Brockman needs to start
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Sparky6string
Bench
The other day I suggested he get minutes at center and I was scoffed at. I don't think he should start but split the minutes evenly with Hawes with Brockman off the bench and see what happens. He can't be worse than May.
xrzn
Starter
JT doesn't mind getting physical and going for rebounds and getting dirty. You can see he has heart and effort, and I'm not going to judge him on anything from tonight with all the BS calls that went against him and the rest of the Kings. Hawes constantly does nothing.
Showtime
Starter
He didn't lead the league in fouls last season because of BS calls. He isn't consistent in his scoring, and when his unbridled energy gets him in foul trouble, he usually ends up doing hardly anything at all. So what you say sets him apart from Hawes is the same thing that is limiting him to have off nights like Hawes.
And I haven't seen anything in Spencer that shows he is afraid of contact.
He consistently is ignored. You can't remould every player that a coach gets his hands on. Hawes is a finesse big man who is primarily an offensive threat. The longer the Kings ask him to be Ben Wallace, the worse off this is going to get. There comes a point in time where you realize your limitations, and your strengths, and you play to them. The team isn't doing that with Hawes.
Just look at the last Houston game. He had the height on Scola, and they gave him the ball and allowed him to work on the block. He had 24 points and 9 rebounds. The first game against Houston, he was virtually ignored on the block, and JT got all the touches. He was left out and the team didn't go to him on the block, and he ended up with 6 points and 9 rebounds.
The team just needs to use him correctly.
Nice analysis... it's so much more fun to read an in-depth comment instead of the usual "so-and-so is crap" or "BENCH whats-his-name". Thanks.
xrzn
Starter
That's exactly the problem, he got that label last year and do you think magically the refs are going to shy away from calling a foul on him this year no matter how silly? Most calls I've seen on him are calls that other bigs would not get. He gets a lot of the ticky-tack calls no one should get called. Hawes, on the other hand, from the games I've seen of him, is afraid to bump and post up and go in. When he goes, he usually gets blocked or misses. Thompson has the same problem, but Thompson's problem looks most fixable because he goes up strong and gets near the rim.
Until Hawes realizes shooting anywhere but from the key is a bad idea, he's useless.
It's apparent his strength is to shoot a jumper he can't make. If he can't become Ben Wallace, he needs to be gone. No team wins a championship with a center that's going to be a Brad Miller clone.
He had 24 points and 9 rebounds on Scola? If that's what it takes for Hawes to have a good guy (to not be ignored against 6'9 forward/center), then the Kings are doomed.
Yeah, see, the problem is that you can't really rebuild the team around every single player. You make the biggest adjustments to your playbook for your best few players, and after that you do what you can, but the farther down the list you go, the more players may have to accommodate the playbook rather than the other way around.
It sucks for Hawes, but the coaching staff and players are going to do their best to win games, and fairness is going to be relatively low on the priority scale.
Yea not sure that Hawes only good game being v Scola is helping an argument. Hawes has shown to be a finesse center that shies away from contact and loves taking jumpshots. As many have noted, you need a big man down low first, shooting Js second. I don't think we need Ben Wallace but man for now I'd settle for Nenad Krstic...
Showtime
Starter
So you would like to think his foul troubles come from reputation rather than him actually fouling people?
What? You aren't making sense. Hawes loses the ball because he doesn't go hard enough, and JT loses the ball because he goes in too hard, and yet JT's mistake is fine and Hawes's isn't fine. wow
One thing I've noticed is that JT gets a LOT more touches on the block. And yet, he doesn't have the skills as Hawes when it comes to finishing. JT usually will try to force a move, even if it isn't there. I guess that's the "going strong" part you were referring to. But, he doesn't consistently even attempt his hook shot, and even when he gets TO the rim with an aggressive move, he immediately looses all aggression and tries for a soft layup which tends to miss. I've never seen a player with his physical talents look afraid of dunking.
Meanwhile, Hawes doesn't have JT's power. But what he does have is better footwork and better finishing skills. He can hit hooks with both hands, and he can finish with his left. What he isn't good at is recognizing the double team and passing out of it. He often is so eager to score, that a help defender can pick his pocket. Part of this, I believe, comes from his eagerness to get whatever shots he can get because he isn't a focal point of the offense.
Both players have their positives and negatives in the post, but I don't see how anybody can say one's mistakes are fine while the other ones are intolerable.
What? He's their most skilled high post player. He's a better passer than JT, but JT gets more assists because he usually gets the ball more and is more apt to see the double team if his shot is falling.
If it's apparent to you that all he can do is hit a 17 footer, than maybe you haven't been watching enough. It's apparent that shooting the 17+ shot is the only thing the kings want out of him on offense, but that doesn't mean it's all he can do.
Scola is one of the best PF's in the league when it comes to overall play. Did you even watch the playoffs? He is a very physical player who can post up larger guys and is very skilled. He's no slouch, and judging him on his height alone just tells me you haven't seen enough of him.
Showtime
Starter
Answer me this question:
How can Hawes post up on the block first when he's asked to set a screen by the 3 pt line and then roll out?
When he's not screening, how can Hawes post up on the block when players don't give him the ball as much as JT?
You say it's his preference and style, and it's clear by watching the games that he's doing what is asked of him. He's setting screens very high out, he's rolling out to be a threat when his defender gives him the 15 footer, or he's getting at the top of the key to be a passing threat and to spread the floor, and he's not being put in a position to be a focal point of the post offense. He can't demand Westphal to give him the ball.
Showtime
Starter
But explain to me how giving the ball to Hawes on the block more is totally going to destroy the team's offense? It isn't catering to him, because they don't have a problem making JT a high post threat. Being more balanced and making Spencer a weapon rather than a liability doesn't seem that difficult if all it means is evening out the post up touches between JT and Hawes.
Sparky6string
Bench
You may be on to something here. If we approached him as more of a Bargnani type player it might help. A center that draws the defensive center out can help on offense, and he can still work on his toughness and post game in the process and slowly implement them. He does need to hit those shots though.
I think the fact that hawes isn't getting it done right now should not be confused with starting brockman. Brock is a tough guy and a hard worker but he has little basketball skill. He's undersized, lacking in athleticism, shooting ability and passing skills. Should he provide energy off the bench for 5-10 minutes? Sure. Anything more than that is foolish.
The kings may very well need a starting center until (if) hawes develops but no one on the team currently is the answer.
The kings may very well need a starting center until (if) hawes develops but no one on the team currently is the answer.
Kings Faithful
Starter
Nice analysis... it's so much more fun to read an in-depth comment instead of the usual "so-and-so is crap" or "BENCH whats-his-name". Thanks.
Yeah I'm really getting sick of that. There is a difference between sharing criticism and trashing on our own players. Can someone please tell me what Spencers incentive for not showing "heart and hustle?". He is going through a rough spell. He's only 21 for Gods sake, give him time. We gave Donte an entire year last year and he showed almost nothing, now look at him! He looks like he has a future! Spencer has been getting crapped on since the beginning of the season, except for the one game where he put up big numbers (I wonder how that happens if he has no heart or hustle?).
Kings Faithful
Starter
Hawes has a possibility of being a 18-20 and 10 player while Brockman will struggle to put those kind of numbers in 1 night at any point of his career... Not saying I don't like Brockman. He could be a great role player, but Spencer has a big ceiling.
King Baller
All-Star
Chuck Hayes is the starting center for the Houston Rockets at 6' 6" and 238 pounds. At 6' 7" and 255 Jon Brockman just might pull it off. If Jon is getting torched put Hawes in. Gasol and Randolph were having their way in the paint. Brockman comes in and BAM! Randolph starts to miss a shot or two. Gasol learned quick not to put his hand on Jon's shoulder during rebounding.
The Bottom line in Jon Brockman is tough and the Kings need that in the starting line up.
KB
The Bottom line in Jon Brockman is tough and the Kings need that in the starting line up.
KB
King Baller
All-Star
Jon "I will show you my skills: BAM!" Brockman
KB
KB
bajaden
Hall of Famer
First off, Brockman's not going to start at center anytime soon. Don't get me wrong. I like Brockman. I'm the one that was happy we drafted him. But he's not a starting center. For the moment, and probably for the forseeable future, Hawes is our starting center. So just get used to it. He's a young player thats still trying to figure out things. He has a head coach thats still trying to figure out how best to use the talent he has.
Thompson and Hawes have been contrasted here tonight. And though they have singularly similar talents, they have entirely different styles. One is a contempory dancer, and the other is a hip hop dancer. Or street dancer if you will. Neither style is bad. As a matter of fact, when refined, they could become very complimentry to one another. Its just going to take time.
Thomas Edison was once asked ( I'm assuming that all of you know who Thomas Edison is. I was watching the Amazing Race last night and most of the contestants didn't know where Prague was) after 5000 failed experiments, if he was discouraged. He said quite the contrary. There are only so many failures before you succeed, and I've just elliminated 5000 of them. Patience, mi amigo's..
Thompson and Hawes have been contrasted here tonight. And though they have singularly similar talents, they have entirely different styles. One is a contempory dancer, and the other is a hip hop dancer. Or street dancer if you will. Neither style is bad. As a matter of fact, when refined, they could become very complimentry to one another. Its just going to take time.
Thomas Edison was once asked ( I'm assuming that all of you know who Thomas Edison is. I was watching the Amazing Race last night and most of the contestants didn't know where Prague was) after 5000 failed experiments, if he was discouraged. He said quite the contrary. There are only so many failures before you succeed, and I've just elliminated 5000 of them. Patience, mi amigo's..
bloom
Starter
I really like John “Peaches” Brockman but I like him off the bench (great nickname Brick). He really does need to see more floor time and he would be great as another energy guy with the 2nd unit. So I would love to see him get some more time. He should be ahead of Sean May but play behind Spencer, being the 1st big off the bench.
I am really surprised that people are dumping on Spencer this year. It’s not like the guy has played terrible (while not being able to put it together) these last 3 years. The 1st 2 years he was doing great but he’s having problems this year. I just don’t like dumping on him like what some people are doing when he’s shown that he can play.
There’s been a few problems I’ve seen with Spencer this year - besides the fact that he’s played bad this season – 1st. There hasn’t been that many plays called for him. JT is getting the ball more. If coach just calls some simple plays for Spencer at the beginning of the game maybe it can get him going. 2nd. Last year Spencer and JT worked really well together and unfortunately I haven’t seen the same kind of chemistry this year and I want to know why. Why aren’t these 2 working together like last year?
I would love to see the Kings to sign another big man’s coach – Chris Webber (and Vlade but Vlade isn’t interested right now). Both JT and Spencer could learn so much from these 2.
Every single Kings player needs to go through several rounds of slamming the ball in practice. I don’t know why we can’t jam the ball with authority. We always come up soft.
I am really surprised that people are dumping on Spencer this year. It’s not like the guy has played terrible (while not being able to put it together) these last 3 years. The 1st 2 years he was doing great but he’s having problems this year. I just don’t like dumping on him like what some people are doing when he’s shown that he can play.
There’s been a few problems I’ve seen with Spencer this year - besides the fact that he’s played bad this season – 1st. There hasn’t been that many plays called for him. JT is getting the ball more. If coach just calls some simple plays for Spencer at the beginning of the game maybe it can get him going. 2nd. Last year Spencer and JT worked really well together and unfortunately I haven’t seen the same kind of chemistry this year and I want to know why. Why aren’t these 2 working together like last year?
I would love to see the Kings to sign another big man’s coach – Chris Webber (and Vlade but Vlade isn’t interested right now). Both JT and Spencer could learn so much from these 2.
Every single Kings player needs to go through several rounds of slamming the ball in practice. I don’t know why we can’t jam the ball with authority. We always come up soft.
I mentioned this in a thread a few days ago. If SAR is our big man coach, he needs to start working more with Hawes and Thompson or they need to find someone who will. Just my two cents, of course, but I don't think it's all Hawes' fault.
bloom
Starter
I totally agree. We need someone (and I'm not saying that SAR isn't - I don't know what he's doing) who is going to work with them (together) and get them going - together...and yeah, I also don't think that it's all Spencer's fault.
And keep in mind, Spence is actually two months YOUNGER than Donté.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
If Spencer had a shaky jumper he needed to work on, or a developing hookshot, or if he hacked people too much or whatever...all of those things can be worked on. Age + experience helps.
But a lack of toughness and willingness to bang? That concerns me. I was no pro athlete, but I played into college (small college) and have known and watched many others who played for longer than that, and toughness, physicality...I am not sure how much that can be learned. Guys who have it usually had it in high school. Earlier even. Its a personality, an outlook, not a skill. Plays out like a skill though. In any contact sport that tough physical player is going to be able to accomplish things far beyond his (or her) talent level, while that skilled softie is going to be sitting on the sidelines by the time the games mean something.
I just don't know how to fix what Spencer is lacking, and I'm not at all sure that time and experience will do it. My remaining hope is the shreds of that teenage arrogance and strut he used to display -- seemed like maybe a base to build a competitive toughness on. But you just can't get unmanned out there night after night or sooner or later even if you didn't start out a wuss your confidence is going to be so shot you will start playing like one anyway. You just get used to being beat and come to accept it. You see that snarl Casspi has? Or that unnatural calm that Reke has? They weren't taught that. To say they were born with it might be an overstatement, but only by a little. It runs deep. Its who they are, not something they learned. I just don't know how you graft that onto somebody who at heart is afraid, or instinctually shies from contact, or just lacks that killer instinct.
That said, this is another silly thread. Whatever hope Spencer has is obviously going to come from patience and encouragement (here BTW it actually would be useful for him to be on a veteran winning team ala Vlade's time with the Lakers. To get mentored and learn from top guys. Absorb the culture and the spirit. Tougher on a young team.) Replacing him with ANY of our midget guys isn't going to help him or us. there's nothing to do but wait + maybe disable the snooze on Geoff's alarm.
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SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Chupacabra
Starter
If Houston can get away with starting Chuck Hayes (6'6) then i dont see why we cant try out Brockman at center. The defense is already terrible at the center position, it cant get much worse. Brockman would at least bring other qualities we lack at the position. Physical play and rebounding. Brockman also looks to have a nice touch on his midrange jumpshot. Give the guy alot more minutes i say.
*correction - Give Brockman 10-20 minutes per game to show how productive he can be and how he alters the the teams style of play. If we like what we see then move forward and increase Brockmans minutes.
*correction - Give Brockman 10-20 minutes per game to show how productive he can be and how he alters the the teams style of play. If we like what we see then move forward and increase Brockmans minutes.
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King Baller
All-Star
You all speak quite eloquently about the value of providing positive support to Spencers self image I like parts of Spences game. He shows flashes of toughness in the paint. Spencer is very young and I think his best role right now is the first big off the bench.
I suggest starting JT and JB. Those two can tenderize the opposing squad. Then bring Hawes in and let him develop agaisnt the other teams bench. Playing time can be determined by production. If Jon is producing he plays more and finishes and if Spence is rolling he gets the time and finishes the game. JT's time is going to be determined by his foul situation most nights.
Then at some point in the future when Spence turns into a beast he becomes the starter. Right now Spences body is preventing him from holding his spot in the paint. He needs time to add the muscle needed to defend NBA bigs.
KB
I like parts of Spences game. He shows flashes of toughness in the paint. Spencer is very young and I think his best role right now is the first big off the bench.I suggest starting JT and JB. Those two can tenderize the opposing squad. Then bring Hawes in and let him develop agaisnt the other teams bench. Playing time can be determined by production. If Jon is producing he plays more and finishes and if Spence is rolling he gets the time and finishes the game. JT's time is going to be determined by his foul situation most nights.
Then at some point in the future when Spence turns into a beast he becomes the starter. Right now Spences body is preventing him from holding his spot in the paint. He needs time to add the muscle needed to defend NBA bigs.
KB
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