Buddy gone?

#91
I love basketball, and now retired, I spend a ridiculous amount of time watching basketball. Mostly college, but a lot of NBA basketball. I like to feel as though I'm fairly well educated about the game. After over 50 years of watching everyone one from Oscar Robertson, Bob Pettit (my idol, and someone I knew) Wilt Chamberlain, etc. to Lebron and Michael, I think at worse, I've picked up a few tricks of the trade. In general, there are players with impact stats, and players with worthless stats.

There was a Kings game a week or so ago where Giles ended up (don't quote me) with like 3 pts, 3 or 4 boards and a blocked shot. If you were only looking at those stats, you wouldn't be impressed. But if you watched that game, you would know that we wouldn't have won that game without Giles. Basketball is a game of runs, and who has the momentum last. Points and rebounds are important, but what's more important is what you do in a crucial moment of the game, when your team has momentum and is on a run.

We tend to remember that blocked shot with 5 seconds left in the game and we were up by two, because it saved the game. That's when a stat is meaningful. Scoring 12 pt's in the 4th quarter when your down by 25 pts and your on the floor with our 3rd stringers isn't meaningful. So where am I going with this? This thread for the most part has been about Buddy, and so is this post. Let me start by saying I really like Buddy, but probably not as much as he likes himself.

I say that because there are times when Buddy only cares about Buddy, and frankly, oddly enough, some of his best games are when he has that attitude. Buddy plays his worse basketball when he tries to be something he's not. He's a scorer! He's not a play maker! To be a play maker you have to see the game in an entirely different way, and Buddy isn't capable of that, at least not right now. I hate saying that he doesn't have good BBIQ because it implies that perhaps he's stupid, and he's not. Say it anyway you want, feel for the game, BBIQ, whatever? He's just lacking in that area.

Example: Two games ago, Buddy was bringing the ball up the court. The Kings were on a bit of a run. Barnes had run to the left corner, and Buddy dribbled the ball to the left side of the court toward Barnes direction. As he neared the sideline, and the edge of the 3pt circle, the other team doubled on him and tried to trap him there. Wisely, Buddy saw the trap coming and did a spin move back to his left to escape the trap. OK, so far so good. But then, he immediately did a reverse spin back to his right, and right back into the trap. Why?

Now this possession didn't end up in a turnover. Buddy managed to throw the ball over the top to Fox. It got tipped by a defender, but Fox beat everyone to the loose ball, and managed to get a contested shot off which he missed. So, OK, no turnover, but Buddy wasted around 15 seconds of the shot clock, and killed any momentum we had. We still won the game, so no harm, no foul, right? However, this is why Buddy didn't play one second of the 4th quarter in the Toronto game. It was a game, where just one mistake at the wrong time could be the difference between winning and losing. And Buddy is prone to making mistakes.

Unfortunately, we still lost the game, and I tend to agree with those that say Buddy should have been on the floor for that last play. He has a record of hitting crazy shots at the end of the game, and at worse, he would have been someone they had to guard. Maybe Walton decided to simply dance with the one he brought. That they deserved to finish the game. If we had won, no one would have complained. Well, mostly no one!

I think Buddy wants to be a team player, but doesn't know how. He has a scorers mentality that overrides everything, and when he tries to be unselfish, that's when he makes mistakes. He'll get the ball in the corner, and he'll be wide open. Perfect right? But instead of shooting, he puts the ball on the floor and drives the baseline toward the basket. (passing up the wide open corner shot) As he nears the basket he tries to make a bounce pass to Bjelica on the other side of the basket. Of course the ball never reaches Beli.

This is Buddy really trying to be a team player, but not understanding exactly what that means. Being a team player doesn't mean being unselfish to the point of passing up the very shot your being paid the big bucks to make. It means taking that shot!!!! Your teammates worked to get you that shot, a shot that if it goes in, helps the team win. And winning is what it's all about. Buddy needs to watch how Lou Williams plays. Williams almost disappears when he enters the game, until he doesn't.

You tend not to notice him, until suddenly there he is, wide open in the corner with the ball, and your brain is silently screaming, NO!! Where Buddy needs to improve is not on becoming a better play maker, but a better defender. I watch him closely every game, and without a doubt, he's the worse defender on the team. Not because he's incapable, he's not, but because he simply doesn't try. Everyone points to his defense on Beal, and rightly so, because it exposed Buddy as someone who can be an excellent defender when he wants to be. He did a terrific job on Beal in that game.

Can anyone tell me another game where he defended someone like Beal that well? Doesn't leap out at you does it? Normally, if you focus only on Buddy on the defensive side of the ball, this is what you'll see. He'll pick up his man on the floor. He'll then start ball watching and slowly start drifting away from his man toward the basket and toward whomever has the ball. He'll drift as far as 20 feet at times. In the meantime, his man, realizing Buddy is no longer paying attention to him, leaves his current position and moves to an empty spot on the floor, usually a corner.

Sometimes Buddy gets burn't and sometimes he dodges the bullet and doesn't. But far too often, it's his man left wide open that's hitting the open three. Please don't take my word for this. Next game, if there is a next game, take some time to watch Buddy on the defensive side of the ball. Someone said that on most nights that Buddy is the 2nd best player on the floor. I guess it's how you define 2nd best.

Example: Buddy in his last 10 games. 16.6 ppg - 41.6% fgp - 45.6% 3pp - 3.6 rpg - 2.2 apg. Barnes in his last 10 game. 15.8 ppg - 49.5% fgp - 46.8% 3pp - 4.2 rpg - 3.2 apg. I think I can safely say that Barnes is the far superior defender, so you tell me, who is the better player in the last 10 games?

A couple of final questions. Why does Buddy like to dribble the ball into the corner, and then break the golden rule of picking up his dribble, which leaves him prone to being trapped. Why when Buddy gets the ball does he immediately establish his pivot foot, making himself easier to guard. Why when he gets the ball does he almost immediately put the ball on the floor establishing a dribble, when it appears to be without purpose. Most of the time it doesn't bite him in the butt, but, when it does, it seems to happen at the most inopportune times

I'm not posting this to pick on Buddy. I really like Buddy, and think he can be a very important player on the team, if he wants to be. If Buddy honestly wants to be a team player, then he has to start caring more about the team, than he does starting, or how many minutes he he gets. If Buddy is only interested in being a star and putting up big numbers, then I think he would fit right in on the T Wolves team.
Spot on
 
#93
Nets not keeping Theo Pinson?

Pinson’s shooting (29 percent), 3-point percentage (18.8) and offensive rating (81) all took steps back from his rookie season. His offensive rating was the worst in the NBA for players who topped 20 appearances on Basketball Reference. Even if he isn’t a roster casualty, or if the season doesn’t resume, Pinson could find himself on the move in the offseason. He was mentioned by Bleacher Report as a part of a potential package (along with Jarrett Allen, Taurean Prince and a first-round pick) to try to land Kings sharp-shooter Buddy Hield.
3 hours ago – via Brian Lewis @ New York Post
 
#94
19-20 is final year of 4yr contract for Prince, Pinson has a trade restriction so I don't see benefit to the potential package
other than 1st rd pick and Allen contract

UGH!
 
#95
If Markannan is available then saw an interesting 3 team proposed trade on Real GM:

Chicago sends: Markennan
Chicago receives: 13th and Nemanja

New Orleans sends: 13
New Orleans Receives: Hield

Sacramento sends: Hield, Markannen
Sacramento Receives: Markennan
 
#96
If Markannan is available then saw an interesting 3 team proposed trade on Real GM:

Chicago sends: Markennan
Chicago receives: 13th and Nemanja

New Orleans sends: 13
New Orleans Receives: Hield

Sacramento sends: Hield, Markannen
Sacramento Receives: Markennan
No way we do this because Markennan would start over Bagley which would cause an issue in the FO.

I’m still liking Hield/13/Holmes for Myles Turner
 
#97
If Markannan is available then saw an interesting 3 team proposed trade on Real GM:

Chicago sends: Markennan
Chicago receives: 13th and Nemanja

New Orleans sends: 13
New Orleans Receives: Hield

Sacramento sends: Hield, Markannen
Sacramento Receives: Markennan
I don’t think the new GM will be moving Markannen this offseason. Lavine, maybe.
 
Isn’t Gobert going to be looking for a supermax, too? I agree, not a good fit.
He can’t get a Superman when he’s traded.

When are we gonna stop looking at fit when a guys hasn’t proven anything we know what happens when we had the second pick and did this. Bagley can come off the bench and play 30mpg still but getting a defensive anchor would be huge
 
He can’t get a Superman when he’s traded.

When are we gonna stop looking at fit when a guys hasn’t proven anything we know what happens when we had the second pick and did this. Bagley can come off the bench and play 30mpg still but getting a defensive anchor would be huge
To be more precise, not a good cap fit. He’d work fine on the court, but a team with a (near) maxed Gobert and Fox, plus Barnes/Bogi on high numbers, is really kneecapped long term. Also, costs us Bagley, by definition. He’s too goofy, as well. They like Pollard type of goofy, not “fall-out with the best player from acting like an idiot” type of goofy.
 
To be more precise, not a good cap fit. He’d work fine on the court, but a team with a (near) maxed Gobert and Fox, plus Barnes/Bogi on high numbers, is really kneecapped long term. Also, costs us Bagley, by definition. He’s too goofy, as well. They like Pollard type of goofy, not “fall-out with the best player from acting like an idiot” type of goofy.
You’re right, that’s why my number one option is Myles Turner this off season
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
No way we do this because Markennan would start over Bagley which would cause an issue in the FO.

I’m still liking Hield/13/Holmes for Myles Turner
I have never understood this love affair with Turner. I think it must have something to do with the Willy Cauley-Stein pick back when. It's not that I dislike Turner, or that I wouldn't have him on my team, it's that a lot of people seem to overrate him, and are willing to give up more than he's worth to acquire him.

Lets just do a comparison between Turner and Holmes whom you have included in this trade.
Turner: 29.37 mpg - 11.8 ppg - 45.1% fgp - 33.6% 3pp - 75.0% ftp - 6.5 rpg - 0.8 stl's - 2.2 blks

Holmes: 28.52 mpg - 12.8 ppg - 65.4% fgp - 00.0% 3pp - 80.0% ftp - 8.3 rpg - 1.0 stl's - 1.5 blks

Maybe, just maybe, you could make an argument that Turner is a slightly better all around player in that he blocks a few more shots, and is able to hit one out of every three 3's he takes. I don't think so, but I can see the argument. So if you wanted to trade Holmes for Turner straight up, I could see that trade. But, to throw in the 13th pick in the draft and Buddy Hield as well is pure insanity. By the way, Turner has had just one year where he shot the three well at 38%, and in his first 4 years, he averaged around 1.7 three's a game. Last season he jumped up to over 4 threes a game, and his percentages dropped.

This is not to disparage Turner. As I said, I wouldn't mind having him on the team, but I'm not going to overvalue him. In Bagleys short career, he has put up better scoring and rebounding numbers than Turner has in any one year he's been in the NBA. And Bagley hasn't even scratched the surface of what he's capable of. The thing that bothers me about Turner, is that he hasn't really improved his game very much since his first year in the league. I always look for growth in a player. Which makes me think, that what you see at this point is what your going to get.
 
I have never understood this love affair with Turner. I think it must have something to do with the Willy Cauley-Stein pick back when. It's not that I dislike Turner, or that I wouldn't have him on my team, it's that a lot of people seem to overrate him, and are willing to give up more than he's worth to acquire him.

Lets just do a comparison between Turner and Holmes whom you have included in this trade.
Turner: 29.37 mpg - 11.8 ppg - 45.1% fgp - 33.6% 3pp - 75.0% ftp - 6.5 rpg - 0.8 stl's - 2.2 blks

Holmes: 28.52 mpg - 12.8 ppg - 65.4% fgp - 00.0% 3pp - 80.0% ftp - 8.3 rpg - 1.0 stl's - 1.5 blks

Maybe, just maybe, you could make an argument that Turner is a slightly better all around player in that he blocks a few more shots, and is able to hit one out of every three 3's he takes. I don't think so, but I can see the argument. So if you wanted to trade Holmes for Turner straight up, I could see that trade. But, to throw in the 13th pick in the draft and Buddy Hield as well is pure insanity. By the way, Turner has had just one year where he shot the three well at 38%, and in his first 4 years, he averaged around 1.7 three's a game. Last season he jumped up to over 4 threes a game, and his percentages dropped.

This is not to disparage Turner. As I said, I wouldn't mind having him on the team, but I'm not going to overvalue him. In Bagleys short career, he has put up better scoring and rebounding numbers than Turner has in any one year he's been in the NBA. And Bagley hasn't even scratched the surface of what he's capable of. The thing that bothers me about Turner, is that he hasn't really improved his game very much since his first year in the league. I always look for growth in a player. Which makes me think, that what you see at this point is what your going to get.
Come on man holmes for Turner straight up smh maybe they counter with Warren for Fox straight up.

Just doing per game stats isn’t doing him justice especially when turner is contributing to a playoff team and well Holmes team is in the lottery. Turner is a good 3 point shooter that’s not something to scoff at when he’s a center, with Fox/Bagley being non shooters that’s big to open the lane for there pick and roll offense. To say Turner just blocks a few more shots is an insult to an all nba defender. He’s an elite rim protector year in year out blocks are an overrated stat and he’s still atop at those, but he was 6th this year percentage differential with six feet of the rim. Pacers defensive rating is 107.86 when Turner is on the floor, it shoots up to 111.32 when Turner is off. To compare Holmes to him is a flat insult holmes has been a career back up let’s not do that.

On the Bagley part I still don’t see this scoring that everyone praises about unless we do per36 which I hate. Yes he’ll score more than Turner but I’ll bet anything he won’t impact the game like turner does. It’s not like Bagley is out there getting his own most his points were spoon feed, I’m not saying Bagley won’t score but I doubt he’ll be a good number two option.

I also don’t get how you can say Turner stopped growing as a player. His team started making the playoffs his second year from then on they don’t have time to spend on his offensive game developing while making the playoffs. They have offensive weapons so Turner has to play his role which he’s doing great at. He’s still 23 what’s to say he doesn’t come here where we afford to give him more scoring options and he doesn’t improve. He doesn’t get those options when he has Oladipo/Sabonis/Brogdan to do the scoring and creating.

If it were up to me I’d do the buddy/13 for Turner deal than move barnes to PF where he rightfully belongs in the era.
 
I have never understood this love affair with Turner. I think it must have something to do with the Willy Cauley-Stein pick back when. It's not that I dislike Turner, or that I wouldn't have him on my team, it's that a lot of people seem to overrate him, and are willing to give up more than he's worth to acquire him.

Lets just do a comparison between Turner and Holmes whom you have included in this trade.
Turner: 29.37 mpg - 11.8 ppg - 45.1% fgp - 33.6% 3pp - 75.0% ftp - 6.5 rpg - 0.8 stl's - 2.2 blks

Holmes: 28.52 mpg - 12.8 ppg - 65.4% fgp - 00.0% 3pp - 80.0% ftp - 8.3 rpg - 1.0 stl's - 1.5 blks

Maybe, just maybe, you could make an argument that Turner is a slightly better all around player in that he blocks a few more shots, and is able to hit one out of every three 3's he takes. I don't think so, but I can see the argument. So if you wanted to trade Holmes for Turner straight up, I could see that trade. But, to throw in the 13th pick in the draft and Buddy Hield as well is pure insanity. By the way, Turner has had just one year where he shot the three well at 38%, and in his first 4 years, he averaged around 1.7 three's a game. Last season he jumped up to over 4 threes a game, and his percentages dropped.

This is not to disparage Turner. As I said, I wouldn't mind having him on the team, but I'm not going to overvalue him. In Bagleys short career, he has put up better scoring and rebounding numbers than Turner has in any one year he's been in the NBA. And Bagley hasn't even scratched the surface of what he's capable of. The thing that bothers me about Turner, is that he hasn't really improved his game very much since his first year in the league. I always look for growth in a player. Which makes me think, that what you see at this point is what your going to get.
Turner went from a decent rookie to a good floor-spacing and elite rim-protecting C anchoring the 3rd best defense in the league in his 4th year. I maintain the only reason he didn't make an all-defense team last year is because Gobert and Embiid exist. His shooting numbers may have fallen but he's still a young, defensively C with a valuable skillset in today's league. He's worlds better than Holmes or Bagley for that matter even in this down year.

Turner can get you his 12 and 7 compared to Bagley's 20 and 10 or whatever and his team will be better off for it every single time. Old-school bigs don't matter anymore and neither do the counting stats they put up. Turner is elite defensively to which Holmes is merely solid and Bagley is actively terrible, and he's decent enough at spacing the floor to which Holmes and Bagley are both non-factors.
 
Turner went from a decent rookie to a good floor-spacing and elite rim-protecting C anchoring the 3rd best defense in the league in his 4th year. I maintain the only reason he didn't make an all-defense team last year is because Gobert and Embiid exist. His shooting numbers may have fallen but he's still a young, defensively C with a valuable skillset in today's league. He's worlds better than Holmes or Bagley for that matter even in this down year.

Turner can get you his 12 and 7 compared to Bagley's 20 and 10 or whatever and his team will be better off for it every single time. Old-school bigs don't matter anymore and neither do the counting stats they put up. Turner is elite defensively to which Holmes is merely solid and Bagley is actively terrible, and he's decent enough at spacing the floor to which Holmes and Bagley are both non-factors.
Also we’re quick to just assume Bagley is a 20/10 guy when he hasn’t even done it for 10 games.

Like you said Turner is legit and just going off 12/7 does him no justice
 
Also we’re quick to just assume Bagley is a 20/10 guy when he hasn’t even done it for 10 games.

Like you said Turner is legit and just going off 12/7 does him no justice
I actually think he can get 20/10, but I'm not sure why it matters. His best case scenario is probably Sabonis ironically enough. Sabonis went from an inefficient outdated rookie to averaging 18/12/5 with positive defense (albeit still poor shooting). But I have a hard time believing he's going to get to a point where he averages 3 assists, let alone 5. Sabonis was low-usage and Bagley's anything but.

If that's the case, Turner might actually be the best fit with Bagley. He and Porzingis are about the only unicorn bigs you can put next to Bagley and actually make it work if all you get from Bagley is 6th-man esque counting stats.
 
I would love Myles Turner. As someone said above he would be a great fit next to Bagley and is on a really friendly team contract. He would be better with the Kings because he would have a bigger role here than he does in Indiana.

To get a good player you have to give up good assets. No team is stealing Myles Turner from the Pacers for spare parts.
 
I actually think he can get 20/10, but I'm not sure why it matters. His best case scenario is probably Sabonis ironically enough. Sabonis went from an inefficient outdated rookie to averaging 18/12/5 with positive defense (albeit still poor shooting). But I have a hard time believing he's going to get to a point where he averages 3 assists, let alone 5. Sabonis was low-usage and Bagley's anything but.

If that's the case, Turner might actually be the best fit with Bagley. He and Porzingis are about the only unicorn bigs you can put next to Bagley and actually make it work if all you get from Bagley is 6th-man esque counting stats.
I actually think Markannen might fit this model also if allowed to be a spacer on offense and a post defender on Defense.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Come on man holmes for Turner straight up smh maybe they counter with Warren for Fox straight up.

Just doing per game stats isn’t doing him justice especially when turner is contributing to a playoff team and well Holmes team is in the lottery. Turner is a good 3 point shooter that’s not something to scoff at when he’s a center, with Fox/Bagley being non shooters that’s big to open the lane for there pick and roll offense. To say Turner just blocks a few more shots is an insult to an all nba defender. He’s an elite rim protector year in year out blocks are an overrated stat and he’s still atop at those, but he was 6th this year percentage differential with six feet of the rim. Pacers defensive rating is 107.86 when Turner is on the floor, it shoots up to 111.32 when Turner is off. To compare Holmes to him is a flat insult holmes has been a career back up let’s not do that.

On the Bagley part I still don’t see this scoring that everyone praises about unless we do per36 which I hate. Yes he’ll score more than Turner but I’ll bet anything he won’t impact the game like turner does. It’s not like Bagley is out there getting his own most his points were spoon feed, I’m not saying Bagley won’t score but I doubt he’ll be a good number two option.

I also don’t get how you can say Turner stopped growing as a player. His team started making the playoffs his second year from then on they don’t have time to spend on his offensive game developing while making the playoffs. They have offensive weapons so Turner has to play his role which he’s doing great at. He’s still 23 what’s to say he doesn’t come here where we afford to give him more scoring options and he doesn’t improve. He doesn’t get those options when he has Oladipo/Sabonis/Brogdan to do the scoring and creating.

If it were up to me I’d do the buddy/13 for Turner deal than move barnes to PF where he rightfully belongs in the era.
First, no, Turner is not a good 3pt shooter. A good 3pt shooter is a player that shoots 40% or better from the three. A border line good 3pt shooter is a player that shoots between 37% and 40%. Turner shot slightly over 38% in one of the his five years in the league, and he averaged just over 2 attempts a game. This season he doubled his attempts, and shot just over 33% from the three, which is not good. I rate him as a good enough 3 pt shooter that you leave him open on the perimeter at your own risk.

I've already said that he's a good shotblocker and gave him that edge over Holmes. I really wasn't trying to compare Holmes to Turner as part of a one on one trade, but to show you that the gap between Holmes and Turner overall isn't that great. If your question is would I rather have Turner than Holmes, I would probably say yes. But would I throw in the 12th pick in the draft, and one of the best shooters in the NBA as well? Hell no! That's insanity! If I'm doing that, then I'm getting back a star, or a player that looks like he'll be a star. That's not Turner.

I'm not disagreeing with you on trying to acquire Turner, I'm disagreeing with you on how much your giving up to get him. Your giving up three players for one. Your factually trading away, 32.6 points and 12.5 rebounds a game and getting 11.8 points and 6.5 rebounds in return. I don't care how good a defender he is, he's not going to compensate for that. And I'm not even speculating on what the draft pick might contribute.

As far as Turner not growing, well just go look up his overall stats from when the came into the league until now. When he came into the league his overall shooting percentage was a good 50%. In his five years in the league, he's managed to work it down to 45%. Your theory about going to a team and getting a chance to show your ability is something I agree with, but in this instance, it applies more to Holmes than Turner. Turner has averaged right around 28 minutes a game every year he's been in the league. Holmes by contrast averaged only 16:47 minutes a game until he arrived at the Kings. This year he averaged just a tick under 29 mpg, and he put up the best numbers of his career, while his efficiency rating went up.