Building from within:

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#1
My original intent was to start a thread, which I'm doing and give my thoughts on the possible benefits of remaining patient, and building the team from within. But someone on Sactown Royality beat me to it, and did a very good job. So rather than be redundant, or be accused of plagiarism, I've decided to post his article. He makes good points, on both sides of the issue. My point would be, that if your going to go through a rebuild, then pick the route you want to take, and then stick with it. I think the one thing you shouldn't do, is switch horses half way through.

That said, there is a point where both paths can come together, the trick is to have it happen naturally, and not force it. Here's the article:

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018...ar-power-be-an-asset-for-the-sacramento-kings
 
#2
I think they did a lot of cherry picking when comparing Golden State to our players.

Steph Curry came out of the gate as a legitimate shooter and put up something like 18ppg his rookie year. They minimize it by saying it took him 4 years to become a 20ppg player. Not a single Kings player is even as good as defensive sieve rookie Steph Curry.

Klay Thompson essentially had the same year Buddy Hield had this year except he was 21 while Buddy was 24. They minimize it by saying he was underwhelming and finished outside the top 5 for the rookie of the year campaign.

Harrison Barnes came into the league as a solid defender, which none of our rookies have shown.

No one would have known that Draymond was going to turn into this incredible swiss army knife that allowed the Warriors to play a style of basketball that has never worked in the past. This guy went from shaky small forward to elite defender who can defend all 5 positions as well as distribute the ball as well as any big man ever has. I have a lot of hope in Giles but even I can't be that unrealistic.
 
#3
Love the article and fully agree with this approach! Only issue with the majority of the Kings fans out there is that we have been patient for so long that you can't help but to win NOW. Keep in mind the Kings currently have the longest playoff drought but I can definitely see the team being built real nicely with all the pieces slowly coming together. So many young guys that haven't boomed or reached their prime yet (Fox,Bogi,Buddy,Skal) and now we are adding 2 more to the core (#2 pick, Giles). A little more PATIENCE and Kings fans will be rewarded ;)
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#5
I think they did a lot of cherry picking when comparing Golden State to our players.

Steph Curry came out of the gate as a legitimate shooter and put up something like 18ppg his rookie year. They minimize it by saying it took him 4 years to become a 20ppg player. Not a single Kings player is even as good as defensive sieve rookie Steph Curry.

Klay Thompson essentially had the same year Buddy Hield had this year except he was 21 while Buddy was 24. They minimize it by saying he was underwhelming and finished outside the top 5 for the rookie of the year campaign.

Harrison Barnes came into the league as a solid defender, which none of our rookies have shown.

No one would have known that Draymond was going to turn into this incredible swiss army knife that allowed the Warriors to play a style of basketball that has never worked in the past. This guy went from shaky small forward to elite defender who can defend all 5 positions as well as distribute the ball as well as any big man ever has. I have a lot of hope in Giles but even I can't be that unrealistic.
I don't think his intention was to totally compare players, but to compare approaches. That was my intent by posting the article. Yes, he cherry picked a bit, but everyone cherry picks things that support their agenda. You do it, and I do it. What's he supposed to do, pick out situations that don't fit his argument?

The point is, if you decide to build through the draft, it doesn't happen over night. One of our current players could turn out to be a star. Curry didn't really have a break out year until his 4th year in the league. For Thompson and Green, it was their 3rd year, although Thompson showed signs in his 2nd year. We really don't know what we have yet, and won't know for sure for a couple more years. So we shouldn't be in a hurry to spend a ton of money on a freeagent, at least not this offseason.

Lets see who blossoms and who doesn't, so when we have a lot of capspace (the summer after this one, 66 mil) we'll be able to make solid decisions on what we need. And, our needs may not be as great as we think.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#8
I definitely think we should build from within for another 1 or 2 seasons at least.

Let the Kids grow together and when we start to turn the corner, then we should look to make a splash and sign a worthwhile player with our cap space. Don't use up our cap space now on a lower tier FA signing like George Hill.

Any upper tier FA wouldn't consider the Kings right now, but if the young guys develop, then we may be able to lure a good FA when everyone is capped out.

Who knows, in 2 or 3 years we may have 2 or 3 players already on the team emerge (i.e. Fox, Giles, Buddy, or Doncic ;)) as All-Stars.

In the meantime, I would like to use our cap space to absorb one or two bad (but not terrible) contracts and get some 1st round picks or young players with upside in return.

I don't want to see a repeat of the George Hill fiasco! :eek:
 
Last edited:
#9
Very optimistic article and he directly tried to compare the Kings players with the Warriors players. He brings up the point that the Kings are younger at a random point, but Curry and Klay were MUCH better.

24yearold Curry: 22.9pts 6.9asts 4.0rebs 45/45/90
22yearold Klay: 16.6pts 2.2asts 3.7rebs 42/40/84

24yearold Buddy: 13.5pts 1.9asts 3.8rebs 44/43/87
20yearold Fox: 11.6pts 4.4asts 2.8rebs 41/30/72

Also, Curry's rookie year was much better than Fox's. For those of you who might not remember, Curry was considered neck and neck with Tyreke for ROY until Tyreke's 20-5-5 campaign. 21 yearold Curry's rookie stats are very good 17.5pts 5.9asts 4.5rebs on 46/43/85. Compare it to Fox's in bold. Fox showed flashes, but Curry showed actual production. So yeah, I do have a problem with the writer's approach. He claims that we don't need a superstar because we might already have one on the roster and not know it just like the Warriors, except he completely ignored the fact that Curry had an outstanding rookie year. Also, why does he bring up draft position? It doesn't matter where Curry was drafted. He's a superstar. GS knew in his rookie year that he was going to be very special not because of glimpses, but because of production.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what the point of the article was. No one has suggested that we should blow up the rebuild by trading Fox and Co. for a superstar. No one has suggested that we should trade the #2 pick for a superstar. I think it's very clear that we are rebuilding. The FO is very high on Fox.

I think a better article subject should've been on drafting a superstar with the #2 pick. You need a superstar to win in the NBA. BUT, I do think the article was very well written. I disagree with the author, but it was worth a read.
 
#10
Not going to read that article.....I've already said that the best course in patience because we don't even know what we got yet. There is lots of growth to be accomplished. The team to copy is Minnesota. Accumulate enough young assets, play together for some years and then trade for the established All-Star.....like Minny did with Jimmy Butler and signing Taj Gibson and getting Jeff Teague.

Keep bringing along the younger players.
 
#11
I don't think his intention was to totally compare players, but to compare approaches. That was my intent by posting the article. Yes, he cherry picked a bit, but everyone cherry picks things that support their agenda. You do it, and I do it. What's he supposed to do, pick out situations that don't fit his argument?

The point is, if you decide to build through the draft, it doesn't happen over night. One of our current players could turn out to be a star. Curry didn't really have a break out year until his 4th year in the league. For Thompson and Green, it was their 3rd year, although Thompson showed signs in his 2nd year. We really don't know what we have yet, and won't know for sure for a couple more years. So we shouldn't be in a hurry to spend a ton of money on a freeagent, at least not this offseason.

Lets see who blossoms and who doesn't, so when we have a lot of capspace (the summer after this one, 66 mil) we'll be able to make solid decisions on what we need. And, our needs may not be as great as we think.
Let me put it this way since I can get really long winded sometimes. If Fox had the exact same numbers from this year and I went and looked at his game logs and the numbers were bad and then all the sudden in March and April he averages 16ppg and 5apg, I'd have something to be excited about. You could say that he's turning the corner. But that's not the case. His numbers were all over the place from month to month, not showing much improvement. Kemba Walker was even worse than him his rookie year so it's not like he's done for but if you check out the top PGs in the league, most of them probably had good rookie years. Curry, Wall, Paul, Lillard, Irving and Westbrook all had really good to solid rookie years. Walker, Conley, and Lowry didn't. So you start to get a feel for what category Fox has a chance of landing in and unless he's a complete outlier, that first group is out and now we have to hope he lands in this second group. He could wind up as the best PG of all time but the numbers are slowly telling you where he's probably going to wind up.

I don't quite agree with 206fan comparison Fox to Curry since they were 4 years apart as rookies but the odds of Fox reaching that group's levels have now dropped considerably after his rookie campaign. We all know that every player doesn't come into the league guns blazing but we also know that each year the player doesn't develop basically lowers the odds of them ever developing into a really good player. There are obviously outliers there but the odds are against most of our players at the moment. We don't even have a single player currently on the team with the potential that Curry and Klay had their rookie years.

We're putting our money on a player with a horrible rookie season (Fox), a 25 year old solid player who more than likely doesn't have much of a ceiling (Bogdan), a 24 year old great shooter with terrible handles and improving but shaky defense (Buddy), a 21 year old that has regressed offensively (Skal) and a kid we haven't seen play healthy since high school (Giles). That's 5 core players with massive question marks and the two with the least amount of question marks are older and don't have the time nor the odds of developing as the younger guys do. The odds simply aren't there for us and while I'm not ready to write them off, I'm not going to bank on them being anything like Golden State or even the Nuggets. Basically we're playing against house money right now and it's not a foregone conclusion that we're going to lose but the odds are not in our favor at the moment. I think we still need to acquire our best player to have a shot at the playoffs in a couple years.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#12
I'm not quite sure the point of the article either. Even the Warriors signed a top level free agent in Durant. I think we all understand Sacramento has to build a core of stars via the draft. From that point we can hope to sign a free agent that will put us over the top. It's why many of us are so passionate about who we pick at 2 because it will likely be a defining point for the next 5-10 years. The current stars are not likely on the roster yet with the possible exception of Giles so this pick is critical to get that guy. Is that guy Doncic or Porter or Bagley or Bamba? We all have our opinions and those vary across the map even among the so called experts. We can only hope the Kings "brain trust" has improved over the guys who drafted PapaG.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#13
My original intent was to start a thread, which I'm doing and give my thoughts on the possible benefits of remaining patient, and building the team from within. But someone on Sactown Royality beat me to it, and did a very good job. So rather than be redundant, or be accused of plagiarism, I've decided to post his article. He makes good points, on both sides of the issue. My point would be, that if your going to go through a rebuild, then pick the route you want to take, and then stick with it. I think the one thing you shouldn't do, is switch horses half way through.

That said, there is a point where both paths can come together, the trick is to have it happen naturally, and not force it. Here's the article:

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018...ar-power-be-an-asset-for-the-sacramento-kings
Personally I would have rather read your thoughts on this. I don't read StR. You could have acknowledged that they have a similar post without acquiescing to them. They're a different message board with different members and different POVs. Over the years, the rwo boards have actually disagreed about key things like players, philosophies, etc. more than they have agreed.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#14
MOD NOTE: A couple of posts have been edited. If you want to make personal comments to/about another member, do it via private message. Thanks.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#15
I'm not quite sure the point of the article either. Even the Warriors signed a top level free agent in Durant. I think we all understand Sacramento has to build a core of stars via the draft. From that point we can hope to sign a free agent that will put us over the top. It's why many of us are so passionate about who we pick at 2 because it will likely be a defining point for the next 5-10 years. The current stars are not likely on the roster yet with the possible exception of Giles so this pick is critical to get that guy. Is that guy Doncic or Porter or Bagley or Bamba? We all have our opinions and those vary across the map even among the so called experts. We can only hope the Kings "brain trust" has improved over the guys who drafted PapaG.
Sure, but before that they won a title without a Durant and beat him in the playoffs too so I don't think they went and thought they could actually sign Durant until Draymond convinced him otherwise.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#16
Regarding the thread topic, the Kings really have no choice but to be patient here. We see where it's gotten them by making trades every season and the talent they actually do have, they get rid of. So the goal here is to build some team chemistry, see yearly improvements from the prospects and hopefully one or two of them turns into a building block moving forward. If not, then its time to assemble the youth and a draft pick(s) and try to acquire a star that may be available or disgruntled.
 
#17
I'm currently leaning towards Bagley at #2.
I don’t share the enthusiasm toward Bagley. While I think he’ll be able to score and rebound, there are just too many things I don’t like or am skeptical about the rest of his game to want to invest. I do love his quick jump ability though.

Bagley’s not even in my top 6, which I realize places me in the vast minority.
 
#18
Let me put it this way since I can get really long winded sometimes. If Fox had the exact same numbers from this year and I went and looked at his game logs and the numbers were bad and then all the sudden in March and April he averages 16ppg and 5apg, I'd have something to be excited about. You could say that he's turning the corner. But that's not the case. His numbers were all over the place from month to month, not showing much improvement. Kemba Walker was even worse than him his rookie year so it's not like he's done for but if you check out the top PGs in the league, most of them probably had good rookie years. Curry, Wall, Paul, Lillard, Irving and Westbrook all had really good to solid rookie years. Walker, Conley, and Lowry didn't. So you start to get a feel for what category Fox has a chance of landing in and unless he's a complete outlier, that first group is out and now we have to hope he lands in this second group. He could wind up as the best PG of all time but the numbers are slowly telling you where he's probably going to wind up.

I don't quite agree with 206fan comparison Fox to Curry since they were 4 years apart as rookies but the odds of Fox reaching that group's levels have now dropped considerably after his rookie campaign. We all know that every player doesn't come into the league guns blazing but we also know that each year the player doesn't develop basically lowers the odds of them ever developing into a really good player. There are obviously outliers there but the odds are against most of our players at the moment. We don't even have a single player currently on the team with the potential that Curry and Klay had their rookie years.

We're putting our money on a player with a horrible rookie season (Fox), a 25 year old solid player who more than likely doesn't have much of a ceiling (Bogdan), a 24 year old great shooter with terrible handles and improving but shaky defense (Buddy), a 21 year old that has regressed offensively (Skal) and a kid we haven't seen play healthy since high school (Giles). That's 5 core players with massive question marks and the two with the least amount of question marks are older and don't have the time nor the odds of developing as the younger guys do. The odds simply aren't there for us and while I'm not ready to write them off, I'm not going to bank on them being anything like Golden State or even the Nuggets. Basically we're playing against house money right now and it's not a foregone conclusion that we're going to lose but the odds are not in our favor at the moment. I think we still need to acquire our best player to have a shot at the playoffs in a couple years.
Fox's numbers compare much better to walls rookie season when using a per minute basis. I definitely get what you're saying though but I still believe fox can be a John Wall level player.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#19
I don’t share the enthusiasm toward Bagley. While I think he’ll be able to score and rebound, there are just too many things I don’t like or am skeptical about the rest of his game to want to invest. I do love his quick jump ability though.

Bagley’s not even in my top 6, which I realize places me in the vast minority.
You aren't totally alone. ;)
 
#20
Fox's numbers compare much better to walls rookie season when using a per minute basis. I definitely get what you're saying though but I still believe fox can be a John Wall level player.
https://www.basketball-reference.co...+Wall&y2=2011&player_id2=walljo01&idx=players

Superficially their counting stats are fairly close but look down in the advanced stat area. Wall would have been the best player on the Kings while Fox was considered one of the worst in the NBA when it came to VORP.

I've got my fingers crossed on the kid though.
 
#21
Very optimistic article and he directly tried to compare the Kings players with the Warriors players. He brings up the point that the Kings are younger at a random point, but Curry and Klay were MUCH better.

24yearold Curry: 22.9pts 6.9asts 4.0rebs 45/45/90
22yearold Klay: 16.6pts 2.2asts 3.7rebs 42/40/84

24yearold Buddy: 13.5pts 1.9asts 3.8rebs 44/43/87
20yearold Fox: 11.6pts 4.4asts 2.8rebs 41/30/72

Also, Curry's rookie year was much better than Fox's. For those of you who might not remember, Curry was considered neck and neck with Tyreke for ROY until Tyreke's 20-5-5 campaign. 21 yearold Curry's rookie stats are very good 17.5pts 5.9asts 4.5rebs on 46/43/85. Compare it to Fox's in bold. Fox showed flashes, but Curry showed actual production. So yeah, I do have a problem with the writer's approach. He claims that we don't need a superstar because we might already have one on the roster and not know it just like the Warriors, except he completely ignored the fact that Curry had an outstanding rookie year. Also, why does he bring up draft position? It doesn't matter where Curry was drafted. He's a superstar. GS knew in his rookie year that he was going to be very special not because of glimpses, but because of production.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what the point of the article was. No one has suggested that we should blow up the rebuild by trading Fox and Co. for a superstar. No one has suggested that we should trade the #2 pick for a superstar. I think it's very clear that we are rebuilding. The FO is very high on Fox.

I think a better article subject should've been on drafting a superstar with the #2 pick. You need a superstar to win in the NBA. BUT, I do think the article was very well written. I disagree with the author, but it was worth a read.
Well Curry did play almost 10 minutes more a game as a rookie that Fox did.:) Curry also started 77 games.
 
#22
Well Curry did play almost 10 minutes more a game as a rookie that Fox did.:) Curry also started 77 games.
If we draft Luka it will be interesting how he fits with Fox. Fox will be for sure the third and perhaps 4th best ball handler in the half court. Not sure how he’s going to feel about playing off the ball so much. It would detract from his game.
 
#23
I don’t share the enthusiasm toward Bagley. While I think he’ll be able to score and rebound, there are just too many things I don’t like or am skeptical about the rest of his game to want to invest. I do love his quick jump ability though.

Bagley’s not even in my top 6, which I realize places me in the vast minority.
He's got no right hand which is really scary imo. He switches left even if forces a tough shot.
 
#24
He's got no right hand which is really scary imo. He switches left even if forces a tough shot.
That and his issues on the defensive end.

That said, I won't be shocked if he ends up as one of the best, if not the best, player out of this draft. That's the problem with this draft. There's so many good players that have a chance to be special. It's all about guessing correctly which one(s) will be.
 
#25
If we draft Luka it will be interesting how he fits with Fox. Fox will be for sure the third and perhaps 4th best ball handler in the half court. Not sure how he’s going to feel about playing off the ball so much. It would detract from his game.
Lol. Fox might have the fastest burst going left with the ball from a standstill on the planet. How does that factor into your 'for sure the third and perhaps 4th best ballhandler" appraisal ?
 
#26
I didnt read the article but building thru player development is the obvious path the kings will take. There will be some bulking and cutting the next few summers..

Essentially this boils down to the Kings NOT going full try-hard win-now despite the lack of a 2019 1st rd pick. Which is the correct move, trial by fire it's a good situation for young players. Theres enough young talent here where the loss of the pick Isn't gonna matter if many of these players resign.

If the Kings young core continues to improve but they still dont win theres gonna be major building blocks to be had at the top of the 2020 and 2021 drafts, then its time to go full tryhard. Ibelieve Mo Bamba is the obvious choice at #2
 
Last edited:
#27
Lol. Fox might have the fastest burst going left with the ball from a standstill on the planet. How does that factor into your 'for sure the third and perhaps 4th best ballhandler" appraisal ?
Because in the half court it’s how you change pace and read the defense. Bogi is already better than Fox which is why he had the ball so often in the half court. Luka’s gift is his passing and dissecting a defense. That put Fox third.
 
#28
Because in the half court it’s how you change pace and read the defense. Bogi is already better than Fox which is why he had the ball so often in the half court. Luka’s gift is his passing and dissecting a defense. That put Fox third.
Is going from a standstill to warp speed in 1 step not a part of changing pace? Lol....

Doesn't sound like youre making much of a sales pitch for Doncic either. What does all this passing and dribbling add up to? Their gonna pass and dribble circles around the wests elite teams? Thats the plan? Thats what you want to build from within?
 
#29
Is going from a standstill to warp speed in 1 step not a part of changing pace? Lol....

Doesn't sound like youre making much of a sales pitch for Doncic either. What does all this passing and dribbling add up to? Their gonna pass and dribble circles around the wests elite teams? Thats the plan? Thats what you want to build from within?
I’m not making a sales pitch for Doncic. I am wondering how he fits?
 
#30
I’m not making a sales pitch for Doncic. I am wondering how he fits?
Well u are asking the right questions then cuz theres plenty of discussion here bout Luka but not nearly enough about fit and POTENTIAL REDUNDANCIES.........

I agree with you that Bogdan is very skilled with the ball, first saw him on Partizan playing PG to fill in for the injured Satoransky.

I also Wonder about Justin Jacksons fit with Doncic..... Dont think their exactly a complementary platoon. If the kings feel he's got a Hedo Terkoglu type skillset, how many of those skills overlap with luka's too?

This thread is about building from within, I hope its a defense, JJJ and Bamba would be anchors.
 
Last edited: