By the Numbers: Who's Really Been Disappointing?

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Been meaning to do this for the last few days, but been very busy.

We are all disappointed with the general suckiness of this squad, but how much should we be, and how much was just unrealistic expectations? Some interesting comparisons here:

Bibby:
04-05: 38.6min 19.6pts (.443 FG% .360 3pt% .775 FT%) 4.2reb 6.8ast 1.6stl 0.4blk 2.5TO
05-06: 37.3min 19.6pts (.440 FG% .407 3pt% .836 FT%) 3.1reb 5.4ast 0.9stl 0.2blk 2.3TO

Notes: Offensively Mike is every bit as good as he was last year. Rebounds and assits are down, but down to his normal numbers for us -- averaged 2.8, 2.7, and 3.4 rebs before last season, and 5.0, 5.2 and 5.4 ast before last year. One year spike. Steals is interesting, lowest of his career and a big fall off. Statistical reflection of the general impression of a bad defender having an even worse year?

Peja:
04-05: 38.4min 20.1pts (.444 FG% .402 3pt% .920 FT%) 4.3reb 2.1ast 1.2stl 0.2blk 1.6TO
05-06: 37.3min 17.2pts (.417 FG% .420 3pt% .927 FT%) 4.7reb 2.3ast 0.7stl 0.1blk 1.4TO

Notes: As will be seen, of all the guys the only one who is actually down from his recent offensive numbers. Of course this falloff began last year when the shooting percentages started to drop and the rebounding stopped. Note the curiosity that Peja is as good or better this year from 3pt range and the FT stripe (where he gets a free point or two every game shooting technicals), but is shooting MUCH worse from 2pt range. Perhaps the big falloff on laser passes from Vlade/Webb/Doug to Peja inside on cuts for easy layups. No more spoon feeds, and creating for himself, in traffic inside, = bad news. Note also the steals. Like Mike, a statistical reflection of a falloff in defensive intensity? Career low again.

Reef:
04-05: 34.6min 16.8pts (.503 FG% .385 3pt% .866 FT%) 7.3reb 2.1ast 0.9stl 0.5blk 2.2TO
05-06: 35.4min 16.5pts (.547 FG% .500 3pt% .792 FT%) 6.4reb 3.2ast 0.7stl 0.9blk 2.0TO

Notes: Amongst all the posts suggesting the contrary, is it possible Reef actually BENEFITS from this system/team structure? Again pts and rebounds similar to last year, while FG% is by far and away a career high, and perhaps a reflection of the extra attention all of the other scorers get. 3pt% must be considered an aberration, but again a career high. Ironically somewhat of a falloff in FT% after years of 80%+ -- lowest since 1998. Assists are elevated by the Princeton no doubt, and also a return to his earlier years when he would get 3 a game. And blocks are the highest they've been since the year we met the Lakers in the WCF, although obviously still bad for a PF. And then there's rebounds. Suck of course. But sucked last year too. And here's a stat for you: In 1999-2000, the year forever ago that we had Nick Anderson, Reef briefly topped 10 rebs a game. These are the annual averages in the 7 years since: 10.1, 9.1, 9.0, 8.4, 7.5, 7.3, 6.4...detecting a trend?

Bonzi:
02-03: 31.9min 15.2pts (.441 FG% .292 2pt% .722 FT%) 5.3reb 3.3ast 1.6stl 0.2blk 2.9TO
05-06: 34.3min 15.1pts (.476 FG% .227 3pt% .670 FT%) 7.6reb 3.2ast 1.8stl 0.5blk 2.6TO

Notes: Obviously I cheated a bit here to go back and find the closer comparison to the last time Bonzi started and got 30+ min in a season. I did not highlight the shooting percentages, either better (FG) or worse (3pt and FT) because the year before 02-03 (01-02) Bonzi shot .469 and is a career .465 shooter. Meanwhile his outside shooting numbers here may or may not have something to do with his own injured finger. Hard to tell, as he's never been much of a shooter or FTer. In any case, rest of the numbers match up quite well, with the exception obviously of the rebounding. He's always been an excellent rebounder, but this year has taken it to another level.

Miller:
04-05: 37.3min 15.6pts (.524 FG% .263 3pt% .812 FT%) 9.3reb 3.9ast 1.2stl 1.2blk 1.5TO
05-06: 36.5min 14.6pts (.516 FG% .292 3pt% .858 FT%) 8.1reb 5.6ast 1.0stl 0.5blk 2.3TO

Notes: So once again, the offensive numbers all match very closely with last season. Like Reef, the rebounding has been trending in the wrong direction ever since he hit Sacto -- 10, to 9, now to 8. But its a muich shorter three year trend, and it has been getting a little better here in recent weeks. Assists are up as he basically assumes all of the passing duties that Vlade and Webb used to split between them, and turnovers have risen too as a logical result. Shotblocking is worth highlighting, just because again, like Bibby and Peja, maybe it means something. In his two prior years in Sacto Brad has been a crappy defender, but had actually raised his shotblocking to career highs (very modest impact free 1.2 a game). Now he has fallen back to 0.5, which is about where he was beore he hit Sacto and is below Bonzi.
 
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Good job Brick.

Just for the record
1. Brad gives up over 15 points/game against opposing centers.
2. The front court is getting out rebounded by 7 or 8 rebounds a game.
3. Bibby is allowing opposing point gaurds to dish out like 10 assist/game. Thats 3 more than the league average.
 
Thanks Brick. The numbers are interesting and by just looking at the numbers you might think that we would be a pretty good team. However, that's obviously not the case. I think that before Bonzi went down and then Peja went down again and then Reef, the starters were making some good strides as far as playing as a cohesive unit. Nevertheless, the most glaring dissapointment for me so far has been Peja's lack of energy and effort. He doesn't move without the ball like he used to and for that matter he's not getting the ball as much as he used to. I think you hit the nail on the head with respect to Peja's two point shooting percentage. Whenever he now gets the ball within the arc he tends to force too many shots whereas when he gets it behind the arc its either in transition or when there is good ball movement. Now, as to who has disappointed me the most...it might just be Jason Hart. I can't think of one time this year when he has come into the game and really put a postive stamp on things. It amazes me because he wasn't that bad last year in Charlotte. Give Price more time!!!
 
Bricklayer said:
Notes: Offensively Mike is every bit as good as he was last year.

Great post, but not sure I agree with this. I don't think the assist number should be discounted -- this year he has not been as effective at running the offense and involving other players and has been prone to looking more for his own shot rather than operating within the offense. 1.4 assists per game is a pretty large difference.

Even if last year was an aberration compared to Bibby's past averages with the Kings, a large part of the Kings' modest success last year was due to Bibby's effectiveness facilitating the offense in the absence of Vlade and Webber. I don't know if you can really blame the influx of new personnel either, since he was so effective at the end of last year incoporting Cuttino and the Philly 3. This year, Bibby's consistent stewardship has been largely absent.
 
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This is not in defense of Reef - but it isn't necessarily the most correct way to analyze Reef comparing him to the years he was in Portland playing either off the bench or out of position or both.

Again - it doesn't relieve Reef from his duties on the glass. Just an observation.
 
Nice post Brick

I have looked at those stats recently also Brick and they have confused me a tad. I need to do some more digging but I would like to see bench production vs last year and also see the difference in PF/SG from last year.

I noticed Bibby is not making as many crazy attempts to steal the ball like last year. He would always overshoot his guy and I wonder if him trying to stay in front of his man instead of making attempts at the ball is a result of less steals this year.
 
BigWaxer said:
I noticed Bibby is not making as many crazy attempts to steal the ball like last year. He would always overshoot his guy and I wonder if him trying to stay in front of his man instead of making attempts at the ball is a result of less steals this year.

If I'm not mistaken, if a player pokes the ball away (say, Doug Christie) and Bibby comes up with the ball, Bibby gets credit for the steal, correct? Could Doug's absence be an explanation for Bibby's and Peja's low steal numbers? Or am I wrong on that?
 
Comparison to last year's bench:

Points are down 4 from last year
Rebounds are down 2

Those are probably the most significant

I'll compare SG and PF in a bit.
 
Nice post, thanks.

To piksi's point, 12-18. Seems the starters' numbers, as good as they are, aren't resulting in a winning season thus far. Besides the steals and blocks, it'd be interesting to see some other defensive stats like opponent's FG%, total pts per position +/-, etc.
 
PF Comparison:
This year we are
-2 points/game
-2.5 reb/gm
-1 ast/gm
-1 stl/gm
+ 4% fg
+ 20% 3pt
effiency = -3

SG Comparison:
This year we are
+3 rb/gm
-10% 3pt
-6% ft
effiency = +2

The rest of the stats are similar.
 
Diabeticwonder said:
Nevertheless, the most glaring dissapointment for me so far has been Peja's lack of energy and effort............... Now, as to who has disappointed me the most...it might just be Jason Hart. ............... Give Price more time!!!


Nail on the Head Wonder! One thing that stats don't show (great stats BTW brick) is enegy and will on the court. Throughout his carreer he's always been referred to as soft on defense, but I can't remember a time when night in/night out he's consistantly lacking energy. Somebody said yesterday in a thread that apparently he's content to just coast his way to a new mediocre contract instead of in a contract year to really turn it out and boost his value....?mystery? But Hart is (arghem...was) supposed to be the defensive stopper off the bench. Props to Price but when is he ever going to see consistant minutes? rotations have to have me thinking Biggest dissapointment of the year. RA's subbing patterns usually leave me scratching my head but this year they're just dumbfounding.
 
nbrans said:
If I'm not mistaken, if a player pokes the ball away (say, Doug Christie) and Bibby comes up with the ball, Bibby gets credit for the steal, correct? Could Doug's absence be an explanation for Bibby's and Peja's low steal numbers? Or am I wrong on that?

Right about the rule (always kind of a joke really) but just checked the numebrs and they don't bear out the interesting theory for Mike and Peja. In fact last year Mike's steal numbers in the first two months (while Doug was still in Sacto) were 1.21 and 1.46, both below his season averages, and Peja's were 1.29 and 0.77, also right at or below his season averages. Whatever it is, its not that.
 
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Here's a listing of how we compare - at all positions to last year. It also includes the PER rating and the NETPER rating which compares the PER of the opponent to the PER of the player.


LAST YEAR
Position ........ FGA ........ eFG% ........ FTA ........ iFG ........ Reb ........ Ast ........ T/O ........ Blk ........ PF ........ Pts ........ PER* ..... NETPER
PG .............. 19.8 ....... .498 ........ 5.5 ........ 20% ........ 5.4 ........ 7.8 ........ 3.0 ........ 0.4 ........ 3.2 ....... 24.1 ....... 19.1 ..... +3.5
SG .............. 14.8 ....... .482 ........ 3.6 ........ 27% ........ 6.3 ........ 4.2 ........ 2.2 ........ 0.5 ........ 3.4 ....... 17.1 ....... 13.4 ..... -2.3
SF .............. 17.5 ....... .513 ........ 5.0 ........ 23% ........ 6.4 ........ 3.1 ........ 2.4 ........ 0.3 ........ 3.6 ....... 22.2 ....... 16.0 ..... +1.1
PF .............. 19.3 ....... .483 ........ 5.0 ........ 38% ........ 11.5........ 4.9 ........ 3.0 ........ 0.6 ........ 4.9 ....... 22.6 ....... 18.3 ..... +0.6
C ............... 13.7 ....... .509 ........ 5.2 ........ 47% ........ 12.8........ 4.3 ........ 2.1 ........ 2.0 ........ 5.4 ....... 17.8 ....... 18.8 ..... +0.9

THIS YEAR
Position ........ FGA ........ eFG% ........ FTA ........ iFG ........ Reb ........ Ast ........ T/O ........ Blk ........ PF ........ Pts ........ PER* ..... NETPER
PG .............. 18.8 ....... .491 ........ 5.2 ........ 14% ........ 3.9 ........ 6.3 ........ 2.9 ........ 0.2 ........ 3.1 ....... 22.6 ....... 16.3 ..... -2.8
SG .............. 14.7 ....... .432 ........ 5.6 ........ 42% ........ 7.8 ........ 3.9 ........ 3.3 ........ 0.6 ........ 4.5 ....... 16.9 ....... 12.5 ..... -3.3
SF .............. 17.4 ....... .497 ........ 4.7 ........ 25% ........ 7.4 ........ 3.2 ........ 2.3 ........ 0.4 ........ 4.1 ....... 21.3 ....... 15.7 ..... +0.9
PF .............. 15.2 ....... .515 ........ 6.1 ........ 48% ........ 9.9 ........ 3.7 ........ 2.7 ........ 1.0 ........ 4.9 ....... 20.3 ....... 17.2 ..... +2.1
C ............... 13.2 ....... .537 ........ 5.4 ........ 31% ........ 10.0........ 6.4 ........ 3.0 ........ 0.9 ........ 4.8 ....... 18.5 ....... 18.6 ..... -1.2


PER COMPARISON
Position ........ PERD ..... NETPERD
PG .............. -2.8 ..... -6.3
SG .............. -0.9 ..... -1.0
SF .............. -0.3 ..... -0.2
PF .............. -1.1 ..... +1.5
C ............... -0.2 ..... -2.1
 
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Defense Points per Possesion is nearly identical.
Last year we gave up 108 pts/100 possesions

This year we give up 107 pts/100 possesions
 
CaminoChaos said:
Defense Points per Possesion is nearly identical.
Last year we gave up 108 pts/100 possesions

This year we give up 107 pts/100 possesions

The site I use calculates last year at 105/100 possession and this year 109/100 possessions.

Where did you get your numbers?
 
i have the chance to watch every game this year with league pass. In the past all i saw was nationaly televised games. In those games in the past i noticed Bibby going for the steal alot and when he came up empty well his guy had a clear path to basket. Now jump to this year. 1. we are playing alot more zone than in the past so nobody is playing up on a man during that time. 2. Bibby seems to be a better 1 on 1 defender this year partly because he isn't jumping out for the steal 6 to 7 times a game like in the past.
So therefore his steals are down but his defense and ball stopping is better. so instead of the point taking it to the rim he is passing off which is why the points are getting 10 assist agianst Bibby. Now with Miller its simple he just lacks quickness and athletisism also Bibby isn't doubling down on the post players as much as he used to which he also got steals.
 
CaminoChaos said:
82games.com

That is where I got the PER ratings. I usually use 82games for most of the stats - I didn't know they actually had /100 possession stats.

I used KNICKBLOGGER.net.
 
nbrans said:
Great post, but not sure I agree with this. I don't think the assist number should be discounted -- this year he has not been as effective at running the offense and involving other players and has been prone to looking more for his own shot rather than operating within the offense. 1.4 assists per game is a pretty large difference.

Even if last year was an aberration compared to Bibby's past averages with the Kings, a large part of the Kings' modest success last year was due to Bibby's effectiveness facilitating the offense in the absence of Vlade and Webber. I don't know if you can really blame the influx of new personnel either, since he was so effective at the end of last year incoporting Cuttino and the Philly 3. This year, Bibby's consistent stewardship has been largely absent.
Totally agree. His shot has been sketchy, as well. Forced alot of the time, where as before he was for the most part, always in rhythm. But this happens due to his wanting to 'be the man' on a team with no leader, and he isnt the right person for this, as we've seen so far in his trial run being the 'leader' in which he stated he wanted to be before the season started.
 
Who's been really disapointing?
...Petrie.
12-18 this year.
20-10 last year.

Good moves though. At least we got more healthy.
 
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