Building from within:

#31
Lol. Fox might have the fastest burst going left with the ball from a standstill on the planet. How does that factor into your 'for sure the third and perhaps 4th best ballhandler" appraisal ?
How often did he use that skill last year? He was a terror going coast to coast but that only amounts to one, maybe two plays a game.

In the half court he very rarely ever attacked off the dribble from a standstill. I'm hoping we start seeing more of that this year because if he doesn't have that then there isn't a whole lot of substance to his game.
 
#32
How often did he use that skill last year? He was a terror going coast to coast but that only amounts to one, maybe two plays a game.

In the half court he very rarely ever attacked off the dribble from a standstill. I'm hoping we start seeing more of that this year because if he doesn't have that then there isn't a whole lot of substance to his game.
Constantly.... Look at all those buzzer beaters.... Thats how he played. It's how he's always played. It's why the Kings drafted him 5th.
 
#35
I fully expect this summer to be a win now venture because IMO Vlade/Joerger’s jobs are on the line. They might feel they need material progress this year for their own safety. Vlade a year ago I believe said he’d step down by next year if things weren’t looking up (although he’d be on the hot seat anyway).

Add to this the somewhat embarrassment of handing over a top pick to the Celtics and the restless paying customer, and I don’t expect long road moves. The cap will be used on vets IMO, instead of more draft picks, and vets will be played to win IMO. We can hope those vets will be young with upside and will benefit the team in the long run
 
#36
I fully expect this summer to be a win now venture because IMO Vlade/Joerger’s jobs are on the line. They might feel they need material progress this year for their own safety. Vlade a year ago I believe said he’d step down by next year if things weren’t looking up (although he’d be on the hot seat anyway).

Add to this the somewhat embarrassment of handing over a top pick to the Celtics and the restless paying customer, and I don’t expect long road moves. The cap will be used on vets IMO, instead of more draft picks, and vets will be played to win IMO. We can hope those vets will be young with upside and will benefit the team in the long run
I fear this might happen too, precisely for the reasons you have mentioned.

That said, the number of available roster spots will make it tough for the management to do anything drastic in terms of FA signing if they are so inclined. Assuming we add both our picks to the roster this year, we'll have Randolph, Kosta, Willie, Buddy, Skal, Fox, Bogs, Giles, Justin, Mason + 2 picks on the roster. Assuming Shump and Temple pick their options (likely, I think), we will have only one open spot (not considering two way players, since they are not relevant for FAs). If they decide to re-up Bruno/Nigel, we're out of roster spots.

I think that's a good position to be in. However, it increases chances of doing something drastic in terms of trade. I do hope that we can turn some of our vets that are not part of the future into some useful future assets, and so far, the management has been good about not tying up future cap space and flexibility. The pressure to deliver now might prompt them to forego a conservation approach though.
 
#37
I fully expect this summer to be a win now venture because IMO Vlade/Joerger’s jobs are on the line. They might feel they need material progress this year for their own safety. Vlade a year ago I believe said he’d step down by next year if things weren’t looking up (although he’d be on the hot seat anyway).

Add to this the somewhat embarrassment of handing over a top pick to the Celtics and the restless paying customer, and I don’t expect long road moves. The cap will be used on vets IMO, instead of more draft picks, and vets will be played to win IMO. We can hope those vets will be young with upside and will benefit the team in the long run
That's a scary thought because this team isn't ready to win now with it's core players. There shouldn't be a whole lot of pressure on them to win this year because that will cause them to make rash decisions that possibly mortgage their chances of winning in the future.

The only pressure should be make damn sure you don't draft a bust (Vlade) and make damn sure you get rid of the archaic offense (Joerger). But putting pressure on wins with a bunch of 1st, 2nd and 3rd year players mixed in with a handful of washed up or low level vets is a losing proposition.
 
#38
That's a scary thought because this team isn't ready to win now with it's core players. There shouldn't be a whole lot of pressure on them to win this year because that will cause them to make rash decisions that possibly mortgage their chances of winning in the future.

The only pressure should be make damn sure you don't draft a bust (Vlade) and make damn sure you get rid of the archaic offense (Joerger). But putting pressure on wins with a bunch of 1st, 2nd and 3rd year players mixed in with a handful of washed up or low level vets is a losing proposition.
I actually think the team can make a big jump this year. With the exception of Vince, we are bringing back most of the core guys from last year. It can be argued that getting a 27 win team back is not a guarantee of success. Quite the opposite in fact. However, I thought the team showed greater promise and cohesion in the second half. Plus, we played multiple rookies and second year players a bunch of minutes. It is reasonable to expect at least some of them to show a significant improvement. Add in a #2 pick, and Giles, who should be familiar with the system despite being a rookie, and that's potential for significant improvement.

Not everything will come together, but even if we see improvements from some of the kids, and contributions from our rookies, I think we should be much improved. Here's to hoping for a great new season (can't wait).
 
#39
I actually think the team can make a big jump this year. With the exception of Vince, we are bringing back most of the core guys from last year. It can be argued that getting a 27 win team back is not a guarantee of success. Quite the opposite in fact. However, I thought the team showed greater promise and cohesion in the second half. Plus, we played multiple rookies and second year players a bunch of minutes. It is reasonable to expect at least some of them to show a significant improvement. Add in a #2 pick, and Giles, who should be familiar with the system despite being a rookie, and that's potential for significant improvement.

Not everything will come together, but even if we see improvements from some of the kids, and contributions from our rookies, I think we should be much improved. Here's to hoping for a great new season (can't wait).
Yup. A 10 game improvement would be a significant step in the right direction, and they'd still most likely have extreme cap flexibility next summer.

Avoiding giving up a top10 pick wpuld be a major win and would be something that would be noticed league wide as progress.
 
#40
I actually think the team can make a big jump this year. With the exception of Vince, we are bringing back most of the core guys from last year. It can be argued that getting a 27 win team back is not a guarantee of success. Quite the opposite in fact. However, I thought the team showed greater promise and cohesion in the second half. Plus, we played multiple rookies and second year players a bunch of minutes. It is reasonable to expect at least some of them to show a significant improvement. Add in a #2 pick, and Giles, who should be familiar with the system despite being a rookie, and that's potential for significant improvement.

Not everything will come together, but even if we see improvements from some of the kids, and contributions from our rookies, I think we should be much improved. Here's to hoping for a great new season (can't wait).
Yeah I mean I'd obviously have zero problem with it if the players improved and they started winning more games. Won't get any complaints out of me.

It's if the front office winds up making stupid moves to sacrifice the future to try and win right here and right now so they don't get canned. That's what's going to wind up pissing me and probably everyone else off. Right now is not the time to make any roster gambles because there are simply too many variables that have to fall into place for this team to even get to .500. They should make the moves when there is an obvious direction that the team is headed and we can't use last years 2nd half to make a judgment call on that because they played a whole bunch of teams who had no intention on trying to win games.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#41
Yeah I mean I'd obviously have zero problem with it if the players improved and they started winning more games. Won't get any complaints out of me.

It's if the front office winds up making stupid moves to sacrifice the future to try and win right here and right now so they don't get canned. That's what's going to wind up pissing me and probably everyone else off. Right now is not the time to make any roster gambles because there are simply too many variables that have to fall into place for this team to even get to .500. They should make the moves when there is an obvious direction that the team is headed and we can't use last years 2nd half to make a judgment call on that because they played a whole bunch of teams who had no intention on trying to win games.
I just don't see that happening. Vlade has worked too hard - with the apparent approval of Vivek - to get this team back on the right track. As long as they continue to go in the right direction (something I'm confident they are doing) we should be fine. The paying audience isn't solely about wins - they want to be entertained and see improvement. I believe they'll see both.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#42
At this point I don't think the Kings should get too caught up with fit. I think getting the best player regardless of position matters most. They can work on fit when they know who belongs and who doesn't.
Once again, I think you have to define fit. When I speak of fit, I'm not talking about positional fit, but skill set fit. If your building a team that is unselfish, and moves the ball and with players that move without the ball, then you don't draft an isolation player that pounds the ball no matter how good he is.
 
#43
Once again, I think you have to define fit. When I speak of fit, I'm not talking about positional fit, but skill set fit. If your building a team that is unselfish, and moves the ball and with players that move without the ball, then you don't draft an isolation player that pounds the ball no matter how good he is.
I think it depends how good the guys you have are. If you're building an unselfish team that is largely formed I'd agree with you, but if you're not sure that the guys you have are starters or NBA talents then I don't think you consider fit. I think you do draft based on organizational fit though in terms of personality or work ethic or similar characteristics.
 
#44
I'm currently leaning towards Bagley at #2 but based on what Vlade has said he wants, Doncic seems like more of the pick. To have a motion offense with lots of player movement, ball movement, shooting etc would make Doncic a great fit.
Agreed. I hope we stay put and make a solid choice with the 2nd pick.

Vlade has traded down the past two drafts so no doubt his phone is ringing off the hook as millions want Doncic.

It will be hard for Vlade to resist turning one asset into two and adding two young solid assets as we continue our rebuild, but i would rather he stay put and just select Doncic, Bagley, Porter and call it a day.

Given we have no picks next year this is the challenge Vlade will have and no doubt what opposition GMs are looking to leverage.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#46
Agreed. I hope we stay put and make a solid choice with the 2nd pick.

Vlade has traded down the past two drafts so no doubt his phone is ringing off the hook as millions want Doncic.

It will be hard for Vlade to resist turning one asset into two and adding two young solid assets as we continue our rebuild, but i would rather he stay put and just select Doncic, Bagley, Porter and call it a day.

Given we have no picks next year this is the challenge Vlade will have and no doubt what opposition GMs are looking to leverage.
I don't think it will be hard for Vlade at all. I think he's working towards a vision and, right or wrong, he's going to make the most of the #2 pick to help in that regard. Whoever he picks at #2 (and it's no secret I'm hoping it's Luka) will be an integral part of that vision right now, not a project player.
 
#48
I just don't see that happening. Vlade has worked too hard - with the apparent approval of Vivek - to get this team back on the right track. As long as they continue to go in the right direction (something I'm confident they are doing) we should be fine. The paying audience isn't solely about wins - they want to be entertained and see improvement. I believe they'll see both.
I think the Kings are going to make a pretty good leap in wins this year, especially with no draft pick to play down for, continued improvement from their core and the addition of Giles and the #2 pick. I think they will go all in for wins and I don’t think playing the young guys lots of minutes will be detrimental to that.

I am thinking they may improve by somewhere around 10 wins putting them on track for 35 to 40 wins. The problem with that is if they are on pace for 40 wins, say right before the trade deadline, that would mean they could possibly be in the playoff picture. People might start to calculate that they might just need to find 3 or 4 wins more to maybe squeeze into the playoffs.

Pressure might start to mount to make some kind of deal to make it happen. I would really hate to see the front office make a deal that would give up assets for an aging, 2-month rental veteran that might just push them over the top to get those 3 or 4 wins so they could get swept by the warriors in the first round. Or worse, make the deal and still miss out on the playoffs. I really want to see the Kings stay the course, continue building, and continue developing. I don’t want to see them bring some last-minute rental in and disrupt the team chemistry either.

I fear the temptation will be hard to resist, some fans will clamor for it, there may even be a vocal contingent on here demanding it. I hope the front office has the discipline to resist and stay the course.

I think the ideal scenario would be, the Kings approach that 40 wins with their rebuilding team and they are actively in the playoff hunt up at least up until the last week or two of the season. The team gets to experience some consistent winning, they get to experience actually competing for a playoff spot and then probably fall short by just that 3 or 4 games at the end of the season. I think this would impress upon them the need to compete every game and would make them hungrier for the next season when I think they will have legitimately improved enough to make the playoffs and maybe even not be the last seed.

Just my little fantasy.
 
#49
I think the Kings are going to make a pretty good leap in wins this year, especially with no draft pick to play down for, continued improvement from their core and the addition of Giles and the #2 pick. I think they will go all in for wins and I don’t think playing the young guys lots of minutes will be detrimental to that.

I am thinking they may improve by somewhere around 10 wins putting them on track for 35 to 40 wins. The problem with that is if they are on pace for 40 wins, say right before the trade deadline, that would mean they could possibly be in the playoff picture. People might start to calculate that they might just need to find 3 or 4 wins more to maybe squeeze into the playoffs.

Pressure might start to mount to make some kind of deal to make it happen. I would really hate to see the front office make a deal that would give up assets for an aging, 2-month rental veteran that might just push them over the top to get those 3 or 4 wins so they could get swept by the warriors in the first round. Or worse, make the deal and still miss out on the playoffs. I really want to see the Kings stay the course, continue building, and continue developing. I don’t want to see them bring some last-minute rental in and disrupt the team chemistry either.

I fear the temptation will be hard to resist, some fans will clamor for it, there may even be a vocal contingent on here demanding it. I hope the front office has the discipline to resist and stay the course.

I think the ideal scenario would be, the Kings approach that 40 wins with their rebuilding team and they are actively in the playoff hunt up at least up until the last week or two of the season. The team gets to experience some consistent winning, they get to experience actually competing for a playoff spot and then probably fall short by just that 3 or 4 games at the end of the season. I think this would impress upon them the need to compete every game and would make them hungrier for the next season when I think they will have legitimately improved enough to make the playoffs and maybe even not be the last seed.

Just my little fantasy.
We disagree on who we want at 2 but this is a good post. No need to rush or overpay for mediocrity and being that it's unlikely that we attract a high-end FA without being on the cusp of being a contender. Developing these players has to be the focus and like you agree that a 10 win increase is the goal. If not some people will be getting fired.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#50
I think the Kings are going to make a pretty good leap in wins this year, especially with no draft pick to play down for, continued improvement from their core and the addition of Giles and the #2 pick. I think they will go all in for wins and I don’t think playing the young guys lots of minutes will be detrimental to that.

I am thinking they may improve by somewhere around 10 wins putting them on track for 35 to 40 wins. The problem with that is if they are on pace for 40 wins, say right before the trade deadline, that would mean they could possibly be in the playoff picture. People might start to calculate that they might just need to find 3 or 4 wins more to maybe squeeze into the playoffs.

Pressure might start to mount to make some kind of deal to make it happen. I would really hate to see the front office make a deal that would give up assets for an aging, 2-month rental veteran that might just push them over the top to get those 3 or 4 wins so they could get swept by the warriors in the first round. Or worse, make the deal and still miss out on the playoffs. I really want to see the Kings stay the course, continue building, and continue developing. I don’t want to see them bring some last-minute rental in and disrupt the team chemistry either.

I fear the temptation will be hard to resist, some fans will clamor for it, there may even be a vocal contingent on here demanding it. I hope the front office has the discipline to resist and stay the course.

I think the ideal scenario would be, the Kings approach that 40 wins with their rebuilding team and they are actively in the playoff hunt up at least up until the last week or two of the season. The team gets to experience some consistent winning, they get to experience actually competing for a playoff spot and then probably fall short by just that 3 or 4 games at the end of the season. I think this would impress upon them the need to compete every game and would make them hungrier for the next season when I think they will have legitimately improved enough to make the playoffs and maybe even not be the last seed.

Just my little fantasy.
Considering the 8th seed had 47 wins, the 9th seed had 46 and the 10th had 42....the Kings have quite a mountain to climb to even be in the playoff talk, let alone win over 30+ games
 
#51
Considering the 8th seed had 47 wins, the 9th seed had 46 and the 10th had 42....the Kings have quite a mountain to climb to even be in the playoff talk, let alone win over 30+ games
I thought the same thing, but agree that if we show marked improvement and are clearly adopting a modern NBA identity as far as playstyle, that we should stay the course and strike in FA after this coming season when we will be flush with cap space. That should have been, and has seemed to be, the plan all along.

Just hope we don't trip when we can squint and maybe see a finish line coming up. I don't think we will, and I try to stay positive until given reason not to. (mostly)
 
#52
I thought the same thing, but agree that if we show marked improvement and are clearly adopting a modern NBA identity as far as playstyle, that we should stay the course and strike in FA after this coming season when we will be flush with cap space. That should have been, and has seemed to be, the plan all along.

Just hope we don't trip when we can squint and maybe see a finish line coming up. I don't think we will, and I try to stay positive until given reason not to. (mostly)
I don't think its coincidence all these contracts are coming off the books next year. we collected bunch of young guys, we add #2/Giles to the mix, use a season to sort out what we have, then make the moves accordingly next year.
 

Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
Contributor
#53
I don't think its coincidence all these contracts are coming off the books next year. we collected bunch of young guys, we add #2/Giles to the mix, use a season to sort out what we have, then make the moves accordingly next year.
Hold on. Did you just insinuate that the Kings FO may actually have, and are executing.....a plan??? Be still my anxious heart! ;)
 
#54
I don't think its coincidence all these contracts are coming off the books next year. we collected bunch of young guys, we add #2/Giles to the mix, use a season to sort out what we have, then make the moves accordingly next year.
It isn't. When they nabbed Ken Catanella from Detroit, Vlade was grabbing the cap guru he wanted running the franchise.

"He joined the Pistons after several years at the NBA League Office, where he directed the NBA’s salary cap and basketball analytics efforts." --

source: https://www.nba.com/kings/roster/ken_catanella


When he grabbed Brandon Williams, whom was well respected in Philly, I think he nabbed a capable, possible, successor.

Some like to beat the Vlade sucks drum, and he has made mistakes, like everyone in life. However I think he has done a pretty decent job at possibly setting us up as a franchise to finally crawl out of the murky swamp and maybe be relevant, and just as important, competent again.

Time will tell. As it always does.
 
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kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#55
I thought the same thing, but agree that if we show marked improvement and are clearly adopting a modern NBA identity as far as playstyle, that we should stay the course and strike in FA after this coming season when we will be flush with cap space. That should have been, and has seemed to be, the plan all along.

Just hope we don't trip when we can squint and maybe see a finish line coming up. I don't think we will, and I try to stay positive until given reason not to. (mostly)
What value does all that cap space have when no top tier free agents aren't willing to come here? If anything, they would use Sacramento as a leverage to get a better counter deal from other teams interested and once again, the Kings would be left with 3rd or 4th tier free agents which at that point I'd rather they just continue signing short term deals or keep working the phones and make a trade for a top player.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#56
I think they did a lot of cherry picking when comparing Golden State to our players.

Steph Curry came out of the gate as a legitimate shooter and put up something like 18ppg his rookie year. They minimize it by saying it took him 4 years to become a 20ppg player. Not a single Kings player is even as good as defensive sieve rookie Steph Curry.

Klay Thompson essentially had the same year Buddy Hield had this year except he was 21 while Buddy was 24. They minimize it by saying he was underwhelming and finished outside the top 5 for the rookie of the year campaign.

Harrison Barnes came into the league as a solid defender, which none of our rookies have shown.

No one would have known that Draymond was going to turn into this incredible swiss army knife that allowed the Warriors to play a style of basketball that has never worked in the past. This guy went from shaky small forward to elite defender who can defend all 5 positions as well as distribute the ball as well as any big man ever has. I have a lot of hope in Giles but even I can't be that unrealistic.
To be fair, he put up 18 pig because he was playing in a Nellieball system that, while a precursor to the current high tempo offense the Warriors play now, pretty much disregarded legible basketball for the sake of stat inflation.
 
#57
What value does all that cap space have when no top tier free agents aren't willing to come here? If anything, they would use Sacramento as a leverage to get a better counter deal from other teams interested and once again, the Kings would be left with 3rd or 4th tier free agents which at that point I'd rather they just continue signing short term deals or keep working the phones and make a trade for a top player.
Look, I understand that narrative. However the only way you make it change, and the probability of it eventually changing vs, the probability of us forever being a punch line favors us, is through building a competent F.O., as well as showing some moxy and upside in this coming season.

Top tier players want to have fun, play for a possible contender, a team making buzz and on the upswing, etc. Then there is money. Everyone needs that, sadly.

Edit: to be clear, I have long advocated and stand by us not going for the gusto in F.A. until next offseason. Which means we have to show something, on and off the court, this upcoming season that entices top tier talent to look at us seriously, to buck the trend and relieve Kings fans of that defeatist (warranted, until it isn't) mindset.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#58
Look, I understand that narrative. However the only way you make it change, and the probability of it eventually changing vs, the probability of us forever being a punch line favors us, is through building a competent F.O., as well as showing some moxy and upside in this coming season.

Top tier players want to have fun, play for a possible contender, a team making buzz and on the upswing, etc. Then there is money. Everyone needs that, sadly.

Edit: to be clear, I have long advocated and stand by us not going for the gusto in F.A. until next offseason. Which means we have to show something, on and off the court, this upcoming season that entices top tier talent to look at us seriously, to buck the trend and relieve Kings fans of that defeatist (warranted, until it isn't) mindset.
I suppose the worst thing the Kings can do is continue to settle for the bottom of the barrel rather than making an attempt at a top free agent, despite how unlikely it may seem.