Blow It Up

[hrdboild]

I agree with you both in principle @Livinthedream and @kb02 : Vlade's core hasn't worked out. Additionally, Barnes, Buddy, and Holmes are all aging out of any realistic playoff window. All of them should be moved during this season if possible. I'm just hoping Monte can package them somehow for a key player since all of these guys would be valuable on a contending team -- Buddy because of his shooting, Barnes because he's a solid veteran contributor for teams needing wings, and Holmes because he's a high-efficiency player on a reasonable contract.

As I've already said elsewhere, I think most of the players Monte has picked up are keepers. Haliburton, Mitchell, Davis, Metu, Jones, and Queta are the beginnings of a new younger core, but most of them are probably better as rotation players not starters. The main point of disagreement for me is that I still don't think moving Fox is addition by subtraction. We're seriously lacking in star power and go-to scorers. I'm open to trading him if it's an overall talent upgrade but I feel like that's going to be hard to accomplish while his value has cratered. He's young enough to fit with a new core and his contract is pretty reasonable for his production. And while us nerds tend to overvalue the high efficiency guys, NBA teams are built around stars. So for me the calculus is still Fox + ? until proven otherwise.

 

[kb02]

I agree with you both in principle @Livinthedream and @kb02 : Vlade's core hasn't worked out. Additionally, Barnes, Buddy, and Holmes are all aging out of any realistic playoff window. All of them should be moved during this season if possible. I'm just hoping Monte can package them somehow for a key player since all of these guys would be valuable on a contending team -- Buddy because of his shooting, Barnes because he's a solid veteran contributor for teams needing wings, and Holmes because he's a high-efficiency player on a reasonable contract.

As I've already said elsewhere, I think most of the players Monte has picked up are keepers. Haliburton, Mitchell, Davis, Metu, Jones, and Queta are the beginnings of a new younger core, but most of them are probably better as rotation players not starters. The main point of disagreement for me is that I still don't think moving Fox is addition by subtraction. We're seriously lacking in star power and go-to scorers. I'm open to trading him if it's an overall talent upgrade but I feel like that's going to be hard to accomplish while his value has cratered. He's young enough to fit with a new core and his contract is pretty reasonable for his production. And while us nerds tend to overvalue the high efficiency guys, NBA teams are built around stars. So for me the calculus is still Fox + ? until proven otherwise.

My calculus:

1. If Monte trades Hali, he better get an elite player in return. Otherwise, dude should be fired.
2. If Fox remains on the Kings, he should be moved to the bench and operate as a microwave 6th man. I'm going to get heat for this, but Fox morphs the offense so much that he ends up negatively impacting everyone else on the court. Move him to the bench, let him go 100 miles an hour, score 20+ game, and maybe he'll be a net positive for the first time in his career.
3. That said, given his contract, age, and flashes thus far, Fox is the piece that should be moved. Because of his salary, moving Hali would require many more pieces, which may or may not be in the Kings interest.

 

[Turgenev]

I agree with you both in principle @Livinthedream and @kb02The main point of disagreement for me is that I still don't think moving Fox is addition by subtraction. We're seriously lacking in star power and go-to scorers. I'm open to trading him if it's an overall talent upgrade but I feel like that's going to be hard to accomplish while his value has cratered. He's young enough to fit with a new core and his contract is pretty reasonable for his production. And while us nerds tend to overvalue the high efficiency guys, NBA teams are built around stars. So for me the calculus is still Fox + ? until proven otherwise.

I agree with this. At this stage, no one else on the Kings can create their own shot and get buckets like Fox can. If you trade him you gotta get back something really good. Move the others first.

 

[hrdboild]

My calculus:

1. If Monte trades Hali, he better get an elite player in return. Otherwise, dude should be fired.
2. If Fox remains on the Kings, he should be moved to the bench and operate as a microwave 6th man. I'm going to get heat for this, but Fox morphs the offense so much that he ends up negatively impacting everyone else on the court. Move him to the bench, let him go 100 miles an hour, score 20+ game, and maybe he'll be a net positive for the first time in his career.
3. That said, given his contract, age, and flashes thus far, Fox is the piece that should be moved. Because of his salary, moving Hali would require many more pieces, which may or may not be in the Kings interest.

I know everyone loves Hali, but he's still the guy I trade if I'm Monte. And that's purely because I think Haliburton + Hield or Haliburton + Barnes are offers that get us in the conversation for Ben Simmons or Jaylen Brown (they keep denying it, but Boston is at least looking at offers) while any package centered around Fox puts us firmly in runner-up territory. Elite shooting and passing and positive defensive metrics on a rookie contract will get every GM in the league's attention. We have salary filler to match (Buddy, Barnes, Holmes, Len, Bagley's expiring, Harkless) and we have attractive draft picks with our endless history of suckitude.

Now obviously Monte would take all sorts of heat for trading the one guy who is outperforming expectations right now. The sensible thing is probably to keep Hali, dump Fox, and build with draft picks and cap space but here's where I split off from the "consensus online opinion" --- the volatility of first round draft picks is the reason we're so terrible. We've flushed all sorts of value down the drain already by picking the wrong players. Also, no star free agents care about our cap space because we're terrible. I don't care about the draft anymore. I don't care about cap space. Get me Fox and Simmons or Fox and Jaylen Brown or something similar and keep surrounding them with excellent roleplayers and we might actually have something. Being cautious and following the standard procedure of blowing it up and rebuilding around our youngest star and the expectation of top 5 picks to come is just going to prolong the treadmill of misery imo.

Obviously my strategy could backfire horribly if Halburton becomes a star elsewhere and/or Fox continues to regress but I'm more comfortable risking our future on known quantities than more high school phenoms.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I agree with you both in principle @Livinthedream and @kb02 : The main point of disagreement for me is that I still don't think moving Fox is addition by subtraction. We're seriously lacking in star power and go-to scorers. I'm open to trading him if it's an overall talent upgrade but I feel like that's going to be hard to accomplish while his value has cratered. He's young enough to fit with a new core and his contract is pretty reasonable for his production. And while us nerds tend to overvalue the high efficiency guys, NBA teams are built around stars. So for me the calculus is still Fox + ? until proven otherwise.

I agree that it would rash to trade Fox for subpar value simply due to fit concerns. That’s how you trade Kevin Martin for Carl Landry, and then see Martin subsequently flipped for James Harden.

 

[SacTownKid]

I know everyone loves Hali, but he's still the guy I trade if I'm Monte. And that's purely because I think Haliburton + Hield or Haliburton + Barnes are offers that get us in the conversation for Ben Simmons or Jaylen Brown (they keep denying it, but Boston is at least looking at offers) while any package centered around Fox puts us firmly in runner-up territory. Elite shooting and passing and positive defensive metrics on a rookie contract will get every GM in the league's attention. We have salary filler to match (Buddy, Barnes, Holmes, Len, Bagley's expiring, Harkless) and we have attractive draft picks with our endless history of suckitude.

Now obviously Monte would take all sorts of heat for trading the one guy who is outperforming expectations right now. The sensible thing is probably to keep Hali, dump Fox, and build with draft picks and cap space but here's where I split off from the "consensus online opinion" --- the volatility of first round draft picks is the reason we're so terrible. We've flushed all sorts of value down the drain already by picking the wrong players. Also, no star free agents care about our cap space because we're terrible. I don't care about the draft anymore. I don't care about cap space. Get me Fox and Simmons or Fox and Jaylen Brown or something similar and keep surrounding them with excellent roleplayers and we might actually have something. Being cautious and following the standard procedure of blowing it up and rebuilding around our youngest star and the expectation of top 5 picks to come is just going to prolong the treadmill of misery imo.

Obviously my strategy could backfire horribly if Halburton becomes a star elsewhere and/or Fox continues to regress but I'm more comfortable risking our future on known quantities than more high school phenoms.

If any move is made to win now then the longer he waits just digs a hole deeper for him to fall into. We already know the fit of the roster he's built is probably as bad as anything we've seen in the last 16 years or so. It's literally stacked in every way other than what works in the league right now. He didn't do all the damage but he's only made it worse so far and while that might be the directive it is what it is. How you watch someone like Harkless be as marginal as can be and then spend 8 million on him to come back is one of those tipping point moves. How he could bring back, or allow, Walton to be back is beyond comprehension. How is this so hard to understand? Just let other teams do the work for you. Copy off the good teams homework and if a team is giving away players like candy they probably aren't worth much. Follow league trends and wait to strike.

 

[kb02]

I know everyone loves Hali, but he's still the guy I trade if I'm Monte. And that's purely because I think Haliburton + Hield or Haliburton + Barnes are offers that get us in the conversation for Ben Simmons or Jaylen Brown (they keep denying it, but Boston is at least looking at offers) while any package centered around Fox puts us firmly in runner-up territory. Elite shooting and passing and positive defensive metrics on a rookie contract will get every GM in the league's attention. We have salary filler to match (Buddy, Barnes, Holmes, Len, Bagley's expiring, Harkless) and we have attractive draft picks with our endless history of suckitude.

Now obviously Monte would take all sorts of heat for trading the one guy who is outperforming expectations right now. The sensible thing is probably to keep Hali, dump Fox, and build with draft picks and cap space but here's where I split off from the "consensus online opinion" --- the volatility of first round draft picks is the reason we're so terrible. We've flushed all sorts of value down the drain already by picking the wrong players. Also, no star free agents care about our cap space because we're terrible. I don't care about the draft anymore. I don't care about cap space. Get me Fox and Simmons or Fox and Jaylen Brown or something similar and keep surrounding them with excellent roleplayers and we might actually have something. Being cautious and following the standard procedure of blowing it up and rebuilding around our youngest star and the expectation of top 5 picks to come is just going to prolong the treadmill of misery imo.

Obviously my strategy could backfire horribly if Halburton becomes a star elsewhere and/or Fox continues to regress but I'm more comfortable risking our future on known quantities than more high school phenoms.

I agree that Hali is the first name from other GMs. That rookie contract plus the production plus the flashes makes him 2X more valuable than Fox.

As for your other comments, I think Fox has a much lower ceiling than Hali and long term he'll end up at a level above a role player, but below that of a perennial all star. In other words, you trade Hali, it's not Fox and Brown or Fox and Simmons, but rather Brown and others or Simmons and others. Fox is a good, young player, but he's not a star. Never was one. Never will be.

 

[kb02]

I agree that it would rash to trade Fox for subpar value simply due to fit concerns. That’s how you trade Kevin Martin for Carl Landry, and then see Martin subsequently flipped for James Harden.

Not about fit. About talent.

 

[hrdboild]

If any move is made to win now then the longer he waits just digs a hole deeper for him to fall into. We already know the fit of the roster he's built is probably as bad as anything we've seen in the last 16 years or so. It's literally stacked in every way other than what works in the league right now. He didn't do all the damage but he's only made it worse so far and while that might be the directive it is what it is. How you watch someone like Harkless be as marginal as can be and then spend 8 million on him to come back is one of those tipping point moves. How he could bring back, or allow, Walton to be back is beyond comprehension. How is this so hard to understand? Just let other teams do the work for you. Copy off the good teams homework and if a team is giving away players like candy they probably aren't worth much. Follow league trends and wait to strike.

This is what I disagree with. We're pretty much the bottom of the league in every way. Market size, franchise value, cost of living, history of losing, very little team history to build off of. If we follow league trends we're going nowhere. Geoff Petrie built what he did by not following league trends. He invested heavily in international talent when most teams were ignoring it, brought in Chris Webber as his franchise player coming off multiple arrests and suspensions, traded Jason Williams for a more stable facilitator and shooter in Bibby when JWill was the talk of the league. If we're going anywhere we're going to have to get there by being creative or bold.

 

[Turgenev]

I know everyone loves Hali, but he's still the guy I trade if I'm Monte.

I would disagree with this. Hali moves the ball so well, is efficient, competitive, and has such a fun attitude. He's not a franchise leading player, but he is such a high quality glue guy and I think that is perhaps harder to replace than a high scoring guard that doesn't positively impact the defensive side of the ball. Again, move the other guys first.

 

[hrdboild]

I would disagree with this. Hali moves the ball so well, is efficient, competitive, and has such a fun attitude. He's not a franchise leading player, but he is such a high quality glue guy and I think that is perhaps harder to replace than a high scoring guard that doesn't positively impact the defensive side of the ball. Again, move the other guys first.

That's fair. I do love Hali's personality. He seems like the best kind of teammate. That's sortof our franchise MO though isn't it? We love great personalities to the point of overvaluing them as players. With Hali he's probably not overvalued though. He's just a really unique player who fits really well with the current meta of the NBA. The step back three is the new turnaround jumper (Jordan and Kobe) or crossover (AI). It's the one move everybody in the NBA wants because it's absolutely torching defenses wherever it's been deployed.

 

[steelevt]

I think part of the problem with fox this year is what was he told he needed to work on this off season? We know his main weakness was 3 pt shooting, free throws, and defense. I’m not sure bulking up was high on the list unless the bulking up was to help finish at the rim or help with defense but we all agree it was a mistake. He didn’t have a problem finishing at the rim based on % and of anything the weight prob slowed him down on defense. He should have worked on 3% and ft (which is getting better) and maybe do something to help with getting those assists up. Those would open up his game more vs bulking up to finish at the rim. Now none of us were there at the exit interview or in the know on what he was told to improve on. Maybe he was told his and ignored it or was told to bulk up but it basically wasted an off-season. If he just improves where he needs improvement, hopefully he can take a Ja like jump next season, preferably with us.

 

[Spike]

My calculus:

2. If Fox remains on the Kings, he should be moved to the bench and operate as a microwave 6th man. I'm going to get heat for this, but Fox morphs the offense so much that he ends up negatively impacting everyone else on the court. Move him to the bench, let him go 100 miles an hour, score 20+ game, and maybe he'll be a net positive for the first time in his career.

Fox is a starter in this league.

 

[TTown Kings]

Something appears to be in the works but I’m having trouble believing it will be anything but a short term deal to try to make the play-in and will set us back 3 years like Vlade’s Philly deal. I hope you all smack me about how wrong I am.

I fear this is the mostly likely outcome. Well, because, history.

 

[Turgenev]

That's fair. I do love Hali's personality. He seems like the best kind of teammate. That's sortof our franchise MO though isn't it? We love great personalities to the point of overvaluing them as players. With Hali he's probably not overvalued though. He's just a really unique player who fits really well with the current meta of the NBA. The step back three is the new turnaround jumper (Jordan and Kobe) or crossover (AI). It's the one move everybody in the NBA wants because it's absolutely torching defenses wherever it's been deployed.

My post/ perspective is not without it's fan bias. Hali is a guy I want to root for. The bigger names on the trade market (i.e., Simmons), less so. Having said that, I do like to think there is some basketball logic in there as well. Without digging into every detail - from a team building perspective - Hali contributes positively without the presenting the team building challenges to the same extent as the other Kings/ names on the market. If the Kings find someone with talent and a good head to put next to Hali and Fox (first choice) or Hali and Mitchell (second choice), I'll be happy. Of course, logic can take many forms and would be happy to simply see the Kings move on from their current predicament.

 

[kb02]

Per Amick, the Kings have the second worse attendance in the league. Hopefully the Kings take the last spot soon. I’m at a point where until there is major change, I hope everyone boycotts the Kings.

 

[gunks]

I know everyone loves Hali, but he's still the guy I trade if I'm Monte. And that's purely because I think Haliburton + Hield or Haliburton + Barnes are offers that get us in the conversation for Ben Simmons or Jaylen Brown (they keep denying it, but Boston is at least looking at offers) while any package centered around Fox puts us firmly in runner-up territory. Elite shooting and passing and positive defensive metrics on a rookie contract will get every GM in the league's attention. We have salary filler to match (Buddy, Barnes, Holmes, Len, Bagley's expiring, Harkless) and we have attractive draft picks with our endless history of suckitude.

Now obviously Monte would take all sorts of heat for trading the one guy who is outperforming expectations right now. The sensible thing is probably to keep Hali, dump Fox, and build with draft picks and cap space but here's where I split off from the "consensus online opinion" --- the volatility of first round draft picks is the reason we're so terrible. We've flushed all sorts of value down the drain already by picking the wrong players. Also, no star free agents care about our cap space because we're terrible. I don't care about the draft anymore. I don't care about cap space. Get me Fox and Simmons or Fox and Jaylen Brown or something similar and keep surrounding them with excellent roleplayers and we might actually have something. Being cautious and following the standard procedure of blowing it up and rebuilding around our youngest star and the expectation of top 5 picks to come is just going to prolong the treadmill of misery imo.

Obviously my strategy could backfire horribly if Halburton becomes a star elsewhere and/or Fox continues to regress but I'm more comfortable risking our future on known quantities than more high school phenoms.

Hopefully Boston is as optimistic about a Fox/Brown pairing as you are!!

Although…. Now that I’ve gone through the trouble of responding, I don’t know what we’d get back… certainly not Tatum. I’ve made my choice though, and I want us to go forward with Hali (2nd choice really. 1st would be seeing the Fox/Hali pairing under a competent coach).

I understand the frustration after a decade and a half worth of busts, but I’m still all in on rebuilding through the draft.

Just because we’ve had a run of terrible, terrible, idiot, awful, terrible morons as GMs and ownership that won’t commit to a tank, doesn’t mean building through the draft is the wrong way to go for a small market team with zero appeal to FAs. It’s pretty much the only route we have.

I’m also not a believer in Simmons. He’s a toxic player who would be coming to a garbage fire franchise, I can’t see that working out. And I don’t see any other impact “win now” trades out there either.

 

[hrdboild]

Hopefully Boston is as optimistic about a Fox/Brown pairing as you are!!

Although…. Now that I’ve gone through the trouble of responding, I don’t know what we’d get back… certainly not Tatum. I’ve made my choice though, and I want us to go forward with Hali (2nd choice really. 1st would be seeing the Fox/Hali pairing under a competent coach).

I understand the frustration after a decade and a half worth of busts, but I’m still all in on rebuilding through the draft.

Just because we’ve had a run of terrible, terrible, idiot, awful, terrible morons as GMs and ownership that won’t commit to a tank, doesn’t mean building through the draft is the wrong way to go for a small market team with zero appeal to FAs. It’s pretty much the only route we have.

I’m also not a believer in Simmons. He’s a toxic player who would be coming to a garbage fire franchise, I can’t see that working out. And I don’t see any other impact “win now” trades out there either.

To be clear, my trade offer was Haliburton and Barnes for Jaylen Brown. That would pair Haliburton and Tatum on the Celtics and Fox and Brown on the Kings.

 

[SacTownKid]

This is what I disagree with. We're pretty much the bottom of the league in every way. Market size, franchise value, cost of living, history of losing, very little team history to build off of. If we follow league trends we're going nowhere. Geoff Petrie built what he did by not following league trends. He invested heavily in international talent when most teams were ignoring it, brought in Chris Webber as his franchise player coming off multiple arrests and suspensions, traded Jason Williams for a more stable facilitator and shooter in Bibby when JWill was the talk of the league. If we're going anywhere we're going to have to get there by being creative or bold.

You have to recognize that the league isn't what it was though. It's now a game of who can trend their way to success. Size is a detriment. Defense is played with pure switchability. Physical dominance? Haha, welcome to a league built around Steph Curry and LeBron "I'll dominate when I have to" types. Now, I'm not talking championship caliber stuff, I'm talking just not suck which let's be honest, that's the mantra here. Creativity is out the window until the NBA decides to let the game build around a different type than someone whose best shot is uncontested at the half court line.

 

[gunks]

To be clear, my trade offer was Haliburton and Barnes for Jaylen Brown. That would pair Haliburton and Tatum on the Celtics and Fox and Brown on the Kings.

Oh for sure, I was just saying, in my roundabout way, that I’d be happy with a Boston trade if it’s Fox going out instead of Hali.

That being said, I wouldn’t HATE your proposed trade. Fox and Brown would be a talented duo, more balanced than Fox/Hali and an intriguing core for any coaches out there McNair might want to woo.

I’d be more psyched about this kind of trade than a Simmons rental (rental in that I’m sure he’ll try to force his way out within one season).

 

[The_Jamal]

watch this sarcastic response somehow lead to a 10 game win streak and we all will witness the power of @SLAB

the problem is, KANGZ universe is too strong so after the 10 game winning streak gets everyone on board, they're gonna lose 15 of their next 17 after that. Them the rules.

 

[The_Jamal]

Per Amick, the Kings have the second worse attendance in the league. Hopefully the Kings take the last spot soon. I’m at a point where until there is major change, I hope everyone boycotts the Kings.

Has to affect Vivek's wallet for him to finally realize a 35 win team with no upside isn't good enough.

 

[hrdboild]

Oh for sure, I was just saying, in my roundabout way, that I’d be happy with a Boston trade if it’s Fox going out instead of Hali.

That being said, I wouldn’t HATE your proposed trade. Fox and Brown would be a talented duo, more balanced than Fox/Hali and an intriguing core for any coaches out there McNair might want to woo.

I’d be more psyched about this kind of trade than a Simmons rental (rental in that I’m sure he’ll try to force his way out within one season).

Yeah, I'm not super thrilled about the idea of getting Simmons either because he's already set a precedent for not cooperating with his team if he can't get what he wants. That's why it's crazy Daryl Morey still thinks he's getting an All-Star for him. His trade value right now is one good player, a lottery ticket of some kind (raw prospect or draft pick), and salary filler.

 

[Warhawk]

So...some updates:

Sources -- Ben Simmons' agent meets with Philadelphia 76ers, but sides no closer to resolution (espn.com)

Paul told the Sixers that Simmons' mental health hurdles continue to preclude him from a return to play with the team, and the desire for a trade out of Philadelphia remains in place, sources said.

The Sixers are targeting top 25-caliber players for trades, but those kinds of assets have yet to be made available to them in offers, sources said. Some teams have even described the Sixers' asking price for a Simmons' deal as growing in price -- not declining, sources told ESPN.

From Amick at the Athletic, apparently (my subscription lapsed):

Accurate or not, this years-long pattern of Simmons struggling with confidence issues on the floor is seen by some interested teams as a separate matter from the mental-health struggles that he has cited as his reason for staying off it. In terms of Simmons’ eventual availability with a new team, the message has been sent that he would be ready to play after a few weeks of intensified conditioning and court action.

76ers Trying To Include Tobias Harris In Trade Of Ben Simmons - RealGM Wiretap

The Philadelphia 76ers have begun to attach Tobias Harris to their trade discussions of Ben Simmons, according to Brian Windhorst and Marc J. Spears of ESPN.

"That is the word out there because they can't necessarily get an All-Star they want in return right now, as the Sixers have continued their talks, they've talked to teams about trading Tobias and Ben."

Ben Simmons trade rumors: 76ers and guard remain in stalemate, contract scaring off some teams, per reports - CBSSports.com

First and foremost, teams already have to weigh so many different questions when considering a Simmons trade. Would his unique talents fit on our roster? Will he ever become an effective playoff player? Does he actually want to play for us, or would he try to force his way out again? Adding "when will he be able to play?" to the list isn't encouraging. There are only eight weeks between the trade deadline and the end of the regular season, so he would miss a huge chunk of the stretch run. How does that help a team looking to add Simmons for a playoff push?

In addition, it's hard not to feel cynical about the mental health aspect of this situation.

But while making the front-office rounds to get a better understanding of the Simmons studies happening in real time here, I stumbled on this somewhat surprising sentiment: The length (and size) of his contract, which has been seen by the Sixers as a major leverage point and justification for the steep asking price because the threat of free agency delayed, is actually a concern to some.

Most of the time, opposing teams would be enthusiastic about trading for a player who was locked up for the long term. With Simmons, though, it's understandable that some teams don't feel that way. First of all, you'd have to give up a huge haul to get him. Then you'd be committing a massive part of your cap space to someone who hasn't proven they can be one of the best players on a championship team. Plus there's the fact that he's already tried to force his way out of one city, and could do the same on your team down the line.

NBA Trade Rumors: Are Sixers attaching Tobias Harris in Ben Simmons trade talks? | PhillyVoice

That is the word out there, that because they can’t necessarily get an All-Star that they want in return right now, that as the Sixers have continued their talks, they have talked to teams about trading Tobias and Ben. That $72 million, which means you’d need $56 million or so to trade out to make it happen, you’d have to trade a minimum of $56 million to trade for those two guys.

So...lots of questions remain. But so far the vibe is that nobody is seriously biting on Simmons at the moment given all the perceived negatives, including mental health and the contract. Also, if they are trying to attach Harris' contract to Simmons ($72 million total!!!), that's just a complete non-starter.

 

[hrdboild]

You have to recognize that the league isn't what it was though. It's now a game of who can trend their way to success. Size is a detriment. Defense is played with pure switchability. Physical dominance? Haha, welcome to a league built around Steph Curry and LeBron "I'll dominate when I have to" types. Now, I'm not talking championship caliber stuff, I'm talking just not suck which let's be honest, that's the mantra here. Creativity is out the window until the NBA decides to let the game build around a different type than someone whose best shot is uncontested at the half court line.

I don't think this bears out if you watch the games though. We're getting crushed on the boards and second chance points, we're shooting ourselves out of games when easier shots are available from 10-15 feet, and our good shooters are getting crowded because we're making little or no effort to get the ball into the post and suck in help defenders. We bucked all of those trends in the last game against the Cavs and actually looked competent for a change. I know you're mostly reacting facetiously here but I feel like there's room for us to carve out a playoff team with a traditional post defender, two guards on the floor instead of 3 or 4, and an athletic wing or two who can switch up or down a position defensively without getting torched. It might not be a team that gets picked to contend in pre-season but if they play defense well enough they can at least be above .500 which gets you into the playoffs. And if we can get there with young players there will be time to add pieces each off-season and slowly elevate our ceiling.

 

[twslam07]

To be clear, my trade offer was Haliburton and Barnes for Jaylen Brown. That would pair Haliburton and Tatum on the Celtics and Fox and Brown on the Kings.

BOS Gets: Buddy Hield, Marvin Bagley, Derrick Favors, Davion Mitchell, & Tyrese Halliburton
BOS Gives: Al Horford, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, 2022 BOS 2nd

OKC Gets: Tristan Thompson, Mo Harkless, 2022 BOS 2nd, 2022 SAC 2nd, & 2023 SAC 2nd
OKC Gives: Derrick Favors & Kenrich Williams

SAC Gets: Al Horford, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, & Kenrich Williams
SAC Gives: Buddy Hield, Marvin Bagley, Tristan Thompson, Davion Mitchell, Mo Harkless, Tyrese Haliburton, 2022 SAC 2nd, & 2023 SAC 2nd


If we make that Holmes for Ish Smith and PJ Washington trade after, we’d be left with this roster:

PG - Fox / Smart / Smith
SG - Brown / Davis / Ramsey
SF - Barnes / Williams Woodard
PF - Washington / Metu
C - Horford / Jones / Len

 

[SacTownKid]

I don't think this bears out if you watch the games though. We're getting crushed on the boards and second chance points, we're shooting ourselves out of games when easier shots are available from 10-15 feet, and our good shooters are getting crowded because we're making little or no effort to get the ball into the post and suck in help defenders. We bucked all of those trends in the last game against the Cavs and actually looked competent for a change. I know you're mostly reacting facetiously here but I feel like there's room for us to carve out a playoff team with a traditional post defender, two guards on the floor instead of 3 or 4, and an athletic wing or two who can switch up or down a position defensively without getting torched. It might not be a team that gets picked to contend in pre-season but if they play defense well enough they can at least be above .500 which gets you into the playoffs. And if we can get there with young players there will be time to add pieces each off-season and slowly elevate our ceiling.

The Cavs are a prime example of attempting to buck trends though. When they win 2 championships in a row lets revisit. They are a gimmick team at this point and gimmicks can not totally suck if they have enough talent or athletic ability. They do in some respects. They are still a gimmick though relative to the modern game until they break the system. I hope they do.

 

[Groovygreg]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1481318203502448645

Bruski throwing his hat into the "something is gonna change" by the deadline

I hope so, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

 

[ESP47]

Jaylen Brown is a little Fox like if you ask me. Has similar impact stats. Better defender, worse offensive player. I don't think he would make the team better but it's possible.

 

[SLAB]

I hope so, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

Big Kent Bazemore for a future 2nd energy here!