be added to the game clock. (5) FGM was scored correctly as a 2pt FG or 3pt FG.(6) Shooter committed a boundary line violation immediately prior to the release of the shot.(7) 24-second violation occurred prior to the ball leaving the shooter’s hand or foul occurred.(8) 8-second backcourt violation.
King of Nowhere
Prospect
Can anyone get a 30ps direct feed video of the shot? If you can, it's pretty easy to calculate out how long it took for Lee to get the shot off if you count each frame. At 30fps, if the ball is not out of his hand 9 frames from when he touches the ball he didn't get it out in time. Simple math.
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
Wouldn't it be par for the course that something like SportVu cameras get implemented AFTER the Kings are victimized by a play like this? Remember, the reason we've had the shot clock lights the past 10, 11 years is largely because of Samaki Walkers half-court shot that shouldn't have counted in the infamous Game 4 of the 2002 WCF's. That play and Baron Davis' shot in the same or next postseason (can't recall which) is what got the NBA to make the change.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
That's pretty damn clear to me. Ball changed rotation, not even a question. If they can't overturn the outcome after seeing that i might lose faith in the NBA
Iced Espresso
Starter
I don't understand why some fans are not willing to try an appeal or protest.
randymoss1881
Starter
They will protect the refs and at best for us will issue an apology. If you think anything else will be done start loosing faith now.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Pretty sure they changed a game once and actually had the players go back and play the last 2 minutes of Overtime. In this game it's over either way so it should be an easy reverse
http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_l.html?nav=ArticleList
If we miss the playoffs by one game ... who knows. I don't see that likely either, but hey.
Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that the team is apparently doing something about it. I just don't believe it will alter the outcome.
If we miss the playoffs by one game ... who knows. I don't see that likely either, but hey.
The refs are ****ing crap. I've seen them take longer trying to determine a flagrant foul. This reminds of the Seahawks game in the beginning of the year. Percy Harvin clearly stepped out of bounds, it went to NY, and they still called it a TD..
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
They will say that view is "inconclusive", because the ball left camera view after the release, making it impossible to tell that there was a change in rotation.
That ball does indeed have some very odd looking rotation on it. If I had to bet, I'd say Hollins grazed it
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
it clearly shows the ball rotating forward before it goes out of the frame, and then rotating sideways once it's back in the frame.
on top of that, this video is probably cropped for instagram so im sure they have the full view. But yea they probably wont even look at it
fansinceday1
Starter
The NFL refs have been shooting for NBA infamy for years now. I didn't even have a dog in that fight and that blatant miss of percy stepping out of bounds just had me shaking my head. The ref was looking straight at his feet.
Nelson999
Prospect
Couple of observations -- First, why did the clock go from "0.3" to just ".3"?? Does that indicate that the operator had started the clock? Second, just because they might not have started it on time doesn't mean he couldn't have done that in .3 (although I have my doubts). Second, I think the best case you can make here is that the ball was deflected by Hollins. That Carmichael Dave video CLEARLY shows the ball's direction changing, which is exactly what it would do if he got a fingertip on the ball.
Here is the problem that I see with a successful protest though. I really doubt they will reverse the call if they feel that "judgement" was involved. Almost the entire time at the monitor, you could hear them discussing whether the ball was tipped or not and until another angle comes out that CLEARLY shows the ball being tipped, I don't think the NBA will overturn it based on the ball possibly changing direction. The other issue is if another angle comes out but it isn't part of their replay system's approved cameras. No chance they would bring that into play. That would be like opening Pandora's Box.
Here is the problem that I see with a successful protest though. I really doubt they will reverse the call if they feel that "judgement" was involved. Almost the entire time at the monitor, you could hear them discussing whether the ball was tipped or not and until another angle comes out that CLEARLY shows the ball being tipped, I don't think the NBA will overturn it based on the ball possibly changing direction. The other issue is if another angle comes out but it isn't part of their replay system's approved cameras. No chance they would bring that into play. That would be like opening Pandora's Box.
Iced Espresso
Starter
I don't need a rule book to see the shot clock started after the release of the shot, nor that the pass had its trajectory and ball rotation altered by the inbound.
Krunker
Northernmost Kings Fan
Ok here is my frame-by-frame analysis of why the Kings should have won.
I broke the video down frame-by-frame. On the timeline I used the difference when the shot clock changes from 0.2 to 0.1 to 0.0 to determine how far on the timeline is 0.1 seconds. (There is some weirdness where the shot clock changes from .3 to 0.3. If we use that when the clock starts then the shot is even more late, so I am ignoring this).
Shifting the distance for 0.3s determined by the changes in the shot clock to the point where Lee actually touches the ball we can see that time elapsed slightly before Lee releases the ball. Lee is about 0.03 seconds too late. Kings win!
I broke the video down frame-by-frame. On the timeline I used the difference when the shot clock changes from 0.2 to 0.1 to 0.0 to determine how far on the timeline is 0.1 seconds. (There is some weirdness where the shot clock changes from .3 to 0.3. If we use that when the clock starts then the shot is even more late, so I am ignoring this).
Shifting the distance for 0.3s determined by the changes in the shot clock to the point where Lee actually touches the ball we can see that time elapsed slightly before Lee releases the ball. Lee is about 0.03 seconds too late. Kings win!
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Unless a gust of wind blew that ball sideways we should be awarded the win.
On top of seeing the ball change direction, it's clear that Vince was trying to throw that ball to the other side of the basket for a dunk/tip for Lee
On top of seeing the ball change direction, it's clear that Vince was trying to throw that ball to the other side of the basket for a dunk/tip for Lee
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Send that to Carmichael Dave and every Kings owner on TwitterOk here is my frame-by-frame analysis of why the Kings should have won.
I broke the video down frame-by-frame. On the timeline I used the difference when the shot clock changes from 0.2 to 0.1 to 0.0 to determine how far on the timeline is 0.1 seconds. (There is some weirdness where the shot clock changes from .3 to 0.3. If we use that when the clock starts then the shot is even more late, so I am ignoring this).
Shifting the distance for 0.3s determined by the changes in the shot clock to the point where Lee actually touches the ball we can see that time elapsed slightly before Lee releases the ball. Lee is about 0.03 seconds too late. Kings win!
King of Nowhere
Prospect
Just counting the ticks on the timeline, .1 seconds is about 8 ticks. Amount of ticks from when he touches the ball to when it leaves his hand looks like 28 by my count but that big arrow is covering the start. Anything over 24 ticks is over .3 seconds.
Iced Espresso
Starter
Remember the refs changed the time to .3 so there should not be any hidden time, it should be a straight up .30
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Solid point
uolj
Starter
The fact that the clock didn't start until after the ball left his hand is pretty irrelevant. The clock is operated by a human with human reaction times and they aren't expected to get it right on. The call doesn't really hinge on that.
If King of Nowhere's analysis is correct, then it took roughly 0.35 seconds to get the shot off. That's not really enough to have a conclusive case (I'd say it's within the margin of error). Of course, with proper cameras and analysis I'm sure you could get an exact number. Anything over 0.4 would be conclusive in my opinion.
But of course, the fact that the rotation of the ball changes is the real kicker. Any camera angle that shows that really proves that the shot should not have counted.
I'm not so sure that such evidence would matter though. Usually in games like this, if a referee makes a decision, even a wrong one, it stands as part of the game. The errors here are referee decisions (they missed the tipped ball, they missed the time the ball was in Lee's hands, and they missed overturning either call on review). None of these are clock malfunctions or something else that I would expect would lead to the call being changed, even with overwhelming evidence that the call was wrong.
The only real hope is that because it's the last play of the game, you can change the call, but I'm pessimistic that that would matter. It seems more likely that they will apologize that the refs made a mistake but not actually change the outcome even if clear evidence is presented.
If King of Nowhere's analysis is correct, then it took roughly 0.35 seconds to get the shot off. That's not really enough to have a conclusive case (I'd say it's within the margin of error). Of course, with proper cameras and analysis I'm sure you could get an exact number. Anything over 0.4 would be conclusive in my opinion.
But of course, the fact that the rotation of the ball changes is the real kicker. Any camera angle that shows that really proves that the shot should not have counted.
I'm not so sure that such evidence would matter though. Usually in games like this, if a referee makes a decision, even a wrong one, it stands as part of the game. The errors here are referee decisions (they missed the tipped ball, they missed the time the ball was in Lee's hands, and they missed overturning either call on review). None of these are clock malfunctions or something else that I would expect would lead to the call being changed, even with overwhelming evidence that the call was wrong.
The only real hope is that because it's the last play of the game, you can change the call, but I'm pessimistic that that would matter. It seems more likely that they will apologize that the refs made a mistake but not actually change the outcome even if clear evidence is presented.
That would be acceptable EXCEPT for the fact they went to the replay center, got every imaginable view and still managed to make the wrong call. That's what really pissed me off. If they're going to make such a big deal about the replay center, state-of-the-art technology, etc. then they damned well better make sure they get it right. If not, toss all the crap in the river and go back to whatever's called is what counts. Of course, when everyone watching the game is able to replay, analyze, break down, etc. the officials are going to look even worse.
Nelson999
Prospect
Ok here is my frame-by-frame analysis of why the Kings should have won.
I broke the video down frame-by-frame. On the timeline I used the difference when the shot clock changes from 0.2 to 0.1 to 0.0 to determine how far on the timeline is 0.1 seconds. (There is some weirdness where the shot clock changes from .3 to 0.3. If we use that when the clock starts then the shot is even more late, so I am ignoring this).
Shifting the distance for 0.3s determined by the changes in the shot clock to the point where Lee actually touches the ball we can see that time elapsed slightly before Lee releases the ball. Lee is about 0.03 seconds too late. Kings win!
Kind of confusing to me, but the outcome seems obvious.
King of Nowhere
Prospect
My gripe is the league definitely has the resources, camera angles, high FPS footage to get it exactly right and they still blew it. What's the point in having a replay center if you can't use it correctly?
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