Can the Kings Protest?
- Thread starter Merdiesel
- Start date
Telling you all, will be easy to see if ball deflected off Hollins from overhead SportVu cameras if @nba allows use of it @carmichaeldave
Shouldnt this be classified as a clock malfunction as the clock never started from the start of the play to the end? Here is the 2014-2015 NBA instant replay policy.
http://mediacentral.nba.com/media/mediacentral/NBA-Instant-Replay-Situations.pdf
Trigger
Reviewable Matters
Officials have reasonable certainty the game clock malfunctioned and it continued to run to 0:00 or could have run to 0:00.
Whether the following occurred: (1) Time from when the game clock should have started to the field goal was released or the game clock ran to 0:00.(2) Clock incorrectly ran to 0:00 following FGM or whistle.(3) If FGM was released in actual time and if time should be added to the game clock.(4) If the clock started early, how much time should be added to the game clock. (5) FGM was scored correctly as a 2pt FG or 3pt FG.(6) Shooter committed a boundary line violation immediately prior to the release of the shot.(7) 24-second violation occurred prior to the ball leaving the shooter’s hand or foul occurred.(8) 8-second backcourt violation.
http://mediacentral.nba.com/media/mediacentral/NBA-Instant-Replay-Situations.pdf
Trigger
Reviewable Matters
Officials have reasonable certainty the game clock malfunctioned and it continued to run to 0:00 or could have run to 0:00.
Whether the following occurred: (1) Time from when the game clock should have started to the field goal was released or the game clock ran to 0:00.(2) Clock incorrectly ran to 0:00 following FGM or whistle.(3) If FGM was released in actual time and if time should be added to the game clock.(4) If the clock started early, how much time should be added to the game clock. (5) FGM was scored correctly as a 2pt FG or 3pt FG.(6) Shooter committed a boundary line violation immediately prior to the release of the shot.(7) 24-second violation occurred prior to the ball leaving the shooter’s hand or foul occurred.(8) 8-second backcourt violation.
Wouldn't it be par for the course that something like SportVu cameras get implemented AFTER the Kings are victimized by a play like this? Remember, the reason we've had the shot clock lights the past 10, 11 years is largely because of Samaki Walkers half-court shot that shouldn't have counted in the infamous Game 4 of the 2002 WCF's. That play and Baron Davis' shot in the same or next postseason (can't recall which) is what got the NBA to make the change.
http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_l.html?nav=ArticleList
Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that the team is apparently doing something about it. I just don't believe it will alter the outcome.
If we miss the playoffs by one game ... who knows. I don't see that likely either, but hey.
Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that the team is apparently doing something about it. I just don't believe it will alter the outcome.
If we miss the playoffs by one game ... who knows. I don't see that likely either, but hey.
Couple of observations -- First, why did the clock go from "0.3" to just ".3"?? Does that indicate that the operator had started the clock? Second, just because they might not have started it on time doesn't mean he couldn't have done that in .3 (although I have my doubts). Second, I think the best case you can make here is that the ball was deflected by Hollins. That Carmichael Dave video CLEARLY shows the ball's direction changing, which is exactly what it would do if he got a fingertip on the ball.
Here is the problem that I see with a successful protest though. I really doubt they will reverse the call if they feel that "judgement" was involved. Almost the entire time at the monitor, you could hear them discussing whether the ball was tipped or not and until another angle comes out that CLEARLY shows the ball being tipped, I don't think the NBA will overturn it based on the ball possibly changing direction. The other issue is if another angle comes out but it isn't part of their replay system's approved cameras. No chance they would bring that into play. That would be like opening Pandora's Box.
Here is the problem that I see with a successful protest though. I really doubt they will reverse the call if they feel that "judgement" was involved. Almost the entire time at the monitor, you could hear them discussing whether the ball was tipped or not and until another angle comes out that CLEARLY shows the ball being tipped, I don't think the NBA will overturn it based on the ball possibly changing direction. The other issue is if another angle comes out but it isn't part of their replay system's approved cameras. No chance they would bring that into play. That would be like opening Pandora's Box.
Ok here is my frame-by-frame analysis of why the Kings should have won.
I broke the video down frame-by-frame. On the timeline I used the difference when the shot clock changes from 0.2 to 0.1 to 0.0 to determine how far on the timeline is 0.1 seconds. (There is some weirdness where the shot clock changes from .3 to 0.3. If we use that when the clock starts then the shot is even more late, so I am ignoring this).
Shifting the distance for 0.3s determined by the changes in the shot clock to the point where Lee actually touches the ball we can see that time elapsed slightly before Lee releases the ball. Lee is about 0.03 seconds too late. Kings win!
I broke the video down frame-by-frame. On the timeline I used the difference when the shot clock changes from 0.2 to 0.1 to 0.0 to determine how far on the timeline is 0.1 seconds. (There is some weirdness where the shot clock changes from .3 to 0.3. If we use that when the clock starts then the shot is even more late, so I am ignoring this).
Shifting the distance for 0.3s determined by the changes in the shot clock to the point where Lee actually touches the ball we can see that time elapsed slightly before Lee releases the ball. Lee is about 0.03 seconds too late. Kings win!
Ok here is my frame-by-frame analysis of why the Kings should have won.
I broke the video down frame-by-frame. On the timeline I used the difference when the shot clock changes from 0.2 to 0.1 to 0.0 to determine how far on the timeline is 0.1 seconds. (There is some weirdness where the shot clock changes from .3 to 0.3. If we use that when the clock starts then the shot is even more late, so I am ignoring this).
Shifting the distance for 0.3s determined by the changes in the shot clock to the point where Lee actually touches the ball we can see that time elapsed slightly before Lee releases the ball. Lee is about 0.03 seconds too late. Kings win!
I broke the video down frame-by-frame. On the timeline I used the difference when the shot clock changes from 0.2 to 0.1 to 0.0 to determine how far on the timeline is 0.1 seconds. (There is some weirdness where the shot clock changes from .3 to 0.3. If we use that when the clock starts then the shot is even more late, so I am ignoring this).
Shifting the distance for 0.3s determined by the changes in the shot clock to the point where Lee actually touches the ball we can see that time elapsed slightly before Lee releases the ball. Lee is about 0.03 seconds too late. Kings win!
The fact that the clock didn't start until after the ball left his hand is pretty irrelevant. The clock is operated by a human with human reaction times and they aren't expected to get it right on. The call doesn't really hinge on that.
If King of Nowhere's analysis is correct, then it took roughly 0.35 seconds to get the shot off. That's not really enough to have a conclusive case (I'd say it's within the margin of error). Of course, with proper cameras and analysis I'm sure you could get an exact number. Anything over 0.4 would be conclusive in my opinion.
But of course, the fact that the rotation of the ball changes is the real kicker. Any camera angle that shows that really proves that the shot should not have counted.
I'm not so sure that such evidence would matter though. Usually in games like this, if a referee makes a decision, even a wrong one, it stands as part of the game. The errors here are referee decisions (they missed the tipped ball, they missed the time the ball was in Lee's hands, and they missed overturning either call on review). None of these are clock malfunctions or something else that I would expect would lead to the call being changed, even with overwhelming evidence that the call was wrong.
The only real hope is that because it's the last play of the game, you can change the call, but I'm pessimistic that that would matter. It seems more likely that they will apologize that the refs made a mistake but not actually change the outcome even if clear evidence is presented.
If King of Nowhere's analysis is correct, then it took roughly 0.35 seconds to get the shot off. That's not really enough to have a conclusive case (I'd say it's within the margin of error). Of course, with proper cameras and analysis I'm sure you could get an exact number. Anything over 0.4 would be conclusive in my opinion.
But of course, the fact that the rotation of the ball changes is the real kicker. Any camera angle that shows that really proves that the shot should not have counted.
I'm not so sure that such evidence would matter though. Usually in games like this, if a referee makes a decision, even a wrong one, it stands as part of the game. The errors here are referee decisions (they missed the tipped ball, they missed the time the ball was in Lee's hands, and they missed overturning either call on review). None of these are clock malfunctions or something else that I would expect would lead to the call being changed, even with overwhelming evidence that the call was wrong.
The only real hope is that because it's the last play of the game, you can change the call, but I'm pessimistic that that would matter. It seems more likely that they will apologize that the refs made a mistake but not actually change the outcome even if clear evidence is presented.
That would be acceptable EXCEPT for the fact they went to the replay center, got every imaginable view and still managed to make the wrong call. That's what really pissed me off. If they're going to make such a big deal about the replay center, state-of-the-art technology, etc. then they damned well better make sure they get it right. If not, toss all the crap in the river and go back to whatever's called is what counts. Of course, when everyone watching the game is able to replay, analyze, break down, etc. the officials are going to look even worse.
Ok here is my frame-by-frame analysis of why the Kings should have won.
I broke the video down frame-by-frame. On the timeline I used the difference when the shot clock changes from 0.2 to 0.1 to 0.0 to determine how far on the timeline is 0.1 seconds. (There is some weirdness where the shot clock changes from .3 to 0.3. If we use that when the clock starts then the shot is even more late, so I am ignoring this).
Shifting the distance for 0.3s determined by the changes in the shot clock to the point where Lee actually touches the ball we can see that time elapsed slightly before Lee releases the ball. Lee is about 0.03 seconds too late. Kings win!
I broke the video down frame-by-frame. On the timeline I used the difference when the shot clock changes from 0.2 to 0.1 to 0.0 to determine how far on the timeline is 0.1 seconds. (There is some weirdness where the shot clock changes from .3 to 0.3. If we use that when the clock starts then the shot is even more late, so I am ignoring this).
Shifting the distance for 0.3s determined by the changes in the shot clock to the point where Lee actually touches the ball we can see that time elapsed slightly before Lee releases the ball. Lee is about 0.03 seconds too late. Kings win!